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Thread: Raptors are done!.....for the next 5 years!

  1. #41
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    Is there truth to this? Sure. But it's applicable to almost half the teams in the league. Considering the noise post season mostly comes from the same teams every year, that's the power hierarchy of the NBA. There are obvious exceptions to the rule but I don't think that justifies us getting all weepy and doomsday.

    We are no where near as bad as we were predicted to be this year. We picked Bayless up for a song. We have incredible financial flexibility going forward. We got completely hosed by Jordan, which would have given us a defensive centre and a multidimensional (chubby, couldn't resist) SF. Not Colangelo's fault but man I would have loved to have seen that team hit the floor and see what it could have done.

    If that ONE trade had gone through I think we would have been a respectable team this year. So who knows what the future holds and what is going to happen. The real key to this is, who cares? Do you want to watch the games? Watch them. Enjoy the games. If you tie up your personal identity in whether a rebuilding team wins and it starts effecting your day to day, then bandwagon on a winning team. It's like we all know we're going to die someday, but if we sit around and think about it then we could miss a lot of wicked and amazing things.

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    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Takes one deal. Look at Boston. They were in the tank one year, won it the next. Takes ONE move.
    True, but that's not realistic and one shouldn't bank on moves like those happening. Those happen once every 10-15 years and it's not going to happen to the Raptors.

    What is more possible is the Raptors striking it in the draft with a lottery pick ala Vince Carter. If we get top five picks for three straight years, the chances of us selecting a damn good player increase considerably. That is probably as short a cut to contention/respectability than anything. The only other way is if one of the players we have blossoms into something great, but that's not looking likely other than Bargnani, and he's got some consistency issues.

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    Quote grindhouse wrote: View Post
    I can't argue much but it taking 5 years but I would much rather see a system built in Toronto the wait for a franchise player, Utah is a perfect example it doesn't matter whether it malone or boozer or Jefferson or milsap the system is the same and it works.
    I agree to a point, but the Jazz have a crapload more talent. Crap. Load. Deron Williams? Al Jefferson? AK? And a HoF coach. Put our players in that system and you're not winning games.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The most forgotten truth in recent basketball history. There is no doubt he is a good coach, though. Just another example that winning cures all.
    Perfectly said. Winning makes you great. 15 wins in a season gets you fitted for cement footwear. Doc was lucky he had friends in high places.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    This team is essentially an 8th seed this year, why would they be an 8 seed still 5 years from now?

    -Believe it or not Colangelo is a top 5 general manager in the league.
    -Yes, this team does have a system, its not the coaches fault that this team is young and inexperienced.
    -Can this team be a top 3 eastern conference team? Not without 1+ all star's and that's their problem.
    -"You canít run from me. I mean, my heart donít bleed Kool-Aid."
    -"ďI ainít no diva! I donít have no blond hair, red hair. Iím Reggie Evans.Ē

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    True, but that's not realistic and one shouldn't bank on moves like those happening. Those happen once every 10-15 years and it's not going to happen to the Raptors.

    What is more possible is the Raptors striking it in the draft with a lottery pick ala Vince Carter. If we get top five picks for three straight years, the chances of us selecting a damn good player increase considerably. That is probably as short a cut to contention/respectability than anything. The only other way is if one of the players we have blossoms into something great, but that's not looking likely other than Bargnani, and he's got some consistency issues.
    I agree. I read that other article earlier today about how we're goin to buy Peja's contract out and I think that's crazy. Why aren't we looking to trade it and get some first round picks? Who cares what else we get with it, those picks are what we need to get better long term. If we have to overpay someone for the next 2 or 3 years, who cares. The most important thing we can do is stock pile picks.

  7. #47
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    I'll use Michael Jordan to argue it will actually be more than 5 years before we're a top 5 or conference finals team. It's a ridiculous argument, but so what, sports are ridiculous anyway.

    Close your eyes and imagine we draft the next Jordan in 2011. That's right, the GOAT. Part II. Read a bit more before you wet yourself with imaginary glee.

    We wouldn't be that much different from the Chicago Bulls of 1983.

    Right now we don't have any elite talent at any position, we don't have an all-star (Barg's recent play may have him in the conversation, however), a great defender, knock-down shooter or shot blocker. We don't have any developmental guys on the bench -- we do, however, have guys other teams would bench.

    Dress it up how you like, but this Raptors unit is a pretty lousy team. One that could use the second coming of the do-it-all, come fly with me, best that ever was. So lets pretend we got one.

