Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Raptors are done!.....for the next 5 years!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    ibzilla wrote: View Post
    Agreed with almost everything you said. The point where you said Jay Triano was going with a "ball movement" type offense emphasizes my point. I saw the same interview and he said they weren't a run and gun team and later I saw an interview with one of the players and he said they were going to try to out run teams and play at a fast pace. The coach, gm, and players aren't on the same page as the team has no identity. Establishing that would be a good starting point and the blame should be placed solely on the GM. He had plenty of opportunities to succeed and ultimately failed. Its not like Toronto was the Knicks; he inherited a franchise that a good complimentary player (Bosh), a rookie of the year candidate and 7th overall pick (Charlie V), the number 1 pick in the draft and cap space and here we are years later worse off after giving the team several major changeovers (seemingly every year). Bad luck didn't send the Raptors down the drain for perhaps a decade, incompetence did. And you can't get lucky if you keep screwing up your fortunes
    After juSt looking back at the 2005 NBA draft, I think this is where the Raptors truely fell apart and made some horrible judgement calls. The raps could have had Andrew Bynum and Danny granger. Why the hell would they draft Charlie V who is also a PF at the time... things could have been very diferent.

    Comment


    • #17
      joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
      Takes one deal. Look at Boston. They were in the tank one year, won it the next. Takes ONE move.
      Actually, it was a whole series of events, not one move. Boston was trying to tank in order to be in a position to draft Oden or Durant. When it was revealed that they'd draft 5th, Ainge dealt the pick along with Delonte West and Wally Sczerbiak to Seattle for Allen. Originally, the Celtics were going after Garnett and offering up the 5th pick, but Garnett let it be known that he didn't want to go to Boston. When Boston acquired Allen, then Garnett's stance softened.

      Comment


      • #18
        pesterm1 wrote: View Post
        After juSt looking back at the 2005 NBA draft, I think this is where the Raptors truely fell apart and made some horrible judgement calls. The raps could have had Andrew Bynum and Danny granger. Why the hell would they draft Charlie V who is also a PF at the time... things could have been very diferent.
        The more horrible call was Babcock not trading the 7th, 16th pick and MoPete for the 4th pick.

        Comment


        • #19
          smushmush wrote: View Post
          A better GM would be Jerry West if MLSE is willing to pay money to bring him out of retirement or Kevin Pritchard on the cheap.
          Pritchard won't be going anywhere for cheap. Someone's gonna have to pay through the nose for him.

          Comment


          • #20
            ibzilla wrote: View Post
            Agreed with almost everything you said. The point where you said Jay Triano was going with a "ball movement" type offense emphasizes my point. I saw the same interview and he said they weren't a run and gun team and later I saw an interview with one of the players and he said they were going to try to out run teams and play at a fast pace. The coach, gm, and players aren't on the same page as the team has no identity. Establishing that would be a good starting point and the blame should be placed solely on the GM. He had plenty of opportunities to succeed and ultimately failed. Its not like Toronto was the Knicks; he inherited a franchise that a good complimentary player (Bosh), a rookie of the year candidate and 7th overall pick (Charlie V), the number 1 pick in the draft and cap space and here we are years later worse off after giving the team several major changeovers (seemingly every year). Bad luck didn't send the Raptors down the drain for perhaps a decade, incompetence did. And you can't get lucky if you keep screwing up your fortunes
            The moves Colangelo made when he came over was pretty clever. He tapped into a market most never did. Considering he was handcuffed by the amount of space he had - he COULDN'T go into luxury tax - the roster he assembled and the pieces he moved were pretty impressive. Bonner and Eric Williams for Nesterovic was a solid move, Araujo for Humphries was a very solid move. Going to Europe and signing Parker and Garbojosa were underrated moves. The only identity this team had was that it was they were going to play an uptempo style of game. We had one supporting cast star and a bunch of solid (- at best) players. Most general managers would have paid out the ass for Ben Wallace, who was the hottest name free agent out there. For what he had, I think the moves Colangelo pulled off were solid. Also, he's been one to quickly remedy any mistakes he makes (Fred Jones, O'Neal, Turkoglu). Now that we're not catering to a B-type superstar, this team can focus on playing team ball and collecting assets along and buidind a team the right way, from the ground up with solid young players with high ceilings.

