The myopia of Toronto Raptor fans- Starting 5 grades compared to the NBA/ Projection

[Gman]

k how bout the 9 straight seasons of 20+ppg ? is that enough no ?

how bout a career field goal percentage of 49.8% taking 16 shots a game and that's over 16 seasons ?

still not enough ? how bout the 4.2 assists he has averaged over his career ?

how bout averaging over 5 free throw attempts per game for 8 years ?

oh wait, i forgot he doesnt shoot three's... yea bargs is way better offensively.

Okay A**hat lets get serious. If you read my initial post you would realize that I was talking about the here and now. But even that to a certain extent can be argued considering that I think Garnett went from Warrior to douchebag in a single championship. So I could be being a little biased here. For me Garnett is incredibly fundamentally sound as a big man. He doesn't do anything astonishing. He hits his shots. He doesn't really dribble. Good passer and yes absolutely he sets great screens. No question.

This is a difference of aesthetics I prefer watching Nowitzki over Duncan. And that's what we're talking about offensively. Bargs can also create his own points where Garnett can't, wont doesn't. Do I think Bargs career will be as significant as KG's, absolutely not. That would be ridiculous...

If I had a choice, in the here and now, both of them on the same team with the same surrounding players, down two points last possession, I would rather put the ball in Bargnani's hands then KG's right now. And that's what I was talking about.

But thanks for reading me stats that EVERYBODY knows. I'm sure it made you feel good. Seriously, next time tell me your grass is green and your skies are blue...

[Legalize-It]

Did you write this in crayon before you typed it? KG has a great mid range jumper. Solid post moves and soft hands for a big man. He's made his money with his defence because his intensity is off the charts.

Anyway once you've pulled your head out of your latest bong hit there Legalize It...why don't you try to cite something that proves me wrong.

Okay A**hat lets get serious. If you read my initial post you would realize that I was talking about the here and now. But even that to a certain extent can be argued considering that I think Garnett went from Warrior to douchebag in a single championship. So I could be being a little biased here. For me Garnett is incredibly fundamentally sound as a big man. He doesn't do anything astonishing. He hits his shots. He doesn't really dribble. Good passer and yes absolutely he sets great screens. No question.

This is a difference of aesthetics I prefer watching Nowitzki over Duncan. And that's what we're talking about offensively. Bargs can also create his own points where Garnett can't, wont doesn't. Do I think Bargs career will be as significant as KG's, absolutely not. That would be ridiculous...

If I had a choice, in the here and now, both of them on the same team with the same surrounding players, down two points last possession, I would rather put the ball in Bargnani's hands then KG's right now. And that's what I was talking about.

But thanks for reading me stats that EVERYBODY knows. I'm sure it made you feel good. Seriously, next time tell me your grass is green and your skies are blue...

lol ok man... im sorry

you asked me to cite something, and in sports i naturally assumed you wanted stats, cuz you cant really cite anything else...so that's what i did.

sorry my fault...

for the record i dont use crayons or smoke weed but if you needed to mention that to make your point stronger im all for it...

[Gman]

First off, I was referring to the KG of old, not the old KG that we are seeing today. He could average 30 a game if he wanted to back in the day. Let me ask you something, Jamal Crawford is going to be a gifted scorer and averaged 20 ppg coming off the bench. Do you really believe he would be a great fit for any team as a starter. I'm sure he can average 25 ppg given the minutes but would you hand the offense to Jamal? If your answer is no (which 99% of gms and coaches would say) I would point you to examine Andrea's game compared to his. Ok, what about Antoine Walker, Ben Gordon and the list goes on. The NBA has been littered with scorers and eventually the bench is where they always end up. No one was more optimistic about Andrea's career than me when he exploded after Triano took over. I thought he could be a perennial all star soon. But after watching him play for 2 seasons his defense hasn't improved at all and unfortunately if you can't defend your position, your role is to come off the bench and score (exception is Phoenix). I'm not asking Andrea to be KG on defense, just AVERAGE defense and grab 8 rebounds a game and I would deem him a starter. But playing horrible help defense, pick and roll defense, boxing out, and averaging 0.7 blocks per game as a 7 footer is downright embarrassing. I give him credit for being a talented offensive player but he's too one dimensional

Well I was referring to the KG of now because that's the only one that matters comparatively. What I'm saying about Bargs is he's one of the best big men in the league at half of this game. He's special when it comes to half of this game. He does things that virtually no other big man can do (maybe Dirk)...and yeah I completely pull my hair out too that on the other end of the ball he turns in to a babbling syphilitic bozo, who needs to get slapped every single time he misses an assignment. But why spend hours talking about it. We all see it. Everybody sees it every single game. Why dwell on it...people have been talking about his defence on this site for years. And you're not saying anything that people weren't saying two years ago.

