The myopia of Toronto Raptor fans- Starting 5 grades compared to the NBA/ Projection

[JoePanini]

why do you say "we can only improve"...

because as optimistic as that is, it's not entirely accurate.

it IS possible to get worse if management makes bad decisions.

look at the clippers, knicks, warriors, t'wolves... for the last 10 years these teams's fans were thinking the team will get better, and they didnt.

so you can improve, or you can be stuck as a 8-15 team for a long time...

I think we have already improved, we are a better team than with Bosh IMO. And this team is very young, with nearly all players under 25. We don't have any bad contracts (Peja is a GREAT contract, and Amir is debatable) and we play fun basketball. We might not be winning many games, but we will get there. With Bosh, we would have always been a 38-42 win team, now we have a chance to go beyond that. Maybe not next year, maybe in 3. We don't know, but we can hope.

[Legalize-It]

I think we have already improved, we are a better team than with Bosh IMO. And this team is very young, with nearly all players under 25. We don't have any bad contracts (Peja is a GREAT contract, and Amir is debatable) and we play fun basketball. We might not be winning many games, but we will get there. With Bosh, we would have always been a 38-42 win team, now we have a chance to go beyond that. Maybe not next year, maybe in 3. We don't know, but we can hope.

yes i understand that, but you didnt answer the question...

teams dont always improve, sometimes they take a step backward...

not saying the raps are, but this assumption that teams can only improve is not entirely accurate.

see sacramento kings... great improvements made last year, but how are they playing this year...

again, this has nothing to do with the raps, but it is possible that when you have a bunch of young players, that the improvement just doesnt happen.

there's a lot of players who are one year wonders, so i hope after reading this joe, i hope that you consider the assumption that no matter what teams will get better when you throw in a bunch of young players together, is not true.

[JoePanini]

yes i understand that, but you didnt answer the question...

teams dont always improve, sometimes they take a step backward...

not saying the raps are, but this assumption that teams can only improve is not entirely accurate.

see sacramento kings... great improvements made last year, but how are they playing this year...

again, this has nothing to do with the raps, but it is possible that when you have a bunch of young players, that the improvement just doesnt happen.

there's a lot of players who are one year wonders, so i hope after reading this joe, i hope that you consider the assumption that no matter what teams will get better when you throw in a bunch of young players together, is not true.

Well the Raptors not improving would make us a 20 win team. I'm quite positive we will win more.

[smushmush]

Well I was referring to the KG of now because that's the only one that matters comparatively. What I'm saying about Bargs is he's one of the best big men in the league at half of this game. He's special when it comes to half of this game. He does things that virtually no other big man can do (maybe Dirk)...and yeah I completely pull my hair out too that on the other end of the ball he turns in to a babbling syphilitic bozo, who needs to get slapped every single time he misses an assignment. But why spend hours talking about it. We all see it. Everybody sees it every single game. Why dwell on it...people have been talking about his defence on this site for years. And you're not saying anything that people weren't saying two years ago.

And because I'm the one Legalize-It called delusional be careful how you frame that reference because I never said we would have a chance against Miami or Boston. Either one of those is a 4-0 series with record breaking deficits. The problem with the tanking philosophy as has been discussed on this website a million or so times is the draft is an inexact science right?
Plus Toronto is already viewed by the league to have a culture of losing. We all play armchair GM but lets be straight about this...me, you or Legalize It aren't versed enough in this to be able to park Colangelo's car. We can't wash his windows or cut the tip of his hand rolled cuban cigars. Anybody on here who thinks they can? That guy is seriously DELUSIONAL. A week in his chair we would be crying out for our Mommies and eating hamburgers drunk on the floor like David Hasselhof.

Sorry, I really had to reply. The draft might be an inexact science but Top 5 picks have generally had better careers than outside the Top 5. Why is the draft also an inexact science when players like Ibaka, Ginobili, Parker, Granger, Millsap, Scola are having decent careers in the NBA? Why is it that guys that are undrafted in Wes Matthews and Gary Neal are having good careers and did not play like rookies in their rookie year? Just because the Raps have made a lot of draft day gaffes because of a certain Jim Kelly should not make you come to a conclusion that the draft is an inexact science. Even if the draft is an inexact science, there is something called "law of averages" that evens out draft choices even if they are random.