            Comment


            • #21
              It won't take the Raptors 5 years to be of relevance. They'll be in the playoffs in another 2 seasons.

              Comment


              • #22
                MangoKid wrote: View Post
                It won't take the Raptors 5 years to be of relevance. They'll be in the playoffs in another 2 seasons.
                True but nothing more than an 8 seed waiting to be swept by Miami. I said 5 years because it will take that long to develop a superstar (assuming they draft one soon). It took Durant and Westbook 3 years overall but I doubt the raps can get two superstars in consecutive drafts hence 5 years or more.

                Comment


                • #23
                  ibzilla wrote: View Post
                  This is my take on watching the Raptors all this season and the past 11 years or so, give or take a couple of games.

                  There is no hope for playoffs or anything above an 7-8 seed for the next 5 years. Most likely this team will be in the lottery for the next half decade and this is the reason.
                  Over the next 5 years? That's a bit far fetched. You don;t know what the economic climate will look like after this season. The NBA could implement a hard cap and throw a monkeywrench into a lot of teams' plans.


                  ibzilla wrote: View Post
                  1. It starts up top, management can't seem to define an identity for the Raptors. Are they a run-and-gun team like the Suns? Or are they a gritty defensive team with some athletic players? Apparently BC choses to have the worst of both worlds, the lack of commitment to defense while attempting to run in vain because the athletic wings can't shoot and spread the floor. Until they decide on an identity, nothing will happen. And getting a head coach which players can respect can't hurt either. Getting a head coach with some pedigree is of utmost importance when building a team, not some assistant who is clearly overmatched every game. (ie pretty much every Raptor coach minus Lenny Wilkins)
                  You're right in the fact that this team does not have an identity. However, right now, they're on the right track by acquiring young, athletic talent through the draft and through trades. Getting household name coach shouldn't be the concern of this team right now. This team isn't at that point right now. The focus should be having a coach in place that is a teacher and who can develop young players. I wouldn't say that Jay is overmatched every game. Triano just doesn't have the talent level on his team that other teams have. At the moment, I'd say he's doing a very good job with what he has. By the way, in regards to previous Raptors' coaches, Butch Carter wasn't overmatched. Lenny by the end was overmatched. He didn't know what he was doing.

                  ibzilla wrote: View Post
                  2. Talent level- Anyone who thinks the Raptors have any talent needs to be honest with themselves. Yes they do have some ability, but not one Raptor is considered starting material on any playoff team. BC has accumulated a nice assortment of bench players and deemed 5 of them starters with the prime example being Calderon. Bargnani is a good sixth man due to his scoring ability and lack of ability to defend. The Evans/Amir combo and the Weems/Kleiza situation doesn't even need any explaination
                  Whoever said that the Raptors have amazing talent? The players have talent, we have young players who have the potential to be very good players. How do they take the step of becomming very good players? With a coach who can develop young talent. I disagree with your comments that Bargnani is a good sixth man. I say he's a very good starter in this league. WHo did the Raptors acquire to get Evans? Kapono. And what has Kapono done since he went to Philadelphia? Not much. Who did the Raptors give up to acquire Johnson? Delfino. What's Delfino saying this year? Not much. What about Weems? Ukic is not even in the league anymore.