    Trouble is, it took Papa GOAT 6 years to win a championship (actually to even make the finals). Do you think we'd win faster?

    Rookie Jordan would go flying around and we'd lose games, then a few less games for the next year or two. Then Toronto Jordan (Tordan?) would dominate and sell shoes like Kardashian sells sex tapes, we'd shed our current group, this city's losing mentality, and hear Marv Albert talking about the CN Tower.

    Only our Jordan would be up against a 31-year-old LeBron and a 28-year-old Durant who still might not have won a chip. What about Dwight Howard? Blake Griffin? We might not even get out of the second round (see Rockets, Houston), never mind get to a finals.

    It could be 8 or 9 years before we're a sure thing and that's with a prodigious imaginary talent! Floating back to earth, what's a realistic timeline look like?

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    Quote Copywryter wrote: View Post
    I'll use Michael Jordan to argue it will actually be more than 5 years before we're a top 5 or conference finals team. It's a ridiculous argument, but so what, sports are ridiculous anyway.

    Close your eyes and imagine we draft the next Jordan in 2011. That's right, the GOAT. Part II. Read a bit more before you wet yourself with imaginary glee.

    We wouldn't be that much different from the Chicago Bulls of 1983.

    Right now we don't have any elite talent at any position, we don't have an all-star (Barg's recent play may have him in the conversation, however), a great defender, knock-down shooter or shot blocker. We don't have any developmental guys on the bench -- we do, however, have guys other teams would bench.

    Dress it up how you like, but this Raptors unit is a pretty lousy team. One that could use the second coming of the do-it-all, come fly with me, best that ever was. So lets pretend we got one.

    Trouble is, it took Papa GOAT 6 years to win a championship (actually to even make the finals). Do you think we'd win faster?

    Rookie Jordan would go flying around and we'd lose games, then a few less games for the next year or two. Then Toronto Jordan (Tordan?) would dominate and sell shoes like Kardashian sells sex tapes, we'd shed our current group, this city's losing mentality, and hear Marv Albert talking about the CN Tower.

    Only our Jordan would be up against a 31-year-old LeBron and a 28-year-old Durant who still might not have won a chip. What about Dwight Howard? Blake Griffin? We might not even get out of the second round (see Rockets, Houston), never mind get to a finals.

    It could be 8 or 9 years before we're a sure thing and that's with a prodigious imaginary talent! Floating back to earth, what's a realistic timeline look like?

    I'm not trying to be funny or anything but aliens will invade the earth before there is another Jordan and anyone who challenges that statement has not watched basketball in the 90's. I understand your point and we agree that it will take a while but I"m being optimistic that they can draft a star player in one in the next 4 drafts. Its not hard to surround a great player with a supporting cast to take you to the conference finals, especially in the East. Miami went to the finals with Wade, old Shaq, and Antoine Walker. The hard part is getting a "Wade" in the draft.
    Last edited by ibzilla; Sat Dec 18th, 2010 at 10:37 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    True, but that's not realistic and one shouldn't bank on moves like those happening. Those happen once every 10-15 years and it's not going to happen to the Raptors.

    What is more possible is the Raptors striking it in the draft with a lottery pick ala Vince Carter. If we get top five picks for three straight years, the chances of us selecting a damn good player increase considerably. That is probably as short a cut to contention/respectability than anything. The only other way is if one of the players we have blossoms into something great, but that's not looking likely other than Bargnani, and he's got some consistency issues.
    Finally someone who sees the light. I have been arguing that point for days and at least one person agrees with me. Its going to take years in the lottery and considering there is 1 or 2 allstars in every draft, the chance that the raptors happen one is little but will increase as years go on. Its possible they can get lucky 2 years in a row, but extremely unlikely

  10. #50
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    This team is essentially an 8th seed this year, why would they be an 8 seed still 5 years from now?