And because I'm the one Legalize-It called delusional be careful how you frame that reference because I never said we would have a chance against Miami or Boston. Either one of those is a 4-0 series with record breaking deficits. The problem with the tanking philosophy as has been discussed on this website a million or so times is the draft is an inexact science right?
Plus Toronto is already viewed by the league to have a culture of losing. We all play armchair GM but lets be straight about this...me, you or Legalize It aren't versed enough in this to be able to park Colangelo's car. We can't wash his windows or cut the tip of his hand rolled cuban cigars. Anybody on here who thinks they can? That guy is seriously DELUSIONAL. A week in his chair we would be crying out for our Mommies and eating hamburgers drunk on the floor like David Hasselhof.

[Gman]

lol ok man... im sorry

you asked me to cite something, and in sports i naturally assumed you wanted stats, cuz you cant really cite anything else...so that's what i did.

sorry my fault...

for the record i dont use crayons or smoke weed but if you needed to mention that to make your point stronger im all for it...

What you can do is take stats, analyse them. Talk about them...but as I said, I wasn't talking about Garnett of old and if you'd read my posts instead of just reacting you would have known that.

And seriously? I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings with the repartee. Your handle is Legalize It and you don't smoke weed? What the hell do you want to legalize then? Or are you just posing? Sad really

[RaptorDan]

Your handle is Legalize It and you don't smoke weed? What the hell do you want to legalize then? Or are you just posing? Sad really

While I can't speak for him, I'll take a crack at what Legalize-it would like to legalize, if its not weed: inter-species marriage, polygamy, heroin, mexican donkey sex porn, prostitution, dwarf tossing, salt eating contests, brother-sister-family pet threeways, shariah law, hand guns for minors, drunk driving, or post-gestation abortions.

Would anyone like to one-up me? It could be a fun contest.

[Thom]

i think you need to look up the definition of the word consistent...

being consistent means putting in the effort every nite... can you really say we have even ONE raptor that you can count on to play hard every nite ? (other than reggie)

and when bargs is taking 17 shots a game, i dont think his stats reflect those of a third option player...

no one is arguing the improvement and flashes some players have given us, but that has nothing to do with being consistent...

I know what consistent means and they have been consistently improving... plain and simple. You can't argue that they haven't been consistently improving over their careers. I'm not talking about every game, every night. All improving players have off games, just as all players who have reached their potential have off nights.

Basically, you were being a smart ass and I called you out. It's sad you're even trying to defend your comments. I'm not saying you never have good input, but I expected at least something other then laughing at another poster. Have a debate. Give some reasoning.

[RaptorDan]

While I can't speak for him, I'll take a crack at what Legalize-it would like to legalize, if its not weed: inter-species marriage, polygamy, heroin, mexican donkey sex porn, prostitution, dwarf tossing, salt eating contests, brother-sister-family pet threeways, shariah law, hand guns for minors, drunk driving, or post-gestation abortions.

Would anyone like to one-up me? It could be a fun contest.

anyone? anyone?

monkey scrotum breakfast cereal, putting peanut butter on your balls and having your neighbour's dog lick it off, building elementary schools on toxic waste dumps, shoving GI Joe action figures up your ass while on the subway, smoking crack on airplanes, glory holes in church confessionals

anyone? anyone?

[Legalize-It]

What you can do is take stats, analyse them. Talk about them...but as I said, I wasn't talking about Garnett of old and if you'd read my posts instead of just reacting you would have known that.

And seriously? I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings with the repartee. Your handle is Legalize It and you don't smoke weed? What the hell do you want to legalize then? Or are you just posing? Sad really

this has nothing to do with the raps so i'll make this quick...

you dont have to smoke weed to benefit from it being legalized.

if it was legalized, we could eliminate a major source of income for drug dealers and gangs, which would reduce their ability to engage in other criminal acts.

you would have less innocent civilians being killed because of drug wars.

less of our brothers and sisters would be put in jail just for getting high..

terminally ill people with very painful symptoms would have an option if they wanted to smoke a spliff instead of buying prescription medication which usually have severe side effects...

and finally, just like liquor and tobacco which is a huge source of income for the government, we could tax it, and use that money to build more community centres, schools, basketball courts, parks, and other places where people of all ages could go to further their skills and talents and have fun...

if you think that by criminalizing it, you are preventing people from smoking, then look around cuz it's really easy to get anyway...

just a thought, i could be wrong...

