Feelings About The Playoffs And Tanking

[Raptor4Ever]

Jaret Jack + David Andersen + Marcus Banks for
Ajinca + Jarid Bayless + 2nd round pick + cash - is a great trade!

Wrong !!!!

Jaret Jack + David Andersen + Marcus Banks + 10 Million for
Ajinca + Jarid Bayless + 2nd round pick + cash


Yes, I am loving what BC is doing as well this year. Lets see what was wrong with the team last year and how it got little fixed or atleast we see sign of improvment:

1) Defence : We are dead last in the league.

2) Rebounding: We are the same or worst this year.

3) Player development: AB still does not rebound or has a post up move. Amir Johnson can not dribble the ball to save his life. DD same as last year with no major improvement and ... List goes on and on ....


Yes, I am loving what BC and Jay are doing in Raptor Land.

[Tim W.]

Hell we've suffered through so many bad seasons what is 30 more games?

So what are you proposing the Raptors do for the other 6 games? Try and win?

[Tim W.]

Wrong !!!!

Jaret Jack + David Andersen + Marcus Banks + 10 Million for
Ajinca + Jarid Bayless + 2nd round pick + cash


Yes, I am loving what BC is doing as well this year. Lets see what was wrong with the team last year and how it got little fixed or atleast we see sign of improvment:

1) Defence : We are dead last in the league.

2) Rebounding: We are the same or worst this year.

3) Player development: AB still does not rebound or has a post up move. Amir Johnson can not dribble the ball to save his life. DD same as last year with no major improvement and ... List goes on and on ....


Yes, I am loving what BC and Jay are doing in Raptor Land.

Can you please cease with this $10 million crap that you've apparently pulled out your ass. IT'S NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!! You tried to argue this in another thread and your premise was shot completely to shreds. The Raptors saved $3 million in total with the trade. And have more cap room this summer.

And your statement that the team is the same or worse rebounding as last year is also completely and utterly false. Do you do ANY research before coming to conclusions?

As for development, I'm not going to argue about Bargnani, but you do realize that Amir is a big man and not expected to handle the ball, don't you? He's no better or worse than most other big men, so I don't really care about that. He's improved his jumpshot and post offense, and his production has increased. Plus, he's fouling at the lowest rate of his career.

And your assertion that DeRozan has not shown any major improvement pretty much proves you haven't been watching much this year. You do know the guy is averaging around 20 ppg the last month, don't you? His jumpshot is WAY more accurate (although still needs work) and his ballhandling has improved. Hell, even Bargnani has made strides on the offensive end. \

I understand you don't like what you're seeing, but simply making things up doesn't actually constitute an argument. It just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

[Apollo]

Again, why do you keep saying "trainwrecking" or "tanking". I haven't suggested trading away the good players on the team. That would be tanking or trainwrecking. The Raptors have some nice building blocks for the future and some good assets, but they lack the true superstar to lead them.

Train wrecking isn't a fire sale race to the top of the lotto. Train wrecking is doing horrible because the team is horrible for whatever reason.

San Antonio's entire fortunes changed because of one bad season when they added a high pick.

The Spur would have never found the success they had last decade without drafting more good players than Tim Duncan.

Portland dismantled their team and lost badly in order to get a high lottery pick.

Portland dismantled it because their time was done and they needed to restock young talent. The goal wasn't to tank to get high picks. The goal was out with the old, in with the new and through doing it they drafted enough bad seeds to become notoriously known throughout the league as the Portland Jailblazers. Then they tore it down again and restocked talents of high character and again, the goal wasn't tanking then either. They added more picks through trades and purchases.

When Seattle landed Kevin Durant, they completely dismantled the team to build around him. The difference is that the Raptors have a lot more assets than Seattle did, at the time.

That looked like a tank to me. Either way, the Raptors don't play that game.

What if Chicago hadn't landed Derrick Rose? Where would they be? What if Seattle had won a few more games the season before they drafted Kevin Durant? Both Chicago and Oklahoma have All Star calibre players outside of their franchise players, but neither would be even think about contending without Rose and Durant. They both would probably be vying for a final playoff spot.

