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Thread: Raps "Second" youngest team.

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
    [albertan_10]
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  2. #22
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
    But then there's Milwaukee, Chicago and Atlanta who all have great defenses, giving up 11-12 less PPG than the Raptors. Youth may have something to do with defensive problems but I think it has more to do with the Raptors culture. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson are both examples of young players on the Raptors who do not share the typical Raptors mentality. I think if the Raptors are ever to play good team defense they need to bring in guys who are good at defense and forget about "fixing" hopeless causes like Jose Calderon. In my opinion the two most import positions on defense are in the low post and on the perimeter matched up against the other team's floor general. It just so happens that Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon guard those slots. To Andrea's defense, there is hope for him because he sometimes brings it. Jose on the other hand is hopeless. The Raptors will never become a good defensive team with Jose Calderon on the floor.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jan 10th, 2011 at 08:38 AM.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Maybe its having Bargs and jose together. when they coexist on the floor together the D suffer but the O excels.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Rookie Jordan-Drexler's Avatar
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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
    Get this. In the last 30 years no team has ever made it to the nba Finals without having a top 10 Defence. In the entire history of the NBA every team that has ever won the nba Title had a top 3 defence.
    If the raptors are ever going to win a title (which should be the goal at some point down the line) they NEEEED DEFENCE, or break nearly 60 years of history.
    What if... Blazers had drafted both Drexler, Jordan?

    From 1992 Beginner's Guide to the NBA Finals, The Oregonian's special section. Published 6/3/1992.

    Michael Jordan was the #3 pick in the 1984 draft, after Portland selected Sam Bowie second.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Jordan-Drexler wrote: View Post
    Get this. In the last 30 years no team has ever made it to the nba Finals without having a top 10 Defence. In the entire history of the NBA every team that has ever won the nba Title had a top 3 defence.
    If the raptors are ever going to win a title (which should be the goal at some point down the line) they NEEEED DEFENCE, or break nearly 60 years of history.
    Solid stat. Was looking for something like this actually.

    But I think it should be clarified, that I don't think ANYONE is actually happy with the Raptors defense. Just some of us realize that there is nothing WE can do, and so we just accept it as professional sports and still enjoy it regardless.
    Obviously I would enjoy it more if the Raps were top 10 defense, but to say that we SHOULD be is just as obsurd.

    Its going to take MANY years before we become anywhere close to a respectable team defensively.
    And so until then, I'm going to be happy not winning a title, and maybe just getting into the Second Round at some point.

    Baby Steps, right? haha

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    if we are not counting reggie and peja, than shouldn't we also not count players like eddie curry on the knicks and mo pete on the thunder ?

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote UwanSUMhotFYUH wrote: View Post
    if we are not counting reggie and peja, than shouldn't we also not count players like eddie curry on the knicks and mo pete on the thunder ?
    Valid point. Haven't done the math, but I bet we still come in younger. Would be close though for sure.

    Is Mo Pete not even playing anymore? Bummer. Was good for us, for a couple of years. Class-Act too.

  8. #28
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    But then there's Milwaukee, Chicago and Atlanta who all have great defenses, giving up 11-12 less PPG than the Raptors. Youth may have something to do with defensive problems but I think it has more to do with the Raptors culture. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson are both examples of young players on the Raptors who do not share the typical Raptors mentality. I think if the Raptors are ever to play good team defense they need to bring in guys who are good at defense and forget about "fixing" hopeless causes like Jose Calderon. In my opinion the two most import positions on defense are in the low post and on the perimeter matched up against the other team's floor general. It just so happens that Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon guard those slots. To Andrea's defense, there is hope for him because he sometimes brings it. Jose on the other hand is hopeless. The Raptors will never become a good defensive team with Jose Calderon on the floor.
    All fact. Hopefully Ed can educate the rest of the young guns on some Defensive positioning.

    And to further your point, Andrea has shown he is a very capable defender in years past. I think this year with us relying on him on the Offensive end of the floor, has maybe taken away from him being able to get back as much/often/quickly. Either way, I think once he settles down, he will revert back to his 1+bpg while continuing to give around 7-8 rbs. Thats solid and I think we'd all be happy.

    As with Jose, I also do agree to an extent, but whats scary is he is leading the team in steals ... and they're pretty much never taken to the detriment of the defense.

  9. #29
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    As with Jose, I also do agree to an extent, but whats scary is he is leading the team in steals ... and they're pretty much never taken to the detriment of the defense.
    1.2 steals per game while guarding the position that dominates the ball. That would place him 16th among point guards.

    Steals can be a detrimental on defense depending on how they're obtained. Is the player taking chances to get those steals and are those failed chances leading to opposing team baskets? How many of those types of plays are happening per game? This is why the steal stat category can never quantify defensive skill alone. 1.2 steals is respectable for that category but being first in that category on the Raptors team isn't really an accomplishment.

  10. #30
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    1.2 steals per game while guarding the position that dominates the ball. That would place him 16th among point guards.

    Steals can be a detrimental on defense depending on how they're obtained. Is the player taking chances to get those steals and are those failed chances leading to opposing team baskets? How many of those types of plays are happening per game? This is why the steal stat category can never quantify defensive skill alone. 1.2 steals is respectable for that category but being first in that category on the Raptors team isn't really an accomplishment.
    I understand steals CAN be to the detriment of the team. I'm saying Jose's are not. Which is my point. He is never caught lunging into the passing lanes, or reaching and picking up stupid fouls. Obviously it doesn't make him All-Defensive team, but it should be acknowledged that Jose has gotten better on the defensive end while maintaining very high production on the other end of the floor. To say he only gets his steal because he's a PG isn't really fair to him, as there are very clearly other PGs in the league who do not get 1.2 stls per game while almost putting up a double double every night.
    As you said Steals are not the be-all and end-all of defense, but I think they are ABSOLUTELY a valid stat while evaluating ones defense and capabilities as a defensive presense.

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