    -Believe it or not Colangelo is a top 5 general manager in the league.
    -Yes, this team does have a system, its not the coaches fault that this team is young and inexperienced.
    -Can this team be a top 3 eastern conference team? Not without 1+ all star's and that's their problem.
    I don't believe BC is a top 5 gm since he got here to toronto. All the "great" moves has been to repair the disastrous moves he made in the first place. His best move was his first one (Charlie V for T.J) and it's been downhill ever since. He gave out bad contracts to players who didn't deserve it (Calderon, and almost every single contract signed). I'm surprised Weems hasn't signed a 30 mill extension by now to be honest. He is building a franchise with no identity. He acquired O'neal and still wanted the team to play up tempo considering O'Neal is a half-court player. Now O'Neal ended up being a shell of his former self but it was still a risky trade to make considering he was coming off a serious knee injury. And he threw in a first round pick which turned out to be Roy Hibbert (who might make the all star team). He fired Sam Mitchell despite an 8-9 record in my belief because Sam did not want to play Bargnani because of his lack of commitment to defense as shortly after Jay took over Bargnani's minutes exploded and so did the points (and the losses). He quickly turns around and trades away O'Neal for Marion (and we threw in another first round pick) and the team starts winning as he really did fit the system. Marion said he believed they would have made the playoffs had he been in town the whole season. So after Marion, he hands a 50 mill contract to Hedo. Now, I know most of us were exited that Hedo was joining the team, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who shivered of the thought of handing a 5 year contract to a 30 year old who had been declining every season since his MIP award. I know he was a top 5 GM but i think he left his knowledge in Phoenix

  11. #51
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    I'll give him credit for the Bayless trade and the attempted Calderon trade. But 2 good decisions in 4 seasons isn't top 5 stuff

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    And I could easily argue his bad decisions outweigh his good ones. Mid level for Kapono? And he should have taken that Bosh for Bynum trade if it was on the table. You may think I'm just being sour grapes about Bosh but I was saying it while they were in the hunt. Bosh was not worth a max contract especially with a new CBA coming up. Moving Bargnani to the 4 is of utmost importance if you want to have a shot at even making the playoffs and Bosh wasn't the answer. It was rumored but nowadays sports journalism is on a different level.

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    And I could easily argue his bad decisions outweigh his good ones. Mid level for Kapono? And he should have taken that Bosh for Bynum trade if it was on the table. You may think I'm just being sour grapes about Bosh but I was saying it while they were in the hunt. Bosh was not worth a max contract especially with a new CBA coming up. Moving Bargnani to the 4 is of utmost importance if you want to have a shot at even making the playoffs and Bosh wasn't the answer. It was rumored but nowadays sports journalism is on a different level.
    Bosh for Bynum was never on the table.

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    I'm not trying to be funny or anything but aliens will invade the earth before there is another Jordan and anyone who challenges that statement has not watched basketball in the 90's. I understand your point and we agree that it will take a while but I"m being optimistic that they can draft a star player in one in the next 4 drafts. Its not hard to surround a great player with a supporting cast to take you to the conference finals, especially in the East. Miami went to the finals with Wade, old Shaq, and Antoine Walker. The hard part is getting a "Wade" in the draft.
    Stop with this needing to draft 15 all-stars to be relevant bullshit. It's sickening.
    Miami went to the finals with not just Wade, Shaq was still averaging 20-10 and they had one of the greatest coaches of all-time leading them.

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    I don't believe BC is a top 5 gm since he got here to toronto. All the "great" moves has been to repair the disastrous moves he made in the first place. His best move was his first one (Charlie V for T.J) and it's been downhill ever since. He gave out bad contracts to players who didn't deserve it (Calderon, and almost every single contract signed). I'm surprised Weems hasn't signed a 30 mill extension by now to be honest. He is building a franchise with no identity. He acquired O'neal and still wanted the team to play up tempo considering O'Neal is a half-court player. Now O'Neal ended up being a shell of his former self but it was still a risky trade to make considering he was coming off a serious knee injury. And he threw in a first round pick which turned out to be Roy Hibbert (who might make the all star team). He fired Sam Mitchell despite an 8-9 record in my belief because Sam did not want to play Bargnani because of his lack of commitment to defense as shortly after Jay took over Bargnani's minutes exploded and so did the points (and the losses). He quickly turns around and trades away O'Neal for Marion (and we threw in another first round pick) and the team starts winning as he really did fit the system. Marion said he believed they would have made the playoffs had he been in town the whole season. So after Marion, he hands a 50 mill contract to Hedo. Now, I know most of us were exited that Hedo was joining the team, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who shivered of the thought of handing a 5 year contract to a 30 year old who had been declining every season since his MIP award. I know he was a top 5 GM but i think he left his knowledge in Phoenix


