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Thread: Triano Finally calls out Demar and Barg's Effort

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Bargnani played more minutes than both Amir and Davis. And Dorsey played all of two minutes.

    As for playing when your knees are messed up, I don't think you have any idea who you're talking to. I'm currently out with my 4th major knee injury since I was 20. And that's not counting the numerous times my knee(s) simply hurt or I tweaked them. I've played most of my adult life on bad knees. At my age, EVERYTHING hurts when you play. I've played when I couldn't walk up the stairs. I've played with torn ligament in my ankle. I've played with dislocated and broken fingers. I've played with concussions, a fractured orbit bone (so I couldn't feel half my face), a chipped vertebrae (I can't tell you how painful that was), numerous sprains and I always played hard, especially on defense. The only times I have not played is when playing would cause great harm to an injury (and even then sometimes). And I've never once been paid to play basketball. Obviously there were times when I had to alter my game because of some injury, but I never played with the lack of energy that Bargnani did. There were obviously things I could not do that I could normally do, but I always found a way to help my team win.

    Playing injured is not an excuse. Believe me. I never, ever want to hear that someone couldn't give full effort because he was injured.
    I played football with ripped ligaments in my knee, so I know exactly how it is to have messed up knees and to try to play through pain. So I don't think you want to be calling me out.

    You're not as effective when you have something bothering you like a knee injury and trying to play at a high level. It's not like you're playing pickup ball at the Y or CIS ball. This is the highest level of ball in the world. This team is such a mash unit, it's not like they can afford to rest Bargnani in order for him to recover.

    Then again, in terms of Bargnani, I can see his knees getting in the way on the offensive end because if your knees are not in your shot, chances are, that ball isn't as likely to go in the hoop. However, have we ever really seen him play with emotion or any real effort? Even when healthy healthy, it looks like he doesn't put out much effort on the defensive end anyway.

  2. #22
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I played football with ripped ligaments in my knee, so I know exactly how it is to have messed up knees and to try to play through pain. So I don't think you want to be calling me out.

    You're not as effective when you have something bothering you like a knee injury and trying to play at a high level. It's not like you're playing pickup ball at the Y or CIS ball. This is the highest level of ball in the world. This team is such a mash unit, it's not like they can afford to rest Bargnani in order for him to recover.

    Then again, in terms of Bargnani, I can see his knees getting in the way on the offensive end because if your knees are not in your shot, chances are, that ball isn't as likely to go in the hoop. However, have we ever really seen him play with emotion or any real effort? Even when healthy healthy, it looks like he doesn't put out much effort on the defensive end anyway.
    I'm not calling you out, but you said...

    Try playing when your knees are messed up. I can guarantee that your game goes out the window.
    I obviously have. And obviously haven't played at a high level, but my complaint is not in his effectiveness on the offensive end. It never has been. I'm never going to bash a guy for having a few games where he can't hit a shot. Anyone who's ever played or even watched basketball knows that happens on a frequent basis. The problem with Bargnani, though, is when he's not hitting he's a complete liability. When I'm hurting, I try and find a way to be effective. That's what all good players do.

    I remember a game earlier this year when Tim Duncan couldn't score, so he became a passer and helped his team win, and when asked about it, Duncan simply said he realized he couldn't hit a shot, so he better pass the ball, instead. Makes sense. Good players find a way to be effective. I don't care about emotion. I care about effectiveness.
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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I obviously have. And obviously haven't played at a high level, but my complaint is not in his effectiveness on the offensive end. It never has been. I'm never going to bash a guy for having a few games where he can't hit a shot. Anyone who's ever played or even watched basketball knows that happens on a frequent basis. The problem with Bargnani, though, is when he's not hitting he's a complete liability. When I'm hurting, I try and find a way to be effective. That's what all good players do.

    I remember a game earlier this year when Tim Duncan couldn't score, so he became a passer and helped his team win, and when asked about it, Duncan simply said he realized he couldn't hit a shot, so he better pass the ball, instead. Makes sense. Good players find a way to be effective. I don't care about emotion. I care about effectiveness.
    I take back what I said to you and you're right, I'm sorry. You're right. When your shot isn't falling, your focus should be on other aspects of the game. What shouldn't be spared every night is a lack of effort, running up and down the court - I know with his knees, it's a problem to do that, but he should have been trying to be a better passer, trying to box out, playing with more emotion, but as we all know, him being in his 5th season now, that really isn't Andrea's game.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I have no problem with coaches being tough on their players, but going to the media should be an absolute last resort, and it's unfortunately not with a lot of coaches. Don Nelson and Larry Brown are two long time coaches who tend to alienate players because they speak to the media too much. Jerry Sloan and Gregg Popovich are both hard nosed coaches who don't tend to air their dirty laundry.