We don't know how either team will pan out and for the record Chicago was extremely lucky they landed Rose and that season they were playing for the playoffs. Before that they failed miserably in the lotto drafting the likes of Eddy Curry very high.

Yes, I've fully admitted you can draft a superstar later in the draft. There's no denying that. There's also no denying that you can win millions of dollars by winning the lottery, but banking on it would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it?

That's weak. Moving on...

Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash were all drafted at least 12 years ago. Notice that fewer and fewer superstars are being found lower in the draft? Chris Paul, LeBron, Carmelo, Deron Williams, Wade, Howard, Rose, Roy, Gasol, Bogut, Yao, Westbrook. All guys who have, or will this year, made one of the All-NBA teams and all were drafted in the top 5. Only two players drafted in the last ten years who were NOT drafted in the top ten are Tony Parker and Amare Stoudemire.

Paul George has future superstar written all over him and he was taken 10th this year. Brandon Jennings has all the talent in the world to be a top tier PG and some might call that a Superstar. He was taken tenth two years ago. Three years ago Eric Gordon was taken 7th and he's approaching Superstar type numbers. Same year you have Brook Lopez going tenth. Four years ago Joakim Noah went 9th. Five years ago, Brandon Roy went 6th. Rudy Gay went 8th. Rajon Rondo went 21st. Year before that Andrew Bynum went 10th. Danny Granger went 17th. Monta Ellis went 40th. These are some of the guys who could be competing for MVPs someday and the reason why they're not be touted as such now is because they're still young and developing. Dirk won it at 28. Nash won it at 30 and again at 31. Kobe won one at 28. The kids need time to develop before you can make such a bold statement. The norm win it in their prime, orclose to the end of their prime. LeBron James is a rarity that only comes along once a generation.

You can trade them, but the fact is you're relying on others to give you what you want in return.

Like I've said, you can always find good players late in the draft. I've already shown that it's nearly impossible to find a potential superstar late nowadays. And the fact is that while you CAN find a really good player, it's incredibly difficult to do so. You rely on a) a player you want dropping and b) another team not seeing the same thing you do. Very risky.

Then what should one rely on? One's own ability to lose a lot of basketball games? I know your not saying you condone tanking but some of your comments are suggesting something different.

To me, it's messed up mortgaging the future for immediate gratification, which is what I feel people who want them to make the playoffs are doing. It's all a matter of perspective.

Well it's a good thing no one around here has suggested that they should mortgage their future for immediate gratification.

Answer me this:

Developing young talent doesn't always lead to high lotto picks. So what are those teams to do if they need those high picks if they ever hope to reach their goal of a championship?

EDIT: To tie that last point in. In my opinion, next year the Raptors will be highly improved. They won't be vying for a top lotto pick next year. If they don't land a superstar in this weak draft then they're doomed?

[Tim W.]

Train wrecking isn't a fire sale race to the top of the lotto. Train wrecking is doing horrible because the team is horrible for whatever reason.

Well, if you haven't noticed, the team IS doing horrible. And one of the reasons they are horrible is because they lack talent.

The Spur would have never found the success they had last decade without drafting more good players than Tim Duncan.

I'm sorry. Have I ever suggested once that the Spurs only found success due to TIm Duncan? In fact I said that if they hadn't drafted Tony Parker, they probably wouldn't be where they are right now.

For some reason you seem to be under the impression that I believe getting the top pick is a guarantee of success. It's obviously not. It's and important KEY to becoming a successful team, but you need more than just a superstar to win.

Portland dismantled it because their time was done and they needed to restock young talent. The goal wasn't to tank to get high picks. The goal was out with the old, in with the new and through doing it they drafted enough bad seeds to become notoriously known throughout the league as the Portland Jailblazers. Then they tore it down again and restocked talents of high character and again, the goal wasn't tanking then either. They added more picks through trades and purchases.

Can we please stop this tanking business? I've said time and time again that me hoping that the Raptors get a high pick IS NOT TANKING. I have no control over the Raptors success on the court. I've already argued this point, but you keep ignoring it.

That looked like a tank to me. Either way, the Raptors don't play that game.