You also said you prefer Nowitzki's play over Duncan. That shows me you are not an avid basketball fan. Experienced Basketball fans(I have been watching the NBA snce the 1997/1998 season) would choose Duncan over Nowitzki any day. Nowitzki can have a bad offensive game, can he make up for it by playing post and help defense, rebound, box out, set solid screens, pass out of double teams? Ask same question for Duncan and see why Duncan is way better than Nowitzki. Same comparison with Bargs and Garnett. Also, If I had to choose between having the ball in Duncan/Garnett's hands or Bargs hands in the clutch - I would choose the former. Duncan or Garnett may not be able to create their shots but they sure can get you to the free throw line and find you better options out of a double team.

Finally, I support Ibzilla - If I am BC, I would blow up the team, trade everyone even the supposed base of Andrea, DD and Ed Davis for draft picks(first rounders and second rounders) and prospects to start a proper rebuild. Furthermore, I will sack Jim Kelly(the draft evaluator) and offer that job to San Antonio Spurs or Oklahoma City draft scouts who know what they want in prospects or darft picks. Consequently, I will fire Triano and get a teaching coach a la Paul Silas that will teach the new picks how to play defense and cut on turnovers by tweaking how they play or make passes. I will sit back after this decision and watch the team, if I continually see an effort on defense with results(I will be ok with a 15-21 range in defensive FG%), no more tweaks will be made until the group is ready to compete. Face it, do you prefer the Edmonton Oilers, LA Clippers, even the Minnesota Timberwolves in their state of rebuild to the Toronto Raptors, Toronto Maple Leafs or Calgary Flames? I sure would choose the former thank you.

'Nuff said.

[Raptorsss]

Again why blow up this team? Draft picks are hit and miss and it depends on your scouts (see SA) rather than draft position (see LAC/Min). I am not against trading Bargs if we can get a 20/ppg player in return, who can play defense. I doubt that can happen.

The problem with this team is inexperience and BBALL IQ not effort and talent.

[Legalize-It]

Well the Raptors not improving would make us a 20 win team. I'm quite positive we will win more.

ok, lets look at the leafs... how many years has it been not since they won a cup, but how long has it been since they were considered a good team...

its been like 4-5 years that they have been horrible...

so the point im trying to make to you is that it is not accurate to think the raps will get better just because you have a young core...

they mite get better as in finishing 28th overall instead of 30th, but im not talking about such insignificant improvement...

im talking about going from bad to competing for a ring...

so i dont understand what you mean by saying atleast we're not gona win less than 20 games... is that something to be proud of ?

[JoePanini]

ok, lets look at the leafs... how many years has it been not since they won a cup, but how long has it been since they were considered a good team...

its been like 4-5 years that they have been horrible...

so the point im trying to make to you is that it is not accurate to think the raps will get better just because you have a young core...

they mite get better as in finishing 28th overall instead of 30th, but im not talking about such insignificant improvement...

im talking about going from bad to competing for a ring...

so i dont understand what you mean by saying atleast we're not gona win less than 20 games... is that something to be proud of ?

Ring?? That's pretty high.. First we make the playoffs, then we win a series then we can talk ring.
And I don't think comparing different sports is fair. Different sports are different sports.

[Legalize-It]

Ring?? That's pretty high.. First we make the playoffs, then we win a series then we can talk ring.
And I don't think comparing different sports is fair. Different sports are different sports.

competing for a ring... read it twice if you cant comprehend simple statements like that the first time...