    I don't have a problem with what Triano did, but some fans seem to want him to do it all the time, and that wouldn't work.
    How often does Jay complain to the media about his players? Not very often. That should tell you a lot about his actions on this. I am behind it 100%. You can't pull out the big guns all the time or it loses it's effect but once in a while it's good. I don't expect Jay to change his philosophy.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Yeah, he's playing like a guy who's only played 120 games in the league.
    The pass he made on the first possession is a mistake that would see you benched in JV ball. A set play was run with the first option being an entry pass to Bargs off a screen - pretty basic stuff - and he F'ed it up.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    I still say there's no sense in playing injured players heavy minutes during a development season, when you have prospects getting no playing time. Granted the past few games have been close and winnable, but Bargnani was at no point during the last game effective. At a certain point, you cut your losses, and realise a prospect that needs playing time to develop can't be much that much worse of an option than overplaying injured starters.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Putting Dorsey in instead, for example, to counter DeJuan Blair. Much more sensible.

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    Well , it was a sh*t show across the board last night. At the end of the first it looked like Bargs was doing awesome, his falling out of bounds wild shot plus the fould would have been all over espn if we had won the game. Then he reverted to 3pt mode, for whatever reason, and wasnt effective. What really killed us was the turnovers. DD and Jose and JB were the main culprits. Bargs' missed shots and defense on Dejuan was harsh, but those turnovers lead directly to points each and every time, got the fans into it, and killed our pop. Overall everyone played well and sucked at different moments in the game. At least no Kleiza, i wonder how bad we would have lost if he was playing.

    PS- Juju's pass to Caldy was a thing of beauty

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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    I still say there's no sense in playing injured players heavy minutes during a development season, when you have prospects getting no playing time. Granted the past few games have been close and winnable, but Bargnani was at no point during the last game effective. At a certain point, you cut your losses, and realise a prospect that needs playing time to develop can't be much that much worse of an option than overplaying injured starters.
    +1

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    Quote black angus wrote: View Post
    The pass he made on the first possession is a mistake that would see you benched in JV ball. A set play was run with the first option being an entry pass to Bargs off a screen - pretty basic stuff - and he F'ed it up.
    In the NBA, you're not going to bench one of your best players because of one bad pass. DeRozan gave effort the entire game. When San Antonio started doubling him, he had no idea what to do, probably not having seen a double team since high school. Handling double teams is obviously something DeRozan needs to work on, but that game was the first time I ever remember seeing him doubled.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    In the NBA, you're not going to bench one of your best players because of one bad pass. DeRozan gave effort the entire game. When San Antonio started doubling him, he had no idea what to do, probably not having seen a double team since high school. Handling double teams is obviously something DeRozan needs to work on, but that game was the first time I ever remember seeing him doubled.
    I've seen him doubled, but nothing like last night. They smothered him. Patented Spurs aggression. I'm sure DD will learn from it and not let it happen again. He seems to have a lot of pride in his game.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Bargnani played more minutes than both Amir and Davis. And Dorsey played all of two minutes.

    As for playing when your knees are messed up, I don't think you have any idea who you're talking to. I'm currently out with my 4th major knee injury since I was 20. And that's not counting the numerous times my knee(s) simply hurt or I tweaked them. I've played most of my adult life on bad knees. At my age, EVERYTHING hurts when you play. I've played when I couldn't walk up the stairs. I've played with torn ligament in my ankle. I've played with dislocated and broken fingers. I've played with concussions, a fractured orbit bone (so I couldn't feel half my face), a chipped vertebrae (I can't tell you how painful that was), numerous sprains and I always played hard, especially on defense. The only times I have not played is when playing would cause great harm to an injury (and even then sometimes). And I've never once been paid to play basketball. Obviously there were times when I had to alter my game because of some injury, but I never played with the lack of energy that Bargnani did. There were obviously things I could not do that I could normally do, but I always found a way to help my team win.