They play in the NBA just like the Sonics/Oklahoma did/do. And neither of us is in charge of the Raptors, so we can't say what they do or do not do.

We don't know how either team will pan out and for the record Chicago was extremely lucky they landed Rose and that season they were playing for the playoffs. Before that they failed miserably in the lotto drafting the likes of Eddy Curry very high.

Again, Ive never once suggested drafting high is a guarantee of anything. You keep making it seem like I am and I clearly am not. There's high probablity and low probability. I'm suggesting going the route with the higher probability to getting what you need.

That's weak. Moving on...

No, it's actually not. As I stated above, assuming you're going to find a superstar with a lower pick is like playing the lottery. How many All-NBA players have been drafted in the top 5 as compared to being drafted in 10-15? It's not rocket science, here.

Paul George has future superstar written all over him and he was taken 10th this year. Brandon Jennings has all the talent in the world to be a top tier PG and some might call that a Superstar. He was taken tenth two years ago. Three years ago Eric Gordon was taken 7th and he's approaching Superstar type numbers. Same year you have Brook Lopez going tenth. Four years ago Joakim Noah went 9th. Five years ago, Brandon Roy went 6th. Rudy Gay went 8th. Rajon Rondo went 21st. Year before that Andrew Bynum went 10th. Danny Granger went 17th. Monta Ellis went 40th. These are some of the guys who could be competing for MVPs someday and the reason why they're not be touted as such now is because they're still young and developing. Dirk won it at 28. Nash won it at 30 and again at 31. Kobe won one at 28. The kids need time to develop before you can make such a bold statement. The norm win it in their prime, orclose to the end of their prime. LeBron James is a rarity that only comes along once a generation.

Again, I've never said that it's IMPOSSIBLE to find good talent outside of the top 5, but for every one you name outside of the top ten I can name 3 who were drafted in the top 5. The fact is that the lower you draft the less chance you have of finding talent. It's a simple and undeniable fact. You are saying that you don't mind if the Raptors lower their chance of finding more real talent. I do. You can say you trust Colangelo to find it, but the point is that it may not be there. The lower you draft the less likely it is for there to be ANYONE who will become a good player, whether or not you are good at finding them.

Then what should one rely on? One's own ability to lose a lot of basketball games? I know your not saying you condone tanking but some of your comments are suggesting something different.

Well, you play the numbers game. The fact of the matter is that Kyrie Irving is really the only player, at this point, that looks like sure-fire talent. Yes, there's a chance you don't get him, but the Raptors would be SO much better off if they draft Irving than if they make the playoffs.

And as I've said, I'm not in charge. Me hoping they get a high pick has no affect on the team. I don't want to see players or coaches throw games. That would be horrible and would mean Colangelo would pretty much have to blow up the team after the season. You can't do that. But you can't deny that the fortunes of the team would be better if they got the #1 pick than if they made the playoffs.

Well it's a good thing no one around here has suggested that they should mortgage their future for immediate gratification.

If you would rather see the team make the playoffs than get a high pick, thus possibly missing out on a potential star, that's pretty much what you're doing.

Answer me this:

Developing young talent doesn't always lead to high lotto picks. So what are those teams to do if they need those high picks if they ever hope to reach their goal of a championship?

EDIT: To tie that last point in. In my opinion, next year the Raptors will be highly improved. They won't be vying for a top lotto pick next year. If they don't land a superstar in this weak draft then they're doomed?

Most team wallow in mediocrity. Some, like the Hawks and Jazz, compete while doing it, while others, like Indiana and Charlotte, battle out for a playoff spot every year. To me that's the second worst fate of a franchise. The worst is obviously a team like the Clippers that will never do anything no matter who they draft because they're so badly run.

And to answer your question, if they don't land a superstar this draft, they aren't doomed, but the chance of mediocrity certainly goes up. Still, even if the player is not a superstar, adding one more talented young player puts the team in a better position to improve itself in the future.

