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Thread: Feelings About The Playoffs And Tanking

  1. #21
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Good point Joey. The two first rounders, along with the TPE will still be on the table on draft night. They will have the resources to move up the board.

    Winning now with the young guys running the show would had a lot of credibility to a team who may have cap space to spend on free agents. On the other hand, if it doesn't happen and they land a nice pick I would be beating them up for it.

  2. #22
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    The short answer: Pissed.

    The long answer: I'd say that I'm a fan of the Franchise, not necessarily this year's Team; so, while it's great to watch the young guys develop and try to win 40 or so games and make the 7/8 seed, I still really think that to be a top-tier franchise you need top tier talent from high in the draft.
    People say that high lotto picks aren't guaranteed superstars, but without that high pick, you don't even get the chance to find out what they can be in this league.
    2 playoff home games isn't worth risking the next 3-6 years of the franchise for, IMO.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    I asked the question and didnt give my O. dumbass.

    Id be happy. Like i always say, this team needs to win and win now, not later. the playoffs is the playoffs, 1 or 8 it doesnt matter. getting to the playoffs is what teams initially strive for, after playoffs then finals. before, i always wondered whats the big deal with the playoffs, its just the same as a regular season game, but ive come to realize that in the playoffs, teams play tougher, refs tend to let them play more, and the atmosphere is just booming. if our young guys can experience that atmosphere at this early stages in their careers, i think that would be really great for their development. mind you, the best in the NBA right now had their playoff experiences very early in their careers (kobe, dwight, duncan, wade, LBJ). getting that feather on their cap for sure will give them confidence and swagger.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Happy. The high draft pick would be great but no true fan could say they'd be mad about their team in the playoffs. I actually think the season will play out in classic Raptors fashion. That being, they play their selves out of the playoffs in the first half of the season and then they play their selves out of a high lotto pick in the second half of the season... Such a scenario would annoy me.
    hence the term "mediocre forever".
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    There are many who don't believe this team is on the right track with the personnel they have at the moment. To too much losing and too many ? to say with any certainty. To make it to the playoffs they probably have to play over .500 the rest of the way and that looks a little improbable considering the losing streak they're on.
    However if they started to play consistently better as a team and could pull it off it would help in a lot of ways including making Toronto look better as a rising young team to a FA they may have their sights on.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    High lotto picks aren't guaranteed superstars. So essentially you guys, the ones who would be mad to see them make the playoffs, are rooting against the Toronto Raptors this season? Interesting concept...

    I personally feel that the y should be focused on developing the young guys by giving them lots of game time experience. If those kids bring it enough to make it to the show then I'm going to be excited for them.
    hit the nail right on the head. i think its hilarious that people are saying i hope the raps lose so we can get a top 3 pick, when infact, like you said, a top pick doesnt always guarantee a stud. if we do get a top pick and turns out to be a dud, everybody's going to start bitching again, how we should lose again to get another high pick blah blah blah. but if we make the playoffs, we get additional profit for home games, more sponsors, respect from other teams and refs, players might start to realize that hey, coming to toronto aint that bad....if one thinks getting a high draft pick is better for the future, look at the bigger picture and see how a playoff spot will benefit us more....

  7. #27
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    They're mediocre because they haven't been able to keep stars and lure guys to town for reasonable prices because they can't establish a winning culture. Bosh was a 4th overall pick. Bargnani was a 1st overall pick. They didn't win shit. They couldn't lure guys to town. Why? Because once they stringed together a few winning season they went back into the toilet again. One guy isn't going to getting it done. One guy can help a lot but the Raptors real problem won't be fixed with one guy. History alone should tell us the Raptors aren't going to be successful by resting the future of the franchise on one guy or two guys. I want to see the team roll with the young guys. I want those guys to try as hard as they can. If that leads to a high lotto pick then so be it. I'll be happy to get the new player. If that leads the team to the playoffs then so be it. I'll be happy that they stuck it to Bosh and showed the league that the Raptors organization is now legit. If they land just shy of the playoffs and out of the high lotto I'll be annoyed but accepting of the situation...

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    hit the nail right on the head. i think its hilarious that people are saying i hope the raps lose so we can get a top 3 pick, when infact, like you said, a top pick doesnt always guarantee a stud. if we do get a top pick and turns out to be a dud, everybody's going to start bitching again, how we should lose again to get another high pick blah blah blah. but if we make the playoffs, we get additional profit for home games, more sponsors, respect from other teams and refs, players might start to realize that hey, coming to toronto aint that bad....if one thinks getting a high draft pick is better for the future, look at the bigger picture and see how a playoff spot will benefit us more....
    Exactly and outside the top 3 or 4 the whole thing is going to get dicey. Chances are the Raptors aren't even going to be in the top 3 or 4 if the season continues as is. Making the playoffs with these young guys would be just as valuable to the team as landing the 5th overall choice.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jan 26th, 2011 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I asked the question and didnt give my O. dumbass.