    When Colangelo came here, he was cleaning up his own mess? He came here, made good use of the cap space he had with outside of the box moves. He was rewarded for it with an executive of the year award. The O'Neal move was made because Rasho was slowing down, the team was in a win-now mode and they wanted to appease to Bosh. The move wasn't as good as anticipated and was swapped to Miami (we ended up getting out pick back in the Bosh deal anyways). Our first round pick had we kept it wouldn't have been Hibbert. It would have been JJ Hickson. Colangelo handed a 50-million dollar to contract to Hedo right after he had a spectacular playoff run in Orlando. Colangelo wasn't the only one that thought that he was worthy of it. Kevin Pritchard (who seems to be everyone's darlong around here) was on the verge of handing Hedo a similar contract until Colangelo came in with a few million more. You dump on Colangelo, but there are 2 other teams who have gambled on Turkoglu since leaving Toronto. Orlando still believes that he can play at a high level.

    As I've said in the past, Colangelo makes mistakes (as does every manager - not every GM turns shit into gold in every transaction), but he's made far more hits than misses. He's also quick to remedy his mistakes.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    When Colangelo came here, he was cleaning up his own mess? He came here, made good use of the cap space he had with outside of the box moves. He was rewarded for it with an executive of the year award. The O'Neal move was made because Rasho was slowing down, the team was in a win-now mode and they wanted to appease to Bosh. The move wasn't as good as anticipated and was swapped to Miami (we ended up getting out pick back in the Bosh deal anyways). Our first round pick had we kept it wouldn't have been Hibbert. It would have been JJ Hickson. Colangelo handed a 50-million dollar to contract to Hedo right after he had a spectacular playoff run in Orlando. Colangelo wasn't the only one that thought that he was worthy of it. Kevin Pritchard (who seems to be everyone's darlong around here) was on the verge of handing Hedo a similar contract until Colangelo came in with a few million more. You dump on Colangelo, but there are 2 other teams who have gambled on Turkoglu since leaving Toronto. Orlando still believes that he can play at a high level.

    As I've said in the past, Colangelo makes mistakes (as does every manager - not every GM turns shit into gold in every transaction), but he's made far more hits than misses. He's also quick to remedy his mistakes.
    My point is that every "good" trade he makes is cleaning up his own mess.

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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    This team is essentially an 8th seed this year, why would they be an 8 seed still 5 years from now?

    -Believe it or not Colangelo is a top 5 general manager in the league. -Yes, this team does have a system, its not the coaches fault that this team is young and inexperienced.
    -Can this team be a top 3 eastern conference team? Not without 1+ all star's and that's their problem.
    rite bc is way better than the gm of the:

    celtics
    spurs
    lakers
    thunder
    heat
    magic
    hawks
    bucks
    jazz
    knicks
    mavs
    bulls

    none of the other gms have ever won an EOY or won even close to 3 playoff games in 4 years...
    Last edited by Legalize-It; Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 01:16 PM.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    True, but that's not realistic and one shouldn't bank on moves like those happening. Those happen once every 10-15 years and it's not going to happen to the Raptors.

    What is more possible is the Raptors striking it in the draft with a lottery pick ala Vince Carter. If we get top five picks for three straight years, the chances of us selecting a damn good player increase considerably. That is probably as short a cut to contention/respectability than anything. The only other way is if one of the players we have blossoms into something great, but that's not looking likely other than Bargnani, and he's got some consistency issues.
    I absolutely agree. But I use Boston as an example of a team who's system was very much at the same point ours is now. A team, management, coaching staff, fanbase all surely a little on edge, and in one off-season, everything changed. All promising young prospects gone, new veteran talent in. It's a formula that has been used for years with varying degrees of success, but it no less worth the gamble if an All-Star(s) become available at the deadline.
    And as for the draft, I again completely agree, but at this rate, we are not bad enough to get a top 4 pick, nor are we good to truly content for a title. We are in the limbo known as mediocrity. Which is sometimes worse off then being just plain old bad.