                  ibzilla wrote: View Post
                  3. Cornerstone Players- They have none and haven't had any since Vince/Tmac era. Your best player on a team doesn't automatically make you a cornerstone player (ie Bosh) so I don't want to hear that it could happen. Franchise players are rare and getting the number 1 pick doesn't mean you will have one (Bargnani vs Dwight Howard). It takes a combination of luck and free agency to have a cornerstone player and no significant free agent will ever sign with Toronto. I repeat, NO SIGNIFICANT FREE AGENT WILL EVER SIGN WITH TORONTO so don't get your hopes up. I don't want to hear Turkoglu because he was aging and over-rated to begin with. I doubt without that EC Finals performance he would ever dreamed of getting 50 million. Now I'm sure some people will say Demar is a future cornerstone player but I'm pretty sure they are kidding themselves. If they are still serious I would ask them to watch tape on Demar and see if there is any significant improvement from last year to this year. His ceiling is lower than Andre Iguodala but I see him developing into a Ronnie Brewer type player. 3 years since high school and you hold your breath for every wide open jumper he takes.

                  I would consider Turkoglu a signficant free agent. He showed over the years in Orlando his ability to hit the big shot and to be clutch. He was voted most improved player one season and was considered a very good player. If you're signing a contract that's in excess of 10 million per season, I'd say it's a significant signing. And for you to say that no significant free agent will ever sign with Toronto is a very shoddy statement. If the Raptors start winning, you will have flocks of players wanting to sign here. Winning cures everything. Most players love Toronto as it is.
                  Demar isn't a future cornerstone player. He could develop into a very good player - and shows glimpses of it. He's still only 21 and learning. If Demar develops into a Ronnie Brewer player, I wouldn't be disappointed with that. Brewer is a very good player. Demar's ceiling is probably 17-18 ppg with 4-5 board and 2-3 assists. So really, he could be just like Iguodala. The athleticism is there. He just has to have a tighter handle and keep working on his jumper.

                  ibzilla wrote: View Post
                  4. Cap Space- Not the most important aspect but can't be overlooked either. If you are going by the blueprint of building a contender there are two choices ; build a solid 9 man rotation in which 4 of them are considered NBA all stars or fight, scratch and claw (tank) for the right to draft/sign a franchise player and build thereafter. You could choose the first option and attempt to get you hands on 4 all-stars but its nearly impossible unless you get real lucky. Its how Detroit was built and probably will never happen again.The latter is the method most employed by NBA teams. Thats how almost every team turns into a contender. You save the cap space and once you have that player you find complementary pieces around him in free-agency or trade. Its why Orlando signed Lewis to a massive contract once Dwight was drafted. The Raptors decided to lock up their cap space with guys like Andrea,Kleiza, Amir, Hedo ect ect. The problem with that strategy is obvious, what happens to Bargnani if you draft someone better than him? Trading him seems simple but you will have to accept equal dollars back on a trade for players who might not fit. Before handing out any contract above 2 million EVERY GM has to ask themselves these same 2 questions if not signing a superstar.
                  1. Do I have a superstar?-If YES- Does this free agent complement his game?
                  2. Do I have a superstar?-If NO- Put the money back in your wallet and continue looking for one
                  Detroit was built on 4-all stars? What 4 all-stars? They weren't all-stars when they came to Detroit. Ben Wallace was a throw-in and an after-thought. Richard Hamilton was spinning his wheels in Washington. Billups was a solid signing, but he wasn't an all-star.
                  Those guys happened to mesh, they created an identity and with the right coach made it far.
                  The Raptors locked up guys like Bargnani (who would have received more than 10M on the open market), Kleiza to decent contracts. The Johnson signing was a tad excessive, but it wasn't overblown excessive. The gamble is that Johnson's game will improve and will grow with the team. That isn't a waste of cap space.

                  The comment that made me laugh so hard was...
                  2. Do I have a superstar?-If NO- Put the money back in your wallet and continue looking for one
                  Yet, the comment before, you said..
                  I repeat, NO SIGNIFICANT FREE AGENT WILL EVER SIGN WITH TORONTO so don't get your hopes up.
                  Oh my goodness. I needed that one. Because, you know, superstars grow on trees and they're easily attainable, yet none are going to ever sign in Toronto. Well, which one is it?