    Id be happy. Like i always say, this team needs to win and win now, not later. the playoffs is the playoffs, 1 or 8 it doesnt matter. getting to the playoffs is what teams initially strive for, after playoffs then finals. before, i always wondered whats the big deal with the playoffs, its just the same as a regular season game, but ive come to realize that in the playoffs, teams play tougher, refs tend to let them play more, and the atmosphere is just booming. if our young guys can experience that atmosphere at this early stages in their careers, i think that would be really great for their development. mind you, the best in the NBA right now had their playoff experiences very early in their careers (kobe, dwight, duncan, wade, LBJ). getting that feather on their cap for sure will give them confidence and swagger.

    You speak of the confidencs it will bring this young team; What if they get Blown Out by the Celtics, Magic or Heat in the first round 4-0? What is that going to do to their pyche?
    Then you've got Davis, Johnson, Bargs, DeDe and Jose all looking around the room at each other, wondering where the help is going to come from.
    That kind of scenario can kill confidence.

  9. #29
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote duncan wrote: View Post
    You speak of the confidencs it will bring this young team; What if they get Blown Out by the Celtics, Magic or Heat in the first round 4-0? What is that going to do to their pyche?
    Then you've got Davis, Johnson, Bargs, DeDe and Jose all looking around the room at each other, wondering where the help is going to come from.
    That's called taking your lumps and if they were strong enough down the stretch to get in why are you so confident it would be a "blowout"? Four straight defeats where they were in the games would still bring credibility and confidence throughout the league and locker room.

    Quote duncan wrote: View Post
    That kind of scenario can kill confidence.
    Making it and losing bad is worse on their confidence then just losing bad and not making it? Really?

    As I mentioned before. They have the assets to move up in the draft. Over $10M in the TPE and 2 first rounders.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jan 26th, 2011 at 10:44 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    There are many who don't believe this team is on the right track with the personnel they have at the moment. To too much losing and too many ? to say with any certainty. To make it to the playoffs they probably have to play over .500 the rest of the way and that looks a little improbable considering the losing streak they're on.
    However if they started to play consistently better as a team and could pull it off it would help in a lot of ways including making Toronto look better as a rising young team to a FA they may have their sights on.
    100% agree. i think one of the reasons why Melo did not want to go to Jersey is because he knows the team, even with him in it, will definitely not contend this year and even the next 2-3 years unless they get another superstar. With the Knicks, they have the pieces to eventually be contenders. If the raps make it to the playoffs, that at least, gives the team merit. Cant remember who said it here but Jennings has more upside than Derozan because Jennings already made it to the playoffs. True.

  11. #31
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    Quote duncan wrote: View Post
    You speak of the confidencs it will bring this young team; What if they get Blown Out by the Celtics, Magic or Heat in the first round 4-0? What is that going to do to their pyche?
    Then you've got Davis, Johnson, Bargs, DeDe and Jose all looking around the room at each other, wondering where the help is going to come from.
    That kind of scenario can kill confidence.
    If you make the playoffs, and get blown out by a much stronger team, that you know is a much better team than you, at least you can look in the mirror and say, i did get blown out, but there's 7 other teams who suck more than me coz they didnt make the playoffs.

    If you dont make the playoffs and finish in the bottom 3, you do get a draft pick but you look up the standings and see there are 12 teams better than you.

    which one is a confidence killer then?

  12. #32
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Dropping 55 on Golden State didn't hurt either.

  13. #33
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    High lotto picks aren't guaranteed superstars. So essentially you guys, the ones who would be mad to see them make the playoffs, are rooting against the Toronto Raptors this season? Interesting concept...

    I personally feel that the y should be focused on developing the young guys by giving them lots of game time experience. If those kids bring it enough to make it to the show then I'm going to be excited for them.
    It depends on what you want for your team. Are you a fan just worried about each game and not worried about long term goals? Then, sure, you're going to be thrilled about making the playoffs. If you're a "big picture fan", though, you're going to see making the playoffs as a step back for the franchise.

    Making the playoffs this year would basically doom the Raptors to mediocrity, and nobody wants that.

    The biggest problem with the Raptors is that simply don't have enough talent. They've got some nice young pieces, but I don't see anyone on the team becoming a top player in the league. And that's what you need to have in order to really contend. If you're happy with the Raptors being an Atlanta, a team that competes and wins 50 games, but won't ever get past the second round, then fine. I'm not.

    The draft obviously isn't a guarantee of anything, but which one has the best chance of massively improving your team: Playoffs or a top 3 pick? Playoffs are going to give your team experience, which is nice. Of course simply making the playoffs don't automatically mean the team will improve. You just have to look back at all the teams that have barely scraped into the playoffs in previous years, and either didn't improve or didn't make them against the next year. The playoffs are only good for a team if it's the first step towards a larger goal. Simply making the playoffs shouldn't be the long term goal.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Cant remember who said it here but Jennings has more upside than Derozan because Jennings already made it to the playoffs. True.
    I'm sorry, but whoever said that is a moron. First off, Jennings didn't make the playoffs. Milwaukee did. Jennings was a big reason why, but an NBA career is not a sprint. It's not about who gets there first. Just because Jennings made more of an immediate impact doesn't make him a better player. Damon Stoudamire won the Rookie of the Year Award in 1996, but I'm pretty sure everyone would say Kevin Garnett had the better career. So did Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess and Michael Finley.