[Legalize-It]

What you fail to realize is that KG is only averaging 15.6 points a game so if he's off offensively he's probably scoring 8 points a game not 15. And Andrea is offensively way more talented than KG. No question. I said it here and I'll say it again. Defensively KG is a monster of epic proportions who has a solid offensive game.

There is nothing that you wrote that was optimistic. Offensively Bargnani is an incredibly special player who for his position can do things that very few other big men can do. So unless you at the very least give credit where credit is due you can't even be considered a realist.

I'd take some of the other points down but it would just be same BS different day. It's a reflection on your maturity that you expect the level of success that you do.

Did you write this in crayon before you typed it? KG has a great mid range jumper. Solid post moves and soft hands for a big man. He's made his money with his defence because his intensity is off the charts.

Anyway once you've pulled your head out of your latest bong hit there Legalize It...why don't you try to cite something that proves me wrong.

Okay A**hat lets get serious. If you read my initial post you would realize that I was talking about the here and now. But even that to a certain extent can be argued considering that I think Garnett went from Warrior to douchebag in a single championship. So I could be being a little biased here. For me Garnett is incredibly fundamentally sound as a big man. He doesn't do anything astonishing. He hits his shots. He doesn't really dribble. Good passer and yes absolutely he sets great screens. No question.

This is a difference of aesthetics I prefer watching Nowitzki over Duncan. And that's what we're talking about offensively. Bargs can also create his own points where Garnett can't, wont doesn't. Do I think Bargs career will be as significant as KG's, absolutely not. That would be ridiculous...

If I had a choice, in the here and now, both of them on the same team with the same surrounding players, down two points last possession, I would rather put the ball in Bargnani's hands then KG's right now. And that's what I was talking about.

But thanks for reading me stats that EVERYBODY knows. I'm sure it made you feel good. Seriously, next time tell me your grass is green and your skies are blue...

so this is getting very boring, but just a quick question:

you said bargs was better than kg offensively, and asked me to cite something to prove you wrong...

i cited stats, and you called me an a**hat (w/e that is), because what you meant was bargs is better than kg aesthetically...

so you like the way bargs' offense looks compared to kg, which i think we will both agree that aesthetics are opinion ? right ?

a fundamental player mite think tim duncan's offense is aesthetically better looking...

so what could i have possibly cited in this situation ?

to me, this is like askng someone what their favorite color is... and they say red... and then you say NO, BLUE, BLUE is better !! prove me wrong !! cite something to prove me wrong...

[heinz57]

And seriously? I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings with the repartee. Your handle is Legalize It and you don't smoke weed? What the hell do you want to legalize then? Or are you just posing? Sad really

it's about time i came clean with y'all... i've been a poser this whole time... i pains me to admit it, but i can no longer keep living this lie..

i hate ketchup.

love me some ganj though

[Legalize-It]

I know what consistent means and they have been consistently improving... plain and simple. You can't argue that they haven't been consistently improving over their careers. I'm not talking about every game, every night. All improving players have off games, just as all players who have reached their potential have off nights.

Basically, you were being a smart ass and I called you out. It's sad you're even trying to defend your comments. I'm not saying you never have good input, but I expected at least something other then laughing at another poster. Have a debate. Give some reasoning.

without all the insults, i think you can argue that some of the raps have not been improving...

it doesnt mean that you have to call me sad, or a smart ass, when i disagree with you...

and you say that i didnt give any reasons, well look at your post... do you see anything here, that is not opinion ?
all of your argument are opinion, yet you accuse me of not providing any reasoning...

my simple point was at this point in a lot of the young players careers, we dont know what to expect... i like DD, and am all for drafting him, but i wont let that cloud my judgement, when i see his jumper not falling... or his handles, not getting better... his defense hasnt improved much either...

bargs, rebounding is still below avergage... his post defense is still below what we need it to be ?

so what improvement are you so happy about ??

this is just a simple disagreement between us, there is no need to call people sad or any other names...

