It doesn't look good for the next 2 weeks, will Triano job be in jeopardy

[Hotshot]

With the rash of injuries and lackluster play in the past month which saw the Raptors only win 2 games out of 11, the next little while doesn't look promising either:

Dec 28 - Dallas (away)
Dec 31 - Houston (away)
Jan. 2 - Boston (home)
Jan. 4 - Chicago (away)
Jan. 5 - Cleveland (away)
Jan. 7 - Boston (away)

Now for those looking for a possible wins against some of the weaker opponants, Houston is 9-4 at home and the Raptors won't have Bargnani. The Cleveland game is the most ideal place to grab a W, however it is on a back to back and also an away game so it will be difficult.

They could very well be a situation where the Raptors lose all those games and the record will indicate only 2 wins in their last 17 games. Is that enough to heat the chair under Triano or will Colangelo look the other way?!

[Matt52]

With the rash of injuries and lackluster play in the past month which saw the Raptors only win 2 games out of 11, the next little while doesn't look promising either:

Dec 28 - Dallas (away)
Dec 31 - Houston (away)
Jan. 2 - Boston (home)
Jan. 4 - Chicago (away)
Jan. 5 - Cleveland (away)
Jan. 7 - Boston (away)

Now for those looking for a possible wins against some of the weaker opponants, Houston is 9-4 at home and the Raptors won't have Bargnani. The Cleveland game is the most ideal place to grab a W, however it is on a back to back and also an away game so it will be difficult.

They could very well be a situation where the Raptors lose all those games and the record will indicate only 2 wins in their last 17 games. Is that enough to heat the chair under Triano or will Colangelo look the other way?!

If the only 2 wins in 17 games plays out and he is not fired, it will be a clear indication to anyone following the team this is rebuild mode and management doesn't really care about the record this year and are playing for a draft pick. The danger is cultivating an acceptance of losing, however, I think it would guarantee Triano does not return next year.

What would piss me off more than going 2-15 is if the games continue as they have been the last 2. The game against DET and MEM were farces. No real determined effort, literally giving the game away via turnovers, and no organization or flow on offense. There have been a number of loses this year that were inexcusable due to lack of effort (WSH, ATL, IND, DET, MEM). These games are piling up. Also there have been a number of games where games were win-able but let them slip. On the flip side there have been a number of games they had no business being in let alone winning. The problem has been inconsistency.

Effort by the players should determine JT's fate. A coach can take a team from the bottom to the top (like Woodson in ATL) over a span of 4 seasons but the players need to show improvement each year and a consistent full effort and the coach needs to show his system/coaching is right for the team. Management also needs to ensure better players are coming in each year.

[JoePanini]

That's an ugly stretch. Let's hope to surprise these teams, who probably overlook us.

[smushmush]

If the only 2 wins in 17 games plays out and he is not fired, it will be a clear indication to anyone following the team this is rebuild mode and management doesn't really care about the record this year and are playing for a draft pick. The danger is cultivating an acceptance of losing, however, I think it would guarantee Triano does not return next year.

What would piss me off more than going 2-15 is if the games continue as they have been the last 2. The game against DET and MEM were farces. No real determined effort, literally giving the game away via turnovers, and no organization or flow on offense. There have been a number of loses this year that were inexcusable due to lack of effort (WSH, ATL, IND, DET, MEM). These games are piling up. Also there have been a number of games where games were win-able but let them slip. On the flip side there have been a number of games they had no business being in let alone winning. The problem has been inconsistency.

Effort by the players should determine JT's fate. A coach can take a team from the bottom to the top (like Woodson in ATL) over a span of 4 seasons but the players need to show improvement each year and a consistent full effort and the coach needs to show his system/coaching is right for the team. Management also needs to ensure better players are coming in each year.

If I'm BC, what determines Jay triano's fate is whether the team improves defensively(an increase of 6 spots in 2 months or increase of 2-3 spots over this stretch) and cuts on their turnovers. Once I see that the team does not improve in these areas, Jay Triano is gone. Rebuilding should be done the right way and not by cultivating a culture of losing in festering an atmosphere of no accountabilty, no defense, no effort and taking plays off on both sides of the floor.

[Matt52]

Rebuilding should be done the right way and not by cultivating a culture of losing in festering an atmosphere of no accountabilty, no defense, no effort and taking plays off on both sides of the floor.

