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Thread: just curious...

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Default just curious...

    why was buddah's thread re. bargnani coming off the bench closed? i'm not (necessarily) advocating that to happen, but what's so wrong with having the discussion? it's not like he was implying that bargnani should be BENCHED (i.e. not play at all), but coming off the bench & playing ~30 minutes (give or take) each game more than likely wouldn't be a total disaster (i mean, they can't exactly get a whole lot worse, last night notwithstanding), and it would allow him to be what he is...a mercenary of an offensive player, a 7-foot jason terry if you will, and a guy whose defensive & rebounding deficiencies wouldn't be felt to the same extent if he were matched up against an opposition's bench frontcourt, or a tiring starting frontcourt.

    i know it'll never happen, for a variety of reasons, but i'm not sure why there can't be rational discussions about it. there seem to be never-ending arguments over who should be starting at every other position.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    He's got a point. The last 2 games where Bargs didn't play, the first quarters have been very decent. They're not falling behind like crazy. When Bargs and Evans opened games, it was a nightmare. I guess it's hard on BC's ego to have two of his highest paid players (Calderon and Bargs) to be relegated to the bench. However, if the team is interested in being gritty with hustle and heart, Bargs really should be coming off the bench. Here's my grit breakdown:

    True Grit:
    Bayless
    Wright
    Evans
    Dorsey
    Davis
    Johnson

    Somewhat gritty:
    Kleiza
    Barbosa

    No grit:
    Weems
    Calderon
    Derozan
    Bargnani
    Alabi (not fair since he hasn't played at all)
    Stojakovic
    Dupree (just sign - warm body)

    I'm waiting for Liston to come up with 1st quarter defense stats without Bargs in the line-up and the results may or may not surprise people.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    The whole Raptors starting line up is full of players who would be bench players on elite teams. He's the best player on the team like it or not. You need the best player to start. Just because this line up does well one game , doesn't mean it will every night. They aren't exactly the most consistent players. He said Bargnani should come off the bench until we trade him. If Bargnani goes, who leads the team? Kleiza? Yeah ok please...

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    Quote Rg1990 wrote: View Post
    The whole Raptors starting line up is full of players who would be bench players on elite teams. He's the best player on the team like it or not. You need the best player to start. Just because this line up does well one game , doesn't mean it will every night. They aren't exactly the most consistent players. He said Bargnani should come off the bench until we trade him. If Bargnani goes, who leads the team? Kleiza? Yeah ok please...
    i couldnt say anything better

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    I locked it because based on what I read there was nothing of substance outside of a general statement which has beaten to death here at RR a million times and then the responses calling for Buddah's head just reaffirmed that the thread was going nowhere but down.

    But that being said, if it was eloquently addressed like you just did yertu then of course there would be no need to have it locked. So, carry on fellas and let's try and keep things civil at least.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote Rg1990 wrote: View Post
    The whole Raptors starting line up is full of players who would be bench players on elite teams. He's the best player on the team like it or not. You need the best player to start. Just because this line up does well one game , doesn't mean it will every night. They aren't exactly the most consistent players. He said Bargnani should come off the bench until we trade him. If Bargnani goes, who leads the team? Kleiza? Yeah ok please...
    who 'replaces' him as what? the de facto 'best' player on the team? who cares? this season isn't about Ws/Ls, it's about rebuilding, and as history has shown, one of (if not the) best ways to accomplish a successful rebuild is via high lottery picks. not advocating tanking, but there's a way to go about rebuilding smartly, and there's a way to go about rebuilding stupidly.

    i'd argue that you don't necessarily 'need' the best player to start (especially if you're trying to rebuild)...you need your best player(s) to contribute to the best of their abilities, and negate as best as possible their deficiencies. if bargs comes off the bench & is playing significant minutes against bench (read: 2nd-tier) talent, then does that not both improve his offensive efficiency & lessen his deficiencies (at least in theory)? at worst, it forces the opposition to adjust their roster/lineups/minutes accordingly.

    trust me, i'm not basing any of this on last night, because it's foolish to look at 1 game & try to make determinations based upon it. i've been of the mind that bargs' best role in the nba is as an offensive-minded 6th-man who'd cause matchup nightmares for quite a while.
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    who 'replaces' him as what? the de facto 'best' player on the team? who cares? this season isn't about Ws/Ls, it's about rebuilding, and as history has shown, one of (if not the) best ways to accomplish a successful rebuild is via high lottery picks. not advocating tanking, but there's a way to go about rebuilding smartly, and there's a way to go about rebuilding stupidly.

    i'd argue that you don't necessarily 'need' the best player to start (especially if you're trying to rebuild)...you need your best player(s) to contribute to the best of their abilities, and negate as best as possible their deficiencies. if bargs comes off the bench & is playing significant minutes against bench (read: 2nd-tier) talent, then does that not both improve his offensive efficiency & lessen his deficiencies (at least in theory)? at worst, it forces the opposition to adjust their roster/lineups/minutes accordingly.

    trust me, i'm not basing any of this on last night, because it's foolish to look at 1 game & try to make determinations based upon it. i've been of the mind that bargs' best role in the nba is as an offensive-minded 6th-man who'd cause matchup nightmares for quite a while.

    Yes but it is generally a good idea to start your best player. Unless he isn't playing at 100% , I see no other reason to have the top scorer on the team come off the bench. Not many teams would do that. If history repeats itself once again, the raptors won't be rebuilt in one year. It is true that many teams in sports have become good by sucking i.e Tampa Bay Rays, but the Raptors have always been just good enough to miss out on the real diamonds in the draft. When we drafted Derozan, alot of people thought the new age had arrived and that he was the second coming of Vince Carter. Vince was won ROY and was already a superstar in his second season. Demar has improved his numbers this year, but not by much. I still think we should have drafted Brandon Roy in 2006. With the Duo of Roy and Bosh, this team would be beastly. We better hope we get awared a pick in the 1-7 range. And not have another blunder.

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    This team needs the next big superstar. Lets hope we draft the next Kobe.

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    Quote Rg1990 wrote: View Post
    He's the best player on the team like it or not. You need the best player to start.
    He maybe the best offensive player on the team...but there is another dimension to the game, no? He is going to have to improve on his defense quite a bit before one (I) can unequivocally anoint him as the "best" player on the Raps. I am willing to give him this year (a throwaway and evaluating one) to prove he can be at least semi-consistent with his overall defense.

    "If Bargnani goes, who leads the team? Kleiza? Yeah ok please...". This summer there were a few Bosh fans who used the same line with "Bargnani" replaced with "Bosh" and "Kleiza" with "Bargnani".

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