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    I don't believe BC is a top 5 gm since he got here to toronto. All the "great" moves has been to repair the disastrous moves he made in the first place. His best move was his first one (Charlie V for T.J) and it's been downhill ever since. He gave out bad contracts to players who didn't deserve it (Calderon, and almost every single contract signed). I'm surprised Weems hasn't signed a 30 mill extension by now to be honest. He is building a franchise with no identity. He acquired O'neal and still wanted the team to play up tempo considering O'Neal is a half-court player. Now O'Neal ended up being a shell of his former self but it was still a risky trade to make considering he was coming off a serious knee injury. And he threw in a first round pick which turned out to be Roy Hibbert (who might make the all star team). He fired Sam Mitchell despite an 8-9 record in my belief because Sam did not want to play Bargnani because of his lack of commitment to defense as shortly after Jay took over Bargnani's minutes exploded and so did the points (and the losses). He quickly turns around and trades away O'Neal for Marion (and we threw in another first round pick) and the team starts winning as he really did fit the system. Marion said he believed they would have made the playoffs had he been in town the whole season. So after Marion, he hands a 50 mill contract to Hedo. Now, I know most of us were exited that Hedo was joining the team, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who shivered of the thought of handing a 5 year contract to a 30 year old who had been declining every season since his MIP award. I know he was a top 5 GM but i think he left his knowledge in Phoenix
    Calderon did deserve his contract IMO. He was on track to become one of the best PGs in the league until he was hit by injuries. It's easy to forget how great Jose was.
    And people have to stop bringing up Roy Hibbert because even if we kept the pick, there was a 0% chance we would have drafted him. It was already made clear that they would have drafted JJ Hickson (if available, and eventually was) if they had kept the pick.
    And about Hedo, yes we all felt like $50M/5 years was a lot, considering he was 30. But he brought a superstar free-agent to Toronto, which is no small feat. Yes it was a failure, but many wanted Turkoglu and offered the same amount of money, and we snatched him from Portland.
    And I don't think Smitch's style suited Toronto anyways, Bargnani gets minutes because he is our best player. And is definitely our best center. So instead of Bargnani, who would you start? They tried to trade for Chandler which would have probably put Bargnani on the bench, so he's not just giving minutes to him. And if he was put at the PF his minutes would have been decreased.

    Most people look at all the mistakes he has made, but many don't really think about how remarkably he has comeback from them. Everyone makes mistakes, what's important is being able to take control and responsability of the situation and make it right again. In every bad trade/signing he managed to get something back. Hedo for Barbosa was a great trade. The trades for Weems and Amir weren't bad either, the trade for Bayless, how he got Marion he has always recovered from his mistakes. No one makes no mistakes. And I consider him a pretty good GM for being able to recover, instead of leaving us in a bad situation. You might say, 'well he put is in that situation' well it happens. It's a risk, if the risk would have paid off all of you would be praising him for all the great things he did. If we hypothetically won a championship after signing Hedo we would all say 'all hail Colangelo' so I don't think it's fair to critisize him too much. He is a good GM.

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Calderon did deserve his contract IMO. He was on track to become one of the best PGs in the league until he was hit by injuries. It's easy to forget how great Jose was.
    And people have to stop bringing up Roy Hibbert because even if we kept the pick, there was a 0% chance we would have drafted him. It was already made clear that they would have drafted JJ Hickson (if available, and eventually was) if they had kept the pick.
    And about Hedo, yes we all felt like $50M/5 years was a lot, considering he was 30. But he brought a superstar free-agent to Toronto, which is no small feat. Yes it was a failure, but many wanted Turkoglu and offered the same amount of money, and we snatched him from Portland.
    And I don't think Smitch's style suited Toronto anyways, Bargnani gets minutes because he is our best player. And is definitely our best center. So instead of Bargnani, who would you start? They tried to trade for Chandler which would have probably put Bargnani on the bench, so he's not just giving minutes to him. And if he was put at the PF his minutes would have been decreased.

    Most people look at all the mistakes he has made, but many don't really think about how remarkably he has comeback from them. Everyone makes mistakes, what's important is being able to take control and responsability of the situation and make it right again. In every bad trade/signing he managed to get something back. Hedo for Barbosa was a great trade. The trades for Weems and Amir weren't bad either, the trade for Bayless, how he got Marion he has always recovered from his mistakes. No one makes no mistakes. And I consider him a pretty good GM for being able to recover, instead of leaving us in a bad situation. You might say, 'well he put is in that situation' well it happens. It's a risk, if the risk would have paid off all of you would be praising him for all the great things he did. If we hypothetically won a championship after signing Hedo we would all say 'all hail Colangelo' so I don't think it's fair to critisize him too much. He is a good GM.
    I do not disagree with any of this.
    Except the part about Sam Mitchell. I will always be a little miffed by that.
    He was tough the young guys, but thats what you need. You need someone with a voice.
    He had one and then some.

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