+ a lot

[Legalize-It]

what is jay supposed to do ? he has a centre that gets outmuscled by nate robinson...

he has wing players who cant stay in front of their man

he has a pg who is great at one thing and that's the pick and roll... once team's shut that down, it's over...

he cant even run post plays, cuz bargs refuses to go near the paint, and no one else can post up...

what would firing jay do ?

and the next coach will have the same problem...

that problem being bargs must get 36 mins a nite and you cant push bargs to play harder or bench him or else you like smitch will be gone.

[JoePanini]

what is jay supposed to do ? he has a centre that gets outmuscled by nate robinson...

he has wing players who cant stay in front of their man

he has a pg who is great at one thing and that's the pick and roll... once team's shut that down, it's over...

he cant even run post plays, cuz bargs refuses to go near the paint, and no one else can post up...

what would firing jay do ?

and the next coach will have the same problem...

that problem being bargs must get 36 mins a nite and you cant push bargs to play harder or bench him or else you like smitch will be gone.

yes, I don't think you've been watching many Raptor games this year...

[Matt52]

what is jay supposed to do ? he has a centre that gets outmuscled by nate robinson...

he has wing players who cant stay in front of their man

he has a pg who is great at one thing and that's the pick and roll... once team's shut that down, it's over...

he cant even run post plays, cuz bargs refuses to go near the paint, and no one else can post up...

what would firing jay do ?

and the next coach will have the same problem...

that problem being bargs must get 36 mins a nite and you cant push bargs to play harder or bench him or else you like smitch will be gone.

There are some good points in there. This is why a re-build takes time. If OKC is the blueprint, the Raptors are at the start of season 3 of 5. HOpefully they get some top 5 draft picks the next 2 seasons.

[brakeman1]

I don't think Jay is to blame for this mess. Its not like he can hold someone accountable and bench them when the player behind them in the rotation is no better. Jay Triano all of a sudden didn't forget how to coach. Ask USA basketball.

[Legalize-It]

There are some good points in there. This is why a re-build takes time. If OKC is the blueprint, the Raptors are at the start of season 3 of 5. HOpefully they get some top 5 draft picks the next 2 seasons.

that's the thing tho, it's unlikely we get any top 5 picks, when BC goes out and signs people like kleiza, or tries to get boris diaw and matt barnes...

his ability to patch up holes prevents the team from getting top 5 picks...

i like amir, but why sign him when you just drafted ed davis...

why isnt ed davis getting 30 mins a game ? why not run more plays for demar ?

we are guaranteed mediocrity when you patch up holes instead of actually rebuilding the foundation.

[WJF]

I guess this win vs. Dallas helps JT out big time....not that I thought he was in any trouble to begin with.

[Matt52]

that's the thing tho, it's unlikely we get any top 5 picks, when BC goes out and signs people like kleiza, or tries to get boris diaw and matt barnes...

his ability to patch up holes prevents the team from getting top 5 picks...

i like amir, but why sign him when you just drafted ed davis...

why isnt ed davis getting 30 mins a game ? why not run more plays for demar ?

we are guaranteed mediocrity when you patch up holes instead of actually rebuilding the foundation.

When the Bobcats trade was occurring, IMO BC was still operating under make the playoffs etc. etc. When that trade did not go down, I think it took a couple of weeks, but BC finally conceded re-tool, re-build, whatever you, me, or he wants to call it.

Despite the impressive showing last night vs DAL, I think this team is more than capable of a top 5 pick. If they can't get one, how bad does a team have to be to get one? Also, there is no guarantee getting a top 5 pick improves the team - look at PHI, WSH, NJ, SAC. Personally, I'd rather be in the Raptors situation versus all of them - except possibly NJ because of the picks, cap space, and couple of pieces they do have (although that Travis Outlaw contract is ridiculous - makes Amir look almost really good).

I agree with the Ed Davis comment but patience is needed. He came off a long lay off with a broken wrist, played summer league, busted his knee, missed training camp and the first 15/16 games of the season. Overplaying at this stage might not be good for his health or development/confidence. Last night he did play 31 - hopefully it is a start of 25-30 mins a night.