where are your reasons for thinking players have improved ? instead of calling me names, why dont you write them, and then mayble i will change my mind and agree with you

[Thom]

without all the insults, i think you can argue that some of the raps have not been improving...

it doesnt mean that you have to call me sad, or a smart ass, when i disagree with you...

and you say that i didnt give any reasons, well look at your post... do you see anything here, that is not opinion ?
all of your argument are opinion, yet you accuse me of not providing any reasoning...

my simple point was at this point in a lot of the young players careers, we dont know what to expect... i like DD, and am all for drafting him, but i wont let that cloud my judgement, when i see his jumper not falling... or his handles, not getting better... his defense hasnt improved much either...

bargs, rebounding is still below avergage... his post defense is still below what we need it to be ?

so what improvement are you so happy about ??

this is just a simple disagreement between us, there is no need to call people sad or any other names...

where are your reasons for thinking players have improved ? instead of calling me names, why dont you write them, and then mayble i will change my mind and agree with you

You were clearly being a smartass and I did actually give examples of players who have improved. Go look at the statistics. And it is sad what you are saying. I'm sure if the players read your comments they would feel sad too that a supposed fan is blatently ignoring some hardwork they've put in. Again, if you want examples go to my first post and read what I've said and then check the stats. I'm not gonna baby sit you and take the time to post a bunch of stat lines. It's common sense that the players I've listed have improved their games in the areas I stated. Are there parts of their game that havn't improved much? Yes. Are there players that haven't improved? Yes. Did I say all players improved? No.

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing now because you're still denying the fact that some players have improved their games which is just ludicris.

Oh, and I didn't call you a single name. I said you were being a smartass, which you were. Read that post of you laughing at someone who "disagreed" with you. Geez, I even went out of my way to say "I'm not saying you never have good input, but I expected at least something other then laughing at another poster." And your saying I'm calling people names and being disruptive?

[Legalize-It]

You were clearly being a smartass and I did actually give examples of players who have improved. Go look at the statistics. And it is sad what you are saying. I'm sure if the players read your comments they would feel sad too that a supposed fan is blatently ignoring some hardwork they've put in. Again, if you want examples go to my first post and read what I've said and then check the stats. I'm not gonna baby sit you and take the time to post a bunch of stat lines. It's common sense that the players I've listed have improved their games in the areas I stated. Are there parts of their game that havn't improved much? Yes. Are there players that haven't improved? Yes. Did I say all players improved? No.

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing now because you're still denying the fact that some players have improved their games which is just ludicris.

Oh, and I didn't call you a single name. I said you were being a smartass, which you were. Read that post of you laughing at someone who "disagreed" with you. Geez, I even went out of my way to say "I'm not saying you never have good input, but I expected at least something other then laughing at another poster." And your saying I'm calling people names and being disruptive?

no i just dont think anyone has really improved significantly... yea maybe being able to put up better stats once in a while, but thats it...

why am i a smart ass for thinking that way ?

even after 7 years people criticize lebron from being too immature and attention seeking ? are they being a smart ass ?

even after 7 years people criticize bosh for not being able to carry a team ? is that the opinion of a smartass ?

yes DD has tons of potential and from the bottom of my heart i hope he is an all-star vvery soon, but honestly speaking, i am not impressed with his game...

which part of this is being a smart ass ??

look at the other players in demar, bayless, and amir's age group and look at how they have developed int their second season.

dont call people smartass just cuz they have a different opinion than you.

[Legalize-It]

You were clearly being a smartass and I did actually give examples of players who have improved. Go look at the statistics. And it is sad what you are saying. I'm sure if the players read your comments they would feel sad too that a supposed fan is blatently ignoring some hardwork they've put in. Again, if you want examples go to my first post and read what I've said and then check the stats. I'm not gonna baby sit you and take the time to post a bunch of stat lines. It's common sense that the players I've listed have improved their games in the areas I stated. Are there parts of their game that havn't improved much? Yes. Are there players that haven't improved? Yes. Did I say all players improved? No.

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing now because you're still denying the fact that some players have improved their games which is just ludicris.

Oh, and I didn't call you a single name. I said you were being a smartass, which you were. Read that post of you laughing at someone who "disagreed" with you. Geez, I even went out of my way to say "I'm not saying you never have good input, but I expected at least something other then laughing at another poster." And your saying I'm calling people names and being disruptive?

do you know how hard it is to even get into the D-League ?

