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Thread: The myopia of Toronto Raptor fans- Starting 5 grades compared to the NBA/ Projection

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    Default The myopia of Toronto Raptor fans- Starting 5 grades compared to the NBA/ Projection

    I'm an optimist by nature so this may seem strange considering what I'm saying. This team needs to be blown up and that starts with the gm and head coach. I find it fascinating reading articles stating that Bargnani is having a decent year, or Derozan needs more time or perhaps this team has a future because Bayless and Ed Davis can be productive.
    I'm a big raptor fan, but I"m also an NBA fan as I watch many non-Raptor games every night so I can see and compare to what we have here. Toronto has a bunch of role players and nothing more. This is my take on the Raptors starting 5 with comparison to the rest of the league.

    Jose Calderon- Is having a decent season, probably the only player valuable to other teams as he is a capable guard coming off the bench (if he wasn't overpaid that is). His defense has improved since last season and can be a decent starter only on a team that plays great help defense with a pick-and-pop big. He's a guy Raptor fans take their anger out on but will regret it if he goes to the right team.
    GRADE- C+ Best Fit: Possible starter Portland Trailblazers (assuming Andre is gone) and Timberwolves

    Demar Derozan- Not a true shooting guard based on his skill set. Inability to shoot past 10 feet (37%), slightly above average finisher at the rim but can't get there consistently due to his weak ball handling skills. Not a great defender, but has the tools to be. Doesn't demand the ball during the flow of a game and settles for what he gets.
    GRADE- D+ Best fit: NONE Demar isn't a legitimate starting 2 guard in the NBA. There are teams that have 2 guards not as talented as him starting (ie Keith Bogans) but those are acknowledged as temporary stop gaps until they can trade or sign one
    PROJECTION: Ronnie Brewer. Demar is a A- athlete but it serves no purpose as he can't get to the line or the rim enough to utilize that athletic ability. His shooting may improve but his skill set is raw. Demar's ceiling is probably a Gerald Wallace type of game at the 2 with rebounding defense and blocking shots his strengths.

    SF POSITION: This has been a platoon between Linas and Weems, both of which couldn't grasp the starting position for a losing team which speaks volumes about the hole the Raptors have. Neither player would be considered a starter on all NBA teams. Linas has played better of late, but his game is coming off the bench and providing scoring as he did in Denver. He'll put up better numbers than he did in Denver due to the minutes and more shots, but he's a role player and Toronto clearly overpaid for him.
    GRADE - D- (I didn't give an F only because Travis Outlaw and Marvin Williams are starters in the league) Best Fit: Bench
    PROJECTION: Cross your fingers Toronto ends up with Perry Jones next season.

    Amir Johnson/Reggie Evans: I can't hate on Reggie as he's one of the best rebounders in the league and Toronto acknowledges his starting was temporary but Amir was handed starter money in free agency and although his game is very useful it's obvious he isn't a starter due to the sheer number of fouls he takes. He can be a solid starter in the league only with a true point guard and a big man to rebound. He's arguably played the best out of all the Raptors this season although he's failed to stay on the court long enough consistently.
    GRADE - B - This position hasn't been the Raptor's weakness as they rebounded well and played good enough defense. Best Fit- Amir would be a great fit in Milwaukee as he and Bogut would be a fearsome combo on the defensive end.

    Andrea- Where can I start with this guy? He's the Jamal Crawford at the center position. A guy who provides offense on tough shots, doesn't play defense enough to be a starter and best suited to come off the bench as a sixth man. Very few 7 footers can score like he can but it doesn't matter when the opposition comes right down the lane for an easier score. To his defense, he's really a 4 playing the 5 so I can't place 100% of the blame on him, but when Rodney Stuckey, a 6-4 guard, out muscles you for a rebound as he did last game it makes me wonder if it will be any different if he played the 4. Toronto fans get on Calderon so much for not playing defense but compared to Andrea he's Rondo. Andrea is a SF playing the center position and that problem needs to be addressed. Offensively, he's a third option, second at best. His career high year is due to the abundance of shots he takes compared to last year as his PER barely breaks 17.
    GRADE - C- : When all the team numbers get better when he's on the bench that should sound the alarm to BC to possibly trade him. The opposing team's production is at 115 per 100 possessions when he's on the court!
    Best fit: Sixth Man for most NBA teams.
    Projection: He's nothing more than a gunner at this point and probably won't get any better. Raptor fans better learn to enjoy lottery years because he's signed for 5 more years

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    I'm an optimist by nature so this may seem strange considering what I'm saying. This team needs to be blown up and that starts with the gm and head coach. I find it fascinating reading articles stating that Bargnani is having a decent year, or Derozan needs more time or perhaps this team has a future because Bayless and Ed Davis can be productive.
    I'm a big raptor fan, but I"m also an NBA fan as I watch many non-Raptor games every night so I can see and compare to what we have here. Toronto has a bunch of role players and nothing more. This is my take on the Raptors starting 5 with comparison to the rest of the league.