I think where we disagree is on the signings and total tear down of the team. I don't mind the signings because, while the guys aren't starters, they are good role players to have on a team. This team has the depth but not the stars to go in front of them. This is why I think, again only my opinion, the re-build/re-tool won't go on for years. To totally rip the team apart would not guarantee future superstars and would take much longer to become relevant.

[Matt52]

Triano has to be given credit for his coaching last night. He had the team ready to perform from the beginning and overcame adversity throughout the game to keep the team in a position to win - and they did. Certainly a character win. It would be nice to see this type of effort against the MEM's and DET's of the league.

[MangoKid]

Triano's job is to just teach. This season is a learning one. If we can get some wins out of it, that would be fantastic, but the idea of this season is for the young guys to get some playing time and to grow and develop as they learn the ins and outs.
Even if the Raps lost every game for the next two weeks, Triano wouldn't lose his job.

[sillydebate]

Fully agree with MangoKid's comments. Jay is doing a good job teaching these guys. You cannot lose your job to a tough schedule and a lengthy injured list. He's making the best of the situation and the players gave him something that he can refer to on a regular basis for the rest of the season. When the effort is there, these guys can do special things out there. They've had some big surprise wins already and there are a lot of young guys getting put into situations they've never been in before. I have a feeling that this year is going to look a lot like 2008-09 where there is a surge of optimism as the season progresses and performances like last nights become more consistent and successful. Keep things steady for the time being. There's not reason to panic.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

Can people please stop making these thread? Triano has been doing his job all season, the Raptors really believe in what he's saying and give it their 100% most games. There is no way Triano is getting fired especially when everyone knows this is a rebuilding year with a bunch of inexperienced young players.

BTW Raptors are playing beyond expectation and have a 10-20 so far, most people thought this team was going to win 15-20 wins all season.

[Legalize-It]

When the Bobcats trade was occurring, IMO BC was still operating under make the playoffs etc. etc. When that trade did not go down, I think it took a couple of weeks, but BC finally conceded re-tool, re-build, whatever you, me, or he wants to call it.

Despite the impressive showing last night vs DAL, I think this team is more than capable of a top 5 pick. If they can't get one, how bad does a team have to be to get one? Also, there is no guarantee getting a top 5 pick improves the team - look at PHI, WSH, NJ, SAC. Personally, I'd rather be in the Raptors situation versus all of them - except possibly NJ because of the picks, cap space, and couple of pieces they do have (although that Travis Outlaw contract is ridiculous - makes Amir look almost really good).

I agree with the Ed Davis comment but patience is needed. He came off a long lay off with a broken wrist, played summer league, busted his knee, missed training camp and the first 15/16 games of the season. Overplaying at this stage might not be good for his health or development/confidence. Last night he did play 31 - hopefully it is a start of 25-30 mins a night.

I think where we disagree is on the signings and total tear down of the team. I don't mind the signings because, while the guys aren't starters, they are good role players to have on a team. This team has the depth but not the stars to go in front of them. This is why I think, again only my opinion, the re-build/re-tool won't go on for years. To totally rip the team apart would not guarantee future superstars and would take much longer to become relevant.

amir was signed way before ed davis was injured

top 5 or top 10 draft picks are already hard to get, why make getting them harder by signing kleiza

look at the teams with franchise players, and tell me how many of them were drafted beyond the top 10

or look at teams that have consistently made the playoffs, and tell me how many of their players were drafted outside of the top 10

you mite have a really bad record for a year or two, but in that year or two, your core players develop, and you get better odds of finding a gem in the draft

if its hard to sign free agents in toronto, then giving yourself the best chance of landing a good player through the draft makes the most sense ?

finishing 9th or 10th in the conference beats all our expectations and makes for some exciting basketball, but it is almost the surest way to never being a contender...

[Matt52]

amir was signed way before ed davis was injured

top 5 or top 10 draft picks are already hard to get, why make getting them harder by signing kleiza

look at the teams with franchise players, and tell me how many of them were drafted beyond the top 10

or look at teams that have consistently made the playoffs, and tell me how many of their players were drafted outside of the top 10

you mite have a really bad record for a year or two, but in that year or two, your core players develop, and you get better odds of finding a gem in the draft

if its hard to sign free agents in toronto, then giving yourself the best chance of landing a good player through the draft makes the most sense ?

finishing 9th or 10th in the conference beats all our expectations and makes for some exciting basketball, but it is almost the surest way to never being a contender...