[Thom]

no i just dont think anyone has really improved significantly... yea maybe being able to put up better stats once in a while, but thats it...

why am i a smart ass for thinking that way ?

even after 7 years people criticize lebron from being too immature and attention seeking ? are they being a smart ass ?

even after 7 years people criticize bosh for not being able to carry a team ? is that the opinion of a smartass ?

yes DD has tons of potential and from the bottom of my heart i hope he is an all-star vvery soon, but honestly speaking, i am not impressed with his game...

which part of this is being a smart ass ??

look at the other players in demar, bayless, and amir's age group and look at how they have developed int their second season.

dont call people smartass just cuz they have a different opinion than you.

I didn't say you were a smartass for thinking the way you thought and I didn't say you were a smartass for having a different opinion. You were a smartass because YOU LAUGHED AT ANOTHER POSTERS OPINION WITHOUT GIVING ANY REASONING. I can't believe you can't comprehend that. It doesn't make sense. I'm beginning to think you're just a troll. You sure don't sound like someone who is trying to have a good discussion on these forums.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with you being a smartass so I don't feel the need to respond. Also, check below where I posted you blatently being a smartass.

[Thom]

SuperRaptor wrote:
Man the raptos are only a couple of games away from being into the playoffs, and they can score the ball that is half the battle, i agree our defense is brutal but I blame that on the coach. All the players that you have mentioned have showed consistent improvement from calderon, to derozan, to bargnani, we are a young team no doubt but we ARE getting better. I doubt that many GMs in the NBA would agree with the analysis of our players that you have given, I think bargnani is highly sought after, he is 2nd in the NBA in center scoring behind only dwight howard ...

Legalize-It wrote: lol consistent improvement ? right

There it is right there. Someone gives their reasoning / opinion and you laugh at them and snidely remark "right". That's being a smartass. If not then what would you call that?

[Thom]

do you know how hard it is to even get into the D-League ?

This has nothing to do with anything we've discussed.

[Legalize-It]

SuperRaptor wrote:
Man the raptos are only a couple of games away from being into the playoffs, and they can score the ball that is half the battle, i agree our defense is brutal but I blame that on the coach. All the players that you have mentioned have showed consistent improvement from calderon, to derozan, to bargnani, we are a young team no doubt but we ARE getting better. I doubt that many GMs in the NBA would agree with the analysis of our players that you have given, I think bargnani is highly sought after, he is 2nd in the NBA in center scoring behind only dwight howard ...

Legalize-It wrote: lol consistent improvement ? right

There it is right there. Someone gives their reasoning / opinion and you laugh at them and snidely remark "right". That's being a smartass. If not then what would you call that?

yes i disagree with the belief that the rap young gunz have shown consistent improvement...

how is that being a smart ass ?

people on this board earlier this year and last year were saying what a steal sonny weems was and how we should give him mid level exception type money next year...

i dont agree with that, and that's why i questioned superraptor's belief that certain players have shown consistent improvement...

just 2-3 games ago bargs played 40 mins and had 2 rebounds and we lossed, and were outrebounded...

[Thom]

yes i disagree with the belief that the rap young gunz have shown consistent improvement...

how is that being a smart ass ?

people on this board earlier this year and last year were saying what a steal sonny weems was and how we should give him mid level exception type money next year...

i dont agree with that, and that's why i questioned superraptor's belief that certain players have shown consistent improvement...

just 2-3 games ago bargs played 40 mins and had 2 rebounds and we lossed, and were outrebounded...

Did I mention Sonny? Nope. In fact, I think he has declined his level of play. He seems to be playing for a contract. The only thing I've said is that some players have consistently improved their games over their career and I said what players and in what areas they have improved. The other thing I said was you are a smartass.

Again, what would you classify your reply to superraptor as? I quoted the post where you were being a smartass, yet you don't think laughing at someone and saying "right" is somehow not being a smartass. Can you address this please.

[Legalize-It]

Did I mention Sonny? Nope. In fact, I think he has declined his level of play. He seems to be playing for a contract. The only thing I've said is that some players have consistently improved their games over their career and I said what players and in what areas they have improved. The other thing I said was you are a smartass.

Again, what would you classify your reply to superraptor as? I quoted the post where you were being a smartass, yet you don't think laughing at someone and saying "right" is somehow not being a smartass. Can you address this please.

so someone said something delusional, and i said "lol right"...

if you think that is being a smart ass, then there's nothing i can do, and i really dont care.