    Jose Calderon- Is having a decent season, probably the only player valuable to other teams as he is a capable guard coming off the bench (if he wasn't overpaid that is). His defense has improved since last season and can be a decent starter only on a team that plays great help defense with a pick-and-pop big. He's a guy Raptor fans take their anger out on but will regret it if he goes to the right team.
    GRADE- C+ Best Fit: Possible starter Portland Trailblazers (assuming Andre is gone) and Timberwolves

    Demar Derozan- Not a true shooting guard based on his skill set. Inability to shoot past 10 feet (37%), slightly above average finisher at the rim but can't get there consistently due to his weak ball handling skills. Not a great defender, but has the tools to be. Doesn't demand the ball during the flow of a game and settles for what he gets.
    GRADE- D+ Best fit: NONE Demar isn't a legitimate starting 2 guard in the NBA. There are teams that have 2 guards not as talented as him starting (ie Keith Bogans) but those are acknowledged as temporary stop gaps until they can trade or sign one
    PROJECTION: Ronnie Brewer. Demar is a A- athlete but it serves no purpose as he can't get to the line or the rim enough to utilize that athletic ability. His shooting may improve but his skill set is raw. Demar's ceiling is probably a Gerald Wallace type of game at the 2 with rebounding defense and blocking shots his strengths.

    SF POSITION: This has been a platoon between Linas and Weems, both of which couldn't grasp the starting position for a losing team which speaks volumes about the hole the Raptors have. Neither player would be considered a starter on all NBA teams. Linas has played better of late, but his game is coming off the bench and providing scoring as he did in Denver. He'll put up better numbers than he did in Denver due to the minutes and more shots, but he's a role player and Toronto clearly overpaid for him.
    GRADE - D- (I didn't give an F only because Travis Outlaw and Marvin Williams are starters in the league) Best Fit: Bench
    PROJECTION: Cross your fingers Toronto ends up with Perry Jones next season.

    Amir Johnson/Reggie Evans: I can't hate on Reggie as he's one of the best rebounders in the league and Toronto acknowledges his starting was temporary but Amir was handed starter money in free agency and although his game is very useful it's obvious he isn't a starter due to the sheer number of fouls he takes. He can be a solid starter in the league only with a true point guard and a big man to rebound. He's arguably played the best out of all the Raptors this season although he's failed to stay on the court long enough consistently.
    GRADE - B - This position hasn't been the Raptor's weakness as they rebounded well and played good enough defense. Best Fit- Amir would be a great fit in Milwaukee as he and Bogut would be a fearsome combo on the defensive end.

    Andrea- Where can I start with this guy? He's the Jamal Crawford at the center position. A guy who provides offense on tough shots, doesn't play defense enough to be a starter and best suited to come off the bench as a sixth man. Very few 7 footers can score like he can but it doesn't matter when the opposition comes right down the lane for an easier score. To his defense, he's really a 4 playing the 5 so I can't place 100% of the blame on him, but when Rodney Stuckey, a 6-4 guard, out muscles you for a rebound as he did last game it makes me wonder if it will be any different if he played the 4. Toronto fans get on Calderon so much for not playing defense but compared to Andrea he's Rondo. Andrea is a SF playing the center position and that problem needs to be addressed. Offensively, he's a third option, second at best. His career high year is due to the abundance of shots he takes compared to last year as his PER barely breaks 17.
    GRADE - C- : When all the team numbers get better when he's on the bench that should sound the alarm to BC to possibly trade him. The opposing team's production is at 115 per 100 possessions when he's on the court!
    Best fit: Sixth Man for most NBA teams.
    Projection: He's nothing more than a gunner at this point and probably won't get any better. Raptor fans better learn to enjoy lottery years because he's signed for 5 more years
    nothing will change as long as people think derozan, amir, davis, bargs, and all the other young players on the raps are in the same class with the same high ceiliing as a:

    rudy gay
    mayo
    m gasol
    e gordon
    blake griffin
    steph curry
    john wall
    derrick rose
    noah
    horford
    tyreke evans
    kevin love
    durant
    westbrook
    brook lopez
    rondo
    kevin love
    and many others

    under bc's watch, not one player has developped into anything consistent...

    the players listed above are just as young as the raps young players, but clearly they are all way better.

    but hey we can all remember bc's EOY and the three playoff games we have won since 2006

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    Sorry man, you are NOT an optimist by any definition of the word.