    Playing injured is not an excuse. Believe me. I never, ever want to hear that someone couldn't give full effort because he was injured.
    Sorry man, i know youre hardcore and all and always playing with heart, but you have to understand that these guys dont play just because they want to, or because they bleed basketball, these are professional athletes, they get paid to play. and i know youd probably say that they should be playing harder because theyre getting paid, its actually the opposite, the moment they feel something, they get worried, coz further injury can kill their career in an instant. if they cant play, they dont get paid. with us, we play in a gym, get injured, call in sick to work then come to work the next day. thats it. these guys have to suck it up. so i commend bargs if he is truly injured and still playing eventhough he's not playing to his potential. these guys play 82 games in a year, and practice sometimes 2x a day. give these guys credit. ive played college ball, and ive seen our star players get shots on aching joints, they are able to finish games, but the next day they literally cant walk because thats when the pain kicks in. i think its on the trainers to figure out if their players are really injured. if bargs is injured, i think the team should rest him till he's a 100%. i think he's doing more damage to the team and his body playing through injury.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    1-2 bad passes is ok, but more than that i think it needs to be called out.
    demar had a couple of bad passes but i think it was due to the double team, something he hasnt seen much until now. im not sure if it was leo or matt who said it, but demar is slowly being regarded as a scoring threat now so he should expect double teams and figure out how to get out of them.
    i still hate the throwing up the arms in the air and screaming on touch fouls. he should take care of the ball more and score rather than get the refs attention on possible fouls.
    i dont mind coaches calling out players through the media, as long as they get asked, and not just out of the blue say, oh my player didnt do this or that. if a reporter asks, i think its just fair to answer the question straight up.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Sorry man, i know youre hardcore and all and always playing with heart, but you have to understand that these guys dont play just because they want to, or because they bleed basketball, these are professional athletes, they get paid to play. and i know youd probably say that they should be playing harder because theyre getting paid, its actually the opposite, the moment they feel something, they get worried, coz further injury can kill their career in an instant. if they cant play, they dont get paid. with us, we play in a gym, get injured, call in sick to work then come to work the next day. thats it. these guys have to suck it up. so i commend bargs if he is truly injured and still playing eventhough he's not playing to his potential. these guys play 82 games in a year, and practice sometimes 2x a day. give these guys credit. ive played college ball, and ive seen our star players get shots on aching joints, they are able to finish games, but the next day they literally cant walk because thats when the pain kicks in. i think its on the trainers to figure out if their players are really injured. if bargs is injured, i think the team should rest him till he's a 100%. i think he's doing more damage to the team and his body playing through injury.
    +1

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    1-2 bad passes is ok, but more than that i think it needs to be called out.
    demar had a couple of bad passes but i think it was due to the double team, something he hasnt seen much until now. im not sure if it was leo or matt who said it, but demar is slowly being regarded as a scoring threat now so he should expect double teams and figure out how to get out of them.
    i still hate the throwing up the arms in the air and screaming on touch fouls. he should take care of the ball more and score rather than get the refs attention on possible fouls.
    i dont mind coaches calling out players through the media, as long as they get asked, and not just out of the blue say, oh my player didnt do this or that. if a reporter asks, i think its just fair to answer the question straight up.
    Ohhh the world famous CB4 arm flail touch foul. I hope DD un-learns that trick soon.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Ohhh the world famous CB4 arm flail touch foul. I hope DD un-learns that trick soon.
    he got that from Turk too.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Ohhh the world famous CB4 arm flail touch foul. I hope DD un-learns that trick soon.
    unlike D-rose, when that guy drives, seems like he gets 20 hacks to his arms, face and hands and still manages an and1.

    griffin too.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    unlike D-rose, when that guy drives, seems like he gets 20 hacks to his arms, face and hands and still manages an and1.

    griffin too.
    That's true. I see Kobe do it alot too, and everyone's fav, Paul Pierce.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Sorry man, i know youre hardcore and all and always playing with heart, but you have to understand that these guys dont play just because they want to, or because they bleed basketball, these are professional athletes, they get paid to play. and i know youd probably say that they should be playing harder because theyre getting paid, its actually the opposite, the moment they feel something, they get worried, coz further injury can kill their career in an instant. if they cant play, they dont get paid. with us, we play in a gym, get injured, call in sick to work then come to work the next day. thats it. these guys have to suck it up. so i commend bargs if he is truly injured and still playing eventhough he's not playing to his potential. these guys play 82 games in a year, and practice sometimes 2x a day. give these guys credit. ive played college ball, and ive seen our star players get shots on aching joints, they are able to finish games, but the next day they literally cant walk because thats when the pain kicks in. i think its on the trainers to figure out if their players are really injured. if bargs is injured, i think the team should rest him till he's a 100%. i think he's doing more damage to the team and his body playing through injury.
    If Bargnani was really hurting enough that he felt he was in danger of further injury, he should have insisted on sitting. For the good of him AND the team. It's not as if the guy has a history of begging out of games. You either play hard or you don't play. Good players don't play hurt just to be on the floor, even if they are hurting their team. Calderon, Johnson, Bayless and other Raptors have all played injured this year, but all of them found a way to be effective. As I said, that's what good players do.

    Besides, this is not just on Bargnani, but Triano, who should have subbed him out early and kept him on the bench. The problem with Bargnani, as I've stated, is he is a one dimensional player. If he's not scoring, he isn't effective. If he could find a way to be effective without scoring, he'd be a far, far better player.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote black angus wrote: View Post
    The pass he made on the first possession is a mistake that would see you benched in JV ball. A set play was run with the first option being an entry pass to Bargs off a screen - pretty basic stuff - and he F'ed it up.
    Yeah, he made a bad play. So...

    You start benching guys for making mental error all the time and suddenly they're looking over their shoulder all the time and making more and more mistakes.
    Last edited by Apollo; Thu Jan 20th, 2011 at 04:20 PM.

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