I'm not sure where Amir signing before Davis' injury came in to it.

Franchise players drafted 10 or higher:

Kobe (13), Pierece (10), Joe Johnson (traded twice, but drafted 10), Granger (17), Gerald Wallace (25)/Stephen Jackson (43), Duncan carried Spurs for years but now Manu (57) and Parker (28), Nash (15), Randolph (19 - although Gay (8) would probably be considered Franchise player in MEM), Ellis (40)/David Lee (30), Jennings (10 - arguably with Bogut (1)), *before trade* Arenas (31)/Blatche (49) future is Wall, of course (1) but they are bad now, Martin (26)/Scola (56), Lopez (10).

Franchise players drafted 5-9:

Wade (5), Josh Smith (17 - arguably with JJ), Stoudemire (9), Harris (5)/Lopez (10), Iguodala (9), Nowitzki (9), Gay (8), Curry (7), Roy (6), Allen (5), Garnett (5), Love (5)

Franchise players drafted 1-4:
LBJ (1), Rose (should be noted Bulls totally lucked out were suppose to draft 9 that year), Howard (2), Bogut (1), Bargnani (1), Wall (1), Duncan (1), Williams (3), Durant (2), Carmelo (3), Paul (4), Aldridge (4), Yao (1), Griffin (1)/Davis (3 - not anymore), Evans (4), Beasley (2).

Nobody from Detroit or Cleveland for obvious reasons.

What I notice is there are very few bonafide franchise players out there (those that are are bolded) rather mainly there are a lot of all-stars and borderline all-stars as the best player on a team. Most of those players are in the 1-4 range but that is because it is rare for a player to develop in to a franchise player without being identified as a super talent early (Nash). It is also noticeable the top 4 is a total luck of the draw as well and nothing is guaranteed between injuries, players inner circle/work ethic/desire, and team environment.

Another thing I noticed is there are a lot of very good players picked 5-10. I think the Raptors are doing the right thing - put as many pieces needed for a good team and hope BC can get back to his draft success in Phoenix and success picking up low first round draft picks/unknown talents via trade. Even the worst teams in the league are not guaranteed the #1 pick - actually the worst team rarely gets it, it would seem to me from recent memory.

"you mite have a really bad record for a year or two, but in that year or two, your core players develop, and you get better odds of finding a gem in the draft"

This is an idealized situation but after watching MIN, SAC, LAC, GSW, and other annual bottom feeders continue to draft high year after year with little success, I don't like the gamble of placing all the chips on a high draft pick nor the risk of creating a losing culture. At least the Raptors of recent years have been competitive and at least challenging for a playoff spot.

The way the Raptors are currently assembled there is a much greater chance of creating a solid Detroit Pistons-style team of the mid-2000's versus get a superstar and build around him. Personally I would rather have the Pistons style team as one great player cannot do it by themselves as LBJ showed in CLE. Even MJ showed by having a solid team around him for all of the Bulls championship teams one player can't do it by himself. HOWEVER, my absolute preference would to be put a superstar on a solid team but I'm trying to be realistic.

This is all my opinion - I respect yours as you do raise a couple of valid points. In no way am I attempting to disrespect.

[Buddahfan]

If the Raptors beat Houston tomorrow who will start on Sunday against Boston assuming all of the players who started vs Dallas are healthy enough to start on Sunday?

[Forge]

Triano's job is to just teach. This season is a learning one. If we can get some wins out of it, that would be fantastic, but the idea of this season is for the young guys to get some playing time and to grow and develop as they learn the ins and outs.
Even if the Raps lost every game for the next two weeks, Triano wouldn't lose his job.

I concur fully with MangoKid. When the Chandler trade fell thru, that was BC's final push to make this team a playoff contender and that fully signalled this season was gonna be about rebuild.

Jay Triano's main job this season is to teach this young roster how to play and how to be professionals. Winning occassionally is a bonus. Firing JT will serve no purpose as the new coach coming in will have the same issues with this roster. This roster is made up of players that would be 2nd or third string players on playoff teams so try not to be dellusional into thinking a new coach would make this team a playoff team.

The fact that this team is only 11-20 and has managed to beat some top teams is a testament to JT's coaching abilities, especially coaching one of the youngest teams in the league.