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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Default Raps "Second" youngest team.

    Matt and Jack were discussing during the game, how as the roster stands, the Raptors have the 8th youngest team in the league.
    However; if you take out Peja and Reggie, both of whom aren't playing, (and also both of whom are on Expiring deals) then the Raptors are the SECOND youngest team in the league.
    I've always thought we had to be up there, but this just proves it.
    Let's just hope it turns into something positive.
    And at this point, are we 'young' enough? Is it now time to just start developing the young talent we have and looking for solid vets to chip in?
    Or do get younger and younger? Which is what seems to be pitched around these parts.
    Last edited by Joey; Sun Jan 9th, 2011 at 03:51 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    I tihnk we asses the young talent this year and next year possibly add the more add the final touches, good calln being the 2nd youngest team tough, Id rather be a raptor then a F'ckn cavalier! lol

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    Sad to be a Cavs...when their team was 1st in the conference than dead last...but at least they have many playoffs then us in the last 6-7 years >_<

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jordan-Drexler's Avatar
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    Quote KakashiPrince wrote: View Post
    Sad to be a Cavs...when their team was 1st in the conference than dead last...but at least they have many playoffs then us in the last 6-7 years >_<
    They Say the past is History, the future is a Mystery but today is a gift, thats why its called the present.
    I bet Cleveland fans wish they could regift this present for something else
    What if... Blazers had drafted both Drexler, Jordan?

    From 1992 Beginner's Guide to the NBA Finals, The Oregonian's special section. Published 6/3/1992.

    Michael Jordan was the #3 pick in the 1984 draft, after Portland selected Sam Bowie second.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Jordan-Drexler wrote: View Post
    They Say the past is History, the future is a Mystery but today is a gift, thats why its called the present.
    I bet Cleveland fans wish they could regift this present for something else
    hahaha Very deep and philisophical look at a Cleveland team doomed to be the exact same as they were before he came along. Shit.

    But this post is not about how glad we are we don't live in Cleveland. Though that wouldn't be a bad one for someone to start.......

    I think on a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of outlook we have to be a 9 or 10. Not forgetting about the pieces we have, I say the Raptors Organization and Fanbase should be very excited for the future. Bryan Colangelo has done a commendable job getting pieces and setting us on the right course. He's taken some odd moves to get us here, but he has.
    Now what he does with those pieces is a new Chapter.
    But a 'Youth Movement' has to be deemed successful once you are in talks to be the youngest team in the league, and still not the worst team in terms of output on the court.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    hahaha Very deep and philisophical look at a Cleveland team doomed to be the exact same as they were before he came along. Shit.

    But this post is not about how glad we are we don't live in Cleveland. Though that wouldn't be a bad one for someone to start.......

    I think on a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of outlook we have to be a 9 or 10. Not forgetting about the pieces we have, I say the Raptors Organization and Fanbase should be very excited for the future. Bryan Colangelo has done a commendable job getting pieces and setting us on the right course. He's taken some odd moves to get us here, but he has.
    Now what he does with those pieces is a new Chapter.
    But a 'Youth Movement' has to be deemed successful once you are in talks to be the youngest team in the league, and still not the worst team in terms of output on the court.
    In terms of outlook, I put us at 7 out of 10. There is a lot to look forward to but, IMO, what BC does between now and the trade deadline and at the draft is going to shape this team for seasons to come. The TPE, cap space, multiple 1st round picks one of which will be high, and expiring contracts are all great to have but he has to do something with it all. I'm waiting to see how it plays out but I am optimistic.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    hahaha Very deep and philisophical look at a Cleveland team doomed to be the exact same as they were before he came along. Shit.

    But this post is not about how glad we are we don't live in Cleveland. Though that wouldn't be a bad one for someone to start.......

    I think on a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of outlook we have to be a 9 or 10. Not forgetting about the pieces we have, I say the Raptors Organization and Fanbase should be very excited for the future. Bryan Colangelo has done a commendable job getting pieces and setting us on the right course. He's taken some odd moves to get us here, but he has.
    Now what he does with those pieces is a new Chapter.
    But a 'Youth Movement' has to be deemed successful once you are in talks to be the youngest team in the league, and still not the worst team in terms of output on the court.
    Nah. Sorry to bust your bubble(still drinking the BC Koolaid, Huh?), in terms of outlook, we are a 5 or 6 out of 10. We still need a franchise wing and franchise center. We do not have that now. In terms of outlook at the 9 or 10 rating you gave to the Raptors, the Clippers(franchise big man in Blake Griffin, good shot-blocking and defensive center in DeAndre Jordan and a franchise wing in Eric Gordon, consider the good teaching coach in Vinny Del Negro) or the Kings(franchise center in Demarcus Cousins and franchise wing or guard in Tyreke Evans and get a likely Top 5 pick in the 2011 draft for a franchise wing in Perry Jones or Terrence Jones) are simply better.