                  ibzilla wrote: View Post
                  My main point is that the Raptors have made mind-blowing mistakes that placed them in the situation they are in now starting with not signing Tmac to an extension years ago. BC has compounded on those mistakes and thus should be fired. Its my belief that the moves he made in the offseason were not for the health of the franchise but rather his job security. If the Raptors have any hope is that they are going to be higher level lottery material for a few years giving them a chance at a top pick. Until then, they should blow the team up and start over. Oklahoma City has showed fans the blueprint, its up to Toronto to follow it or settle for nothing higher than 7-8 seed forever.
                  Mind-blowing mistakes? Not signing McGrady? I'm sorry, how many teams has McGrady lead to past the 1st round of the playoffs?
                  McGrady never wanted to re-sign here. He didn't like the cold and he didn't like the fact that he had to pay taxes.
                  Your comments are all over the damn place. However, what I gathered from it was a rant that's just out of frustration for how they're performing this season. Any knowledgable fan would know that this team was going to struggle more often than not this year and that this season was all about learning and developing.
                  The Raptors are on the right track. You want to build a team that's going to compete year in and out for the Eastern Conference title, not some band-aid fix that's going to get them a perennial 7th-8th seed before bowing out.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    MangoKid wrote: View Post
                    The moves Colangelo made when he came over was pretty clever. He tapped into a market most never did. Considering he was handcuffed by the amount of space he had - he COULDN'T go into luxury tax - the roster he assembled and the pieces he moved were pretty impressive. Bonner and Eric Williams for Nesterovic was a solid move, Araujo for Humphries was a very solid move. Going to Europe and signing Parker and Garbojosa were underrated moves. The only identity this team had was that it was they were going to play an uptempo style of game. We had one supporting cast star and a bunch of solid (- at best) players. Most general managers would have paid out the ass for Ben Wallace, who was the hottest name free agent out there. For what he had, I think the moves Colangelo pulled off were solid. Also, he's been one to quickly remedy any mistakes he makes (Fred Jones, O'Neal, Turkoglu). Now that we're not catering to a B-type superstar, this team can focus on playing team ball and collecting assets along and buidind a team the right way, from the ground up with solid young players with high ceilings.
                    sorry mango, doesnt matter how many times you explain it, donks here see Colangelo's moves as all failures because of O'Neal, Turk and Bosh leaving. Ive explained a million times that his acquisitions were right at the time they were made, but just didnt pan out. And you cant put that against him because he is not a fortune teller, he cant predict the future. Of course if he had known Turk would be a baby, Bosh would leave and JO would be injured half the time then of course he wouldve made different moves. But if he knew all that then he'd probably just pick the winning number in lottomax and sit on a beach somewhere for the rest of his life.

                    ive had it with moves. IMO, leave the core, get a SG/SF who can create his own shot and a shot-blocking, defensive C and we're all good. Let the team grow with each other, let the coach grow with the team. Leave Bayless, Jose, DD, Amir, Davis and Bargs and get rid of the rest. This is the core. Id put Weems in there if they gave him an extension earlier, but it seems he might not even get it. Weems is good right now coz well, there's nobody else trying to do anything in this team, but put him with the spurs or lakers and he'll probably texting Banks and asking for advice on how not to get bored at the end of the bench.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      ibzilla wrote: View Post
                      True but nothing more than an 8 seed waiting to be swept by Miami. I said 5 years because it will take that long to develop a superstar (assuming they draft one soon). It took Durant and Westbook 3 years overall but I doubt the raps can get two superstars in consecutive drafts hence 5 years or more.

                      2 more seasons with the way Demar, Andrea, Ed and Jerryd are playing and will continue to progress, there's no way that they'd be a number 8 seed.