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    Man the raptos are only a couple of games away from being into the playoffs, and they can score the ball that is half the battle, i agree our defense is brutal but I blame that on the coach. All the players that you have mentioned have showed consistent improvement from calderon, to derozan, to bargnani, we are a young team no doubt but we ARE getting better. I doubt that many GMs in the NBA would agree with the analysis of our players that you have given, I think bargnani is highly sought after, he is 2nd in the NBA in center scoring behind only dwight howard ...

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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Man the raptos are only a couple of games away from being into the playoffs, and they can score the ball that is half the battle, i agree our defense is brutal but I blame that on the coach. All the players that you have mentioned have showed consistent improvement from calderon, to derozan, to bargnani, we are a young team no doubt but we ARE getting better. I doubt that many GMs in the NBA would agree with the analysis of our players that you have given, I think bargnani is highly sought after, he is 2nd in the NBA in center scoring behind only dwight howard ...
    lol consistent improvement ? right

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    Quote jrdyck wrote: View Post
    Sorry man, you are NOT an optimist by any definition of the word.
    LOL I am an optimist, I'm also a realist. Believe me, if I had any reason at all to be optimistic I would about this team. Even when I try to put a good spin on the fact that the Raptors are going to get a lottery pick, I look at the standings and realize there are 10 other teams just as bad. If I were a Clipper or Wolves fan I would be optimistic on the fact that we would have young stars in the making (Kevin Love, Blake Griffin) and good young players, but the Raptors have none, and probably won't get a top 5 pick in a weak draft and no free agent will sign here so sometimes we as fans need to face reality. Optimism sells tickets I understand but the media needs to stop hyping these role players to be something they are not, legitimate starters in the NBA.

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    Quote jrdyck wrote: View Post
    Sorry man, you are NOT an optimist by any definition of the word.
    +1

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    Demar is starting to hit those open jumpers so I see progress. When weems plays within the offense he is very good. Amir has some amare in him the way he comes off of pick and rolls I don't know if he can put on any more size it would probably help him as a defender. I complete agree barg is a off the bench scorer and Calderon and barg shouldn't be on the floor at the same time it just makes a problem worst when it comes to defense

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    LOL I am an optimist, I'm also a realist. Believe me, if I had any reason at all to be optimistic I would about this team. Even when I try to put a good spin on the fact that the Raptors are going to get a lottery pick, I look at the standings and realize there are 10 other teams just as bad. If I were a Clipper or Wolves fan I would be optimistic on the fact that we would have young stars in the making (Kevin Love, Blake Griffin) and good young players, but the Raptors have none, and probably won't get a top 5 pick in a weak draft and no free agent will sign here so sometimes we as fans need to face reality. Optimism sells tickets I understand but the media needs to stop hyping these role players to be something they are not, legitimate starters in the NBA.
    stop saying you're an optimist. it makes you a hypocrite.

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    Pretty sure if you were an optimist (as I am) you would probably say something like... "Derozan still has lots of time to improve and is still young... never know, he could become an All-Star."

    Saying his ceiling or projection is Ronnie Brewer is definitely pessimistic

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    Definitely not an optimist. Realist -- maybe. I'm always fascinated by how so many people can read into the future. All we can do is compare our new crop of players to our past and guess.

    Are any of our wings as bad as Joey Graham? Remember he was seen to have future potential.

    I'd argue all of are wings are better at a younger age.

    Are any of our bigs better than say Hoffa or any other big we've drafted in the past?

    ...Ya, you all know the answer.

    Not saying are future is stacked, far from it, but I see players who all have the potential to grow. That means they all are assets that can be traded or kept. At this point that's all we can hope for.

    As for Calderon, I'd argue he has more value than you proclaim. He's a solid point guard who could start for about a third of the teams in the NBA (maybe more). If you look at teams that have strong backup veteran point guards (very few do) his contract is not that bad. Also, the weaknesses in defense are exaggerated by his haters and I would argue his low turnover rate negates his suspect D a bit.