    However, we could notch a point up to 7 out of 10 if we draft well in getting a very good SF(Terrence Jones, Perry Jones in the Top 5; Jordan Hamilton, Tyler Honeycutt outside the Top 5) and get a good teaching coach.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie CB4's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    hahaha Very deep and philisophical look at a Cleveland team doomed to be the exact same as they were before he came along. Shit.

    But this post is not about how glad we are we don't live in Cleveland. Though that wouldn't be a bad one for someone to start.......

    I think on a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of outlook we have to be a 9 or 10. Not forgetting about the pieces we have, I say the Raptors Organization and Fanbase should be very excited for the future. Bryan Colangelo has done a commendable job getting pieces and setting us on the right course. He's taken some odd moves to get us here, but he has.
    Now what he does with those pieces is a new Chapter.
    But a 'Youth Movement' has to be deemed successful once you are in talks to be the youngest team in the league, and still not the worst team in terms of output on the court.
    A team that has an outlook of 9 or 10 would be teams like the Clippers and Thunder, or even Portland before all their injuries. I also think Colangelo has been far from "commendable" in terms of setting us up for future success. Examples include bad contracts, trading Roy Hibbert for Jermaine O'Neal, and not getting any talent back for Bosh.

    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    The scoring that Bargs gives back at the other end by not rebounding and displaying terrible help defense? Really? I am not gonna say much after such statement. It is obvious you choose offense over defense(the Phoenix Suns look like a good model for the Raptors to aspire to) but I would rather be a fan of defense with an average offense a la the Chicago Bulls or Celtics(who have gone to the finals twice unlike the Phoenix Suns model you seem to prefer that has won nada in the post-season).
    No doubt, I would much rather be a good defensive team. The Suns had a lot more weapons than we ever did. Part of the problem is our roster is filled with one-dimensional players. Our closest thing to a two-way player would probably be Jerryd Bayless and Amir Johnson.
    Last edited by CB4; Sun Jan 9th, 2011 at 10:42 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jordan-Drexler's Avatar
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    I see toronto like how Seattle was the year before Durant, or Chicago the year before Rose.
    What if... Blazers had drafted both Drexler, Jordan?

    From 1992 Beginner's Guide to the NBA Finals, The Oregonian's special section. Published 6/3/1992.

    Michael Jordan was the #3 pick in the 1984 draft, after Portland selected Sam Bowie second.

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    Quote Jordan-Drexler wrote: View Post
    I see toronto like how Seattle was the year before Durant, or Chicago the year before Rose.
    but not with the superstar draft pick(we will likely be out of the Top 5) a la OKC or Chicago.lol.

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    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse

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    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
    [albertan_10]
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    Hopefully BC can make something with the assets he has (to trade).
    .

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jordan-Drexler's Avatar
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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
    Get this. In the last 30 years no team has ever made it to the nba Finals without having a top 10 Defence. In the entire history of the NBA every team that has ever won the nba Title had a top 3 defence.
    If the raptors are ever going to win a title (which should be the goal at some point down the line) they NEEEED DEFENCE, or break nearly 60 years of history.
    What if... Blazers had drafted both Drexler, Jordan?

    From 1992 Beginner's Guide to the NBA Finals, The Oregonian's special section. Published 6/3/1992.

    Michael Jordan was the #3 pick in the 1984 draft, after Portland selected Sam Bowie second.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Jordan-Drexler wrote: View Post
    Get this. In the last 30 years no team has ever made it to the nba Finals without having a top 10 Defence. In the entire history of the NBA every team that has ever won the nba Title had a top 3 defence.
    If the raptors are ever going to win a title (which should be the goal at some point down the line) they NEEEED DEFENCE, or break nearly 60 years of history.
    Solid stat. Was looking for something like this actually.