                      Your notion of having 2 superstars in order to compete is ridiculous.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        ibzilla wrote: View Post
                        True but nothing more than an 8 seed waiting to be swept by Miami. I said 5 years because it will take that long to develop a superstar (assuming they draft one soon). It took Durant and Westbook 3 years overall but I doubt the raps can get two superstars in consecutive drafts hence 5 years or more.
                        I agree with Mango. Eventhough 2 years seems to be far-fetched, 2 years should be the end all be all.
                        You cant wait for 5 years. Amir will be 28, DD 25, Jose 35, bargs, 28. if they become a contender in 5 years then yeah thats worth it, but to reach the playoffs or even the 2nd round, that would be missing the target.
                        if they keep getting young guys and wait for them to develop, by the time they develop, the other guys in the team who used to be the ones being developed, will be old. if they keep doing this, then the raps are just going to be a farm team.

                        IMO, we cant keep getting guys and developing them and get them to be the focal point of the team. ALL the players have to develop at the same pace, otherwise, one comes up and sticks out against the others, that player will leave. Bosh, Tmas, Carter....go figure. Develop the team, create chemistry and wins will come.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          tbihis wrote: View Post
                          I agree with Mango. Eventhough 2 years seems to be far-fetched, 2 years should be the end all be all.
                          You cant wait for 5 years. Amir will be 28, DD 25, Jose 35, bargs, 28. if they become a contender in 5 years then yeah thats worth it, but to reach the playoffs or even the 2nd round, that would be missing the target.
                          if they keep getting young guys and wait for them to develop, by the time they develop, the other guys in the team who used to be the ones being developed, will be old. if they keep doing this, then the raps are just going to be a farm team.

                          IMO, we cant keep getting guys and developing them and get them to be the focal point of the team. ALL the players have to develop at the same pace, otherwise, one comes up and sticks out against the others, that player will leave. Bosh, Tmas, Carter....go figure. Develop the team, create chemistry and wins will come.
                          Well said. I believe that if Colangelo is going to make a good impact on the team (and he must) then he has to has to has to get first round draft picks with whatever deals he makes. TRading our "bad players" (as they have been called) will not bring back good players. That is the only way we can improve.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            MangoKid wrote: View Post
                            The more horrible call was Babcock not trading the 7th, 16th pick and MoPete for the 4th pick.
                            He would have just drafted Hoffa at 4 anyway...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              ihatehaters wrote: View Post
                              He would have just drafted Hoffa at 4 anyway...
                              That wasn't the Araujo draft. That was the year before.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I don't agree with many of the points.

                                5 years? Maybe. Who knows.

                                T-mac did not want to re-sign here.

                                BC has 2 GM awards in 9 seasons of being a GM to prove he is a good start at management. He has made some blunders, but his record has more winners, and not easy winners like drafting John Wall or Kevin Durant. The identity and franchise the last two years was built around one Chris Bosh. He is gone. The team is obviously taking on a new identity - younger, athletic, push the ball. It is definitely unconventional building around Bargnani but D'Antoni has been unconventional with a lot of success. Unfortunately, dealing with Kobe and Duncan has been a thorn in his side.

                                There is talent but no there is no franchise talent. Bargnani is a good second option, great third option. Davis is raw but promising. Weems is useless. Amir is great off the bench. Bayless is showing some real promise, maybe not greatness but very good nonetheless. People tend to forget about these guys coming out of college after 1 year and then after 3 years pro, they are really college seniors. I am losing faith on anything great from DD - if he can be included to get OJ Mayo, do it! The problem the Raptors have had is since Bargnani they haven't drafted high. The lower end of the lottery is the ultimate kick in the balls - not good enough for playoffs, not bad enough to get some real prospects. There is a lot of complimentary talent on this team - there are no go-to guys and certainly no franchise player (of which there are really only 5-6 in the game with 2 playing on the same team!).

                                Free agency is probably not the place to find your franchise player but you can certainly add some pieces. Cap space is a necessity. Look at Portland with Roy and Aldrige, WSH with Arenas, PHI with Brand and AI to name a couple - mediocre teams with no cap space and bad contracts nobody wants to take on.

                                I might agree there is five years between playoff apperances for the Raps but I do not agree with 5 more years.

                                This thread is a rant over a young team that is struggling to perform consistently and has of late struggled with 2 key injuries.
                                Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Dec 17, 2010, 03:29 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X