[Legalize-It]

ok, lets look at the leafs... how many years has it been not since they won a cup, but how long has it been since they were considered a good team...

its been like 4-5 years that they have been horrible...

so the point im trying to make to you is that it is not accurate to think the raps will get better just because you have a young core...

they mite get better as in finishing 28th overall instead of 30th, but im not talking about such insignificant improvement...

im talking about going from bad to competing for a ring...
so i dont understand what you mean by saying atleast we're not gona win less than 20 games... is that something to be proud of ?

c o m p e t i n g f o r a r i n g ..

if i type like that, does it make it easier for you ?

[smushmush]

Numbers don't mean anything. Have you compared Bargs' minutes to his numbers from year to year? Have you noticed any shooting consistency or consistent defensive effort? Have you noticed DeRozan can't go to his left, has a weak handle and is a shooting guard that can neither guard nor shoot?

This isn't a clueless fan of basketball, he's a realist who watches other teams and is tired of hearing about how much ceiling and potential our players have.

+1. I don't know why we still have Rap fans that thinks this team is more than a group of scrubs. The BC koolaid has not worn off some fans. Once we become the Clippers(even the Clippers are improving now), maybe the BC koolaid will wear off. BC is a used car salesman, I don't see how people don't see past his charade. Furthermore, his sucess in Phoenix is based on a certain player Steve Nash that is a first ballot hall of famer.

[ibzilla]

I think we have already improved, we are a better team than with Bosh IMO. And this team is very young, with nearly all players under 25. We don't have any bad contracts (Peja is a GREAT contract, and Amir is debatable) and we play fun basketball. We might not be winning many games, but we will get there. With Bosh, we would have always been a 38-42 win team, now we have a chance to go beyond that. Maybe not next year, maybe in 3. We don't know, but we can hope.

All I'm saying is don't buy into what Colangelo is selling to fans. They tell us that they are "retooling' and the pieces are there and going to get better because they are younger. Bear with it, come support us and we will play hard for you. Listen, I want these guys to get better, I hope the young core can improve and get better. I lived in Boston when they were playing their young guys like Gerald Green and Delonte West and they were singing the same song to their fan base. Had they kept that young core together they probably would be sitting at the bottom of the standings too. Youth does not equal winning in future, it's the right core of young guys that matter. The LA Clippers were young when they played Darius Miles, Odom and Brand and it did not help. They are in a better place now with Griffin and Gordon than the last 10 years unless management screws it up.

[Legalize-It]

+1. I don't know why we still have Rap fans that thinks this team is more than a group of scrubs. The BC koolaid has not worn off some fans. Once we become the Clippers(even the Clippers are improving now), maybe the BC koolaid will wear off. BC is a used car salesman, I don't see how people don't see past his charade. Furthermore, his sucess in Phoenix is based on a certain player Steve Nash that is a first ballot hall of famer.

and bc TRADED nash away from phx to dallas when he took over...

years later, his dad was able to outbid marc cuban, and get nash to come back.

[Raptorsss]

Smush will blowing up this team land three All-stars? Are there 3 All-stars in the drafts of 2011-2012? The best chance the raptors have is making this group a playoff team, then trying to trade/sign for some all-stars. Do you think the Raptors players have reached their ceiling? I don't think so, I want them to reach their potential in a Raptors uniform.

Edit: Unless your signing (Miami), trading for (LA, Boston) All-stars you don't blow up this team.

[Legalize-It]

Smush will blowing up this team land three All-stars? Are there 3 All-stars in the drafts of 2011-2012? The best chance the raptors have is making this group a playoff team, then trying to trade/sign for some all-stars. Do you think the Raptors players have reached their ceiling? I don't think so, I want them to reach their potential in a Raptors uniform.

can you please explain to me how you trade scrubs for all-stars ?

is OKC really gona say yea we'll take derozan and amir and giv you KD

is GSW gona say yea we'll take bargs and davis for steph curry

is CHI gona take sonny weems and kleiza and give us rose ??

trading for all-stars only happens when the all-star is past his peak, and the team that had him decides they dont want him anymore.

[mcHAPPY]

and bc TRADED nash away from phx to dallas when he took over...

years later, his dad was able to outbid marc cuban, and get nash to come back.

We've been through this before.

http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...ll=1#post50764