    But I think it should be clarified, that I don't think ANYONE is actually happy with the Raptors defense. Just some of us realize that there is nothing WE can do, and so we just accept it as professional sports and still enjoy it regardless.
    Obviously I would enjoy it more if the Raps were top 10 defense, but to say that we SHOULD be is just as obsurd.

    Its going to take MANY years before we become anywhere close to a respectable team defensively.
    And so until then, I'm going to be happy not winning a title, and maybe just getting into the Second Round at some point.

    Baby Steps, right? haha

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
    But then there's Milwaukee, Chicago and Atlanta who all have great defenses, giving up 11-12 less PPG than the Raptors. Youth may have something to do with defensive problems but I think it has more to do with the Raptors culture. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson are both examples of young players on the Raptors who do not share the typical Raptors mentality. I think if the Raptors are ever to play good team defense they need to bring in guys who are good at defense and forget about "fixing" hopeless causes like Jose Calderon. In my opinion the two most import positions on defense are in the low post and on the perimeter matched up against the other team's floor general. It just so happens that Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon guard those slots. To Andrea's defense, there is hope for him because he sometimes brings it. Jose on the other hand is hopeless. The Raptors will never become a good defensive team with Jose Calderon on the floor.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jan 10th, 2011 at 08:38 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Maybe its having Bargs and jose together. when they coexist on the floor together the D suffer but the O excels.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    But then there's Milwaukee, Chicago and Atlanta who all have great defenses, giving up 11-12 less PPG than the Raptors. Youth may have something to do with defensive problems but I think it has more to do with the Raptors culture. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson are both examples of young players on the Raptors who do not share the typical Raptors mentality. I think if the Raptors are ever to play good team defense they need to bring in guys who are good at defense and forget about "fixing" hopeless causes like Jose Calderon. In my opinion the two most import positions on defense are in the low post and on the perimeter matched up against the other team's floor general. It just so happens that Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon guard those slots. To Andrea's defense, there is hope for him because he sometimes brings it. Jose on the other hand is hopeless. The Raptors will never become a good defensive team with Jose Calderon on the floor.
    All fact. Hopefully Ed can educate the rest of the young guns on some Defensive positioning.

    And to further your point, Andrea has shown he is a very capable defender in years past. I think this year with us relying on him on the Offensive end of the floor, has maybe taken away from him being able to get back as much/often/quickly. Either way, I think once he settles down, he will revert back to his 1+bpg while continuing to give around 7-8 rbs. Thats solid and I think we'd all be happy.

    As with Jose, I also do agree to an extent, but whats scary is he is leading the team in steals ... and they're pretty much never taken to the detriment of the defense.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    As with Jose, I also do agree to an extent, but whats scary is he is leading the team in steals ... and they're pretty much never taken to the detriment of the defense.
    1.2 steals per game while guarding the position that dominates the ball. That would place him 16th among point guards.

    Steals can be a detrimental on defense depending on how they're obtained. Is the player taking chances to get those steals and are those failed chances leading to opposing team baskets? How many of those types of plays are happening per game? This is why the steal stat category can never quantify defensive skill alone. 1.2 steals is respectable for that category but being first in that category on the Raptors team isn't really an accomplishment.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    1.2 steals per game while guarding the position that dominates the ball. That would place him 16th among point guards.

    Steals can be a detrimental on defense depending on how they're obtained. Is the player taking chances to get those steals and are those failed chances leading to opposing team baskets? How many of those types of plays are happening per game? This is why the steal stat category can never quantify defensive skill alone. 1.2 steals is respectable for that category but being first in that category on the Raptors team isn't really an accomplishment.
    I understand steals CAN be to the detriment of the team. I'm saying Jose's are not. Which is my point. He is never caught lunging into the passing lanes, or reaching and picking up stupid fouls. Obviously it doesn't make him All-Defensive team, but it should be acknowledged that Jose has gotten better on the defensive end while maintaining very high production on the other end of the floor. To say he only gets his steal because he's a PG isn't really fair to him, as there are very clearly other PGs in the league who do not get 1.2 stls per game while almost putting up a double double every night.
    As you said Steals are not the be-all and end-all of defense, but I think they are ABSOLUTELY a valid stat while evaluating ones defense and capabilities as a defensive presense.

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    if we are not counting reggie and peja, than shouldn't we also not count players like eddie curry on the knicks and mo pete on the thunder ?

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