[ibzilla]

Listen, Raptor fans need to understand that there are only 2 ways of adding talent to a team. Free agency or Draft. Trading requires giving up something to get something and it's possible you can acquire a good player but it's hard to do (especially when Isiah is out of the league). Now looking at the Raptors from a distance you can tell they still need to add talent and it will never come from free agency (actually possible but not likely) so you can only depend on the draft to add talent. It's not a surefire way to do things, but it's the best way without giving up an asset or large cap room. Now the draft isn't a science either as star players can come from everywhere but it has already been proven that a majority of star players (players with the greatest EWA) get drafted in top 5 and a small percentage get drafted out of the lottery. No one can argue that the Raptors need to add talent and it's obvious it will not come through free agency so depend on management to do a good job scouting and drafting players and perhaps we can have a solid team in the near future. Had this happened season happened last year for example we could have had John Wall or Demarcus Cousins to build around. I'm not saying they should have tanked last year but it's an example of what could happen in the future if you wish to go for that final 8 seed waiting to get swept by Boston or Miami. Kyrie Irving/Perry Jones or Nolan Smith?

[Raptor4Ever]

The rest of your post which is constant Bargnani hating wihtout any logic and defend of BC's moves is not worth even replying.

I stand by what I said: This team did not make any significant improvement in its weaknesses and also in its player developement. If they did, they would not have worst record and would be in better place now.

End of Story.

[JoePanini]

No one can compare to the Spurs. After getting Duncan, nearly each pick they had has brought them good and efficient players.

James Anderson, DeJuan Blair, Nando De Colo (hasn't played in the NBA but is a rising star in Europe), George Hill, Goran Dragic, Tiago Splitter, Beno Udrih, Leandro Barbosa, John Salmons, Luis Scola, Tony Parker, Many Ginobili. Out of all these picks, the highest was Anderson, who was picked 20th. All these players have become at least decent (De Colo is a star in Europe, so lets assume he'll be decent in the NBA, he was drafted in 09) and were all picked very late in the draft. I don't know how they do it, but they are the kings of the draft.

p.s I know some of the players were immediately traded, but it still shows how their draft picks have become pretty good.

[charlz]

Did you say shutdown Peja?

well yeah he was able to play the whole time but they shut him down with no intent to let him play no matter how depleted they were

[Multipaul]

well yeah he was able to play the whole time but they shut him down with no intent to let him play no matter how depleted they were

yeah i believe that too actually. they were just keepin him on the shelf until the trade. i have a sneaking suspicion they may be doing that a bit with weems too.

[MangoKid]

yeah i believe that too actually. they were just keepin him on the shelf until the trade. i have a sneaking suspicion they may be doing that a bit with weems too.

So what's your take on Peja having not played a single game since the Mavs picked him up? He signed on Monday...

[MangoKid]

LOOOL ,Peja had a $14 million dollar contract. How much do you think his buyout was ?? half million with a box of Candy !!!

Usually a lump sum buyout is less expensive than a tenure of a contract, so the Raptors could have just kept Peja for the duration of the season, and paid out 14-15 million, but instead they paid less than that and saved money. Money was going to be paid to Peja in any case. The Raptors saved money, so I fail to see how it's Peja + 10 million, because it's not.

[Multipaul]

So what's your take on Peja having not played a single game since the Mavs picked him up? He signed on Monday...

As per Peja's interview in Dallas, he said his knee is fine but he is not in game shape because he did not play for so long.

[MangoKid]

As per Peja's interview in Dallas, he said his knee is fine but he is not in game shape because he did not play for so long.

Stojakovic, 33, is with his third team this season and is preparing to play in just his ninth game of the year because of a lingering knee issue.

"We're going to go day to day with him," Carlisle said. "He's making gradual progress. He's doing a little more each day. Is he going to play tomorrow? It's very doubtful."

Carlisle said the team is encouraged with the left knee that's caused him irritation and has kept him out of action since Nov. 26.

"We want to make sure there's no flare-up with the knee issue.

LINK

I would think that if his knee was fine, he would have played already, but they're being cautious with him. So yeah, he did have a lingering knee problem. He also only worked in half court sets in practice.

[Apollo]

Really? Come on...

I just cleaned up the last two pages. Seems like I've been giving out a lot of written warnings about personal attacks and abusive comments lately. The warnings aren't working so I'm going to say one more thing, please show some respect to each other or I'll be forced to take it up a notch... Thank you.