    As far as Bargs -- I'm in the camp that believes we should trade him, however, when you assess his value it is important to also look at his play as a potential power forward. That's what most analyst do and I suspect most GMs as well. As a stretch PF he could start on a lot of teams -- some pretty good teams would be on that list I would guess.

    I'm not saying the future is rosy, far from it, but we got more trade-able assets than a couple young PFs IMO.

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    I'm an optimist too. That's why I think that spending Christmas with the family will suck balls and the head cold I have is really a brain tumor.

    But I'm a realist too. I know that blowing up a team yet again is a sure fire way to success.

    Really dude?
    Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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    Default AB on the bench !?!?!?

    Andrea Bargnani will be a starter in the following top team

    East

    Boston Celtics (near KG)
    Orlando (near DW)
    Miami (near B!%h)

    West

    LA Lakers (near Gasol)
    Spurs (near Duncan)


    He will help this team to get to final conference for sure. The kid is a hell of mismatch for other teams. Plus his contract is not respecting his real value.

    If I remember before the season several 'Raptors fans' (B!%h fans) where explaining AB numbers were due by B!%h presence in the paint freeing his opportunity. Their opinion on AB new season were like: "Unable to survive as a Center against double teams".

    I LOVE BC and I AM SO GLAD ALL OF YOU ARE NOT TAKING ANY DECISION ON AB

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    So he's not an optimist because he sees through the bullshit that Colangelo is selling everyone else on? I'd say the rest of you are delusional.

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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    So he's not an optimist because he sees through the bullshit that Colangelo is selling everyone else on? I'd say the rest of you are delusional.
    what the hell do you want colangelo to do? he had the best player on this team bolt on him. Bargnani was a 2nd option, Demar was a 3rd. Now its the first year of rebuilding, when we do get a superstar wouldnt you want him to be surrounded by good role players?

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    can someone please make an ignore button this is crazy
    you hate this team but love reggie / amir
    O dear i luv blue collar energy guys
    what a load of fucking bullshit
    btw we traded the jackass you love from the bucks do i need to say more about this bullshit piece

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Garbajosa's Avatar
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    deleting my account after reading this thread. MERRY CHRISTMAS you idiots.

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    derozan weems amir are the young shit squad, calderon and andrea are nice pieces andrea makes 3rd option kind of money go cry if ya disagree

    btw feel free to make soft euro quotes in this topic it's all its lacking from being a complete shitstorm
    Last edited by MaGIX; Sat Dec 25th, 2010 at 07:27 PM.

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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    under bc's watch, not one player has developped into anything consistent...
    Andrea Bargnani
    Demar Derozan
    Ed Davis

    Arguably Amir Johnson and Sonny Weems



    who else has he aquired that you expect to develop, and which of those guys do you see as have reached as good as they will become

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    Quote MaGIX wrote: View Post
    can someone please make an ignore button this is crazy
    you hate this team but love reggie / amir
    O dear i luv blue collar energy guys
    what a load of fucking bullshit
    btw we traded the jackass you love from the bucks do i need to say more about this bullshit piece
    You are misunderstanding what I wrote. I said Amir can START on a legitimate NBA playoff team. It's not whether I like these guys or not, I'm basing their game compared to the rest of the NBA. If Serge Ibaka can start for the Oklahoma Thunder (which he did when Jeff Green got hurt) and still win I don't see why Amir can't play for a contender. Don't buy into what Colangelo and the media is force feeding you and try to be objective about this team. When I watch the games and hear Rautins and the rest talk about how this group has potential and ect I can't believe what I'm hearing. I watch teams other than the Raptors and most of these guys couldn't cut it on other teams let alone play 30 mpg. I challenge anyone to tell me Demar is a legit 2 guard or Andrea is a legit center in the NBA. You earn your starting spot in the NBA, you aren't given it because you're a first rounder but in Toronto it's the opposite. Andrea is starting because he's the number 1 pick, Demar starts because he's the number 9 pick. Look at Indiana, they don't even play Paul George, the number 10 pick despite having a hole at the 2, James Harden comes off the bench as the number 3 pick. If you truly believe you'd rather have Demar and Andrea over Thabo and Roy Hibbert you're kidding yourself or haven't watched any games that didn't involve the Raptors

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