    Jennings is a very good player, but his game is just as flawed as DeRozan's right now. He's a PG who still makes bad decisions. His CAREER field goal percentage is .376, yet that hasn't stopped him from being among the team leaders in field goals attempted per game. Him making the playoffs didn't change any of that. And they are currently 10th in the conference, so woouldn't make the playoffs if it started today. AND they were even lower before Jennings got hurt.
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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If you're a "big picture fan", though, you're going to see making the playoffs as a step back for the franchise.
    I'm not a 'Big Picture Fan' because I want my team to make the Playoffs? Thats a load of horse_hit.
    Making the Playoffs can NEVER be a step backward for a rebuilding team. If the Raptors make the Playoffs, they essentially prove your 'we don't have enough talent' argument, wrong.
    Not only that, it proves it to themselves, that with some minor changes, they can take further steps forward.
    If we make the Playoffs, that shows we don't need a 'saviour' in the draft, and simply now, just need the 'Joe Johnson of Atlanta from 5 years ago' to take us that one step further. We are essentially where Atlanta was before they signed him and Jamal. And Atlanta is now one piece away from being a true Contender. I'd be very happy to be Atlanta right now.

    And if you call yourself a 'Big Picture Fan', but don't see Demar or Ed (or Bargnani) as potential Stars, then you're selling the team short. Plain and simple.

  16. #36
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm sorry, but whoever said that is a moron. First off, Jennings didn't make the playoffs. Milwaukee did. Jennings was a big reason why, but an NBA career is not a sprint. It's not about who gets there first. Just because Jennings made more of an immediate impact doesn't make him a better player. Damon Stoudamire won the Rookie of the Year Award in 1996, but I'm pretty sure everyone would say Kevin Garnett had the better career. So did Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess and Michael Finley.

    Jennings is a very good player, but his game is just as flawed as DeRozan's right now. He's a PG who still makes bad decisions. His CAREER field goal percentage is .376, yet that hasn't stopped him from being among the team leaders in field goals attempted per game. Him making the playoffs didn't change any of that. And they are currently 10th in the conference, so woouldn't make the playoffs if it started today. AND they were even lower before Jennings got hurt.
    All good points.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It depends on what you want for your team. Are you a fan just worried about each game and not worried about long term goals? Then, sure, you're going to be thrilled about making the playoffs. If you're a "big picture fan", though, you're going to see making the playoffs as a step back for the franchise.

    Making the playoffs this year would basically doom the Raptors to mediocrity, and nobody wants that.

    The biggest problem with the Raptors is that simply don't have enough talent. They've got some nice young pieces, but I don't see anyone on the team becoming a top player in the league. And that's what you need to have in order to really contend. If you're happy with the Raptors being an Atlanta, a team that competes and wins 50 games, but won't ever get past the second round, then fine. I'm not.

    The draft obviously isn't a guarantee of anything, but which one has the best chance of massively improving your team: Playoffs or a top 3 pick? Playoffs are going to give your team experience, which is nice. Of course simply making the playoffs don't automatically mean the team will improve. You just have to look back at all the teams that have barely scraped into the playoffs in previous years, and either didn't improve or didn't make them against the next year. The playoffs are only good for a team if it's the first step towards a larger goal. Simply making the playoffs shouldn't be the long term goal.
    I think you as a fan and looking at the big picture is great, you, as a fan, want to acquire players who can potentially contribute to your team in the future. and yes, if the raps dont make the playoffs this year, they can POTENTIALLY get another player in the draft who could be a future superstar. With this team not amounting to anything this year, do you honestly believe that drafting a stud can turn the franchise around in one year? Honestly? Im not saying you said that we should give this team a year to turn around but in all likelihood, it will be at least 2 years before a stud can be a fit in this team. all you guys think of who to get in the draft, etc etc, what about the current players on this team. Mind you, the reason why Bosh left this team, its because they couldnt even make the playoffs. Derozan has already come out and said he hates losing and is sick of the situation. Can you honestly believe that BC can tell Derozan, Bargs, Jose, Amir, Ed, hey boys, stick around, we might have another 2 - 3 losing seasons but hey, there's a rainbow after the rain. Would you, as a player, endure more losing seasons coz there is a "probability" that you the team can draft a talent? yikes.

    I know most will be happy if bargs or jose asks for a trade, but the thing is, you let these guys go, and its rebuilding all over again. if demar bolts, youre all going to hate him for being disloyal, but what you dont get is the guy will not roll over and keep playing for a losing team. just throwing it out there, lebron was drafted in 2003 and the cavs didnt make the playoffs till 2005. and this kid was considered the chosen one.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    My only problem with the "making playoffs = good season" mentality is that in the East it may be possible to make the playoffs with a 7 games under .500 record.

    The playoffs ought to be a goal because making the playoffs means you've got a good team and have a chance to compete for the championship. If by making the playoffs all you've done is prove to yourselves that you're the best among the worst, then that should never be the goal.

    Therefore, I'd want the Raps to make the playoffs if they could do so with a winning record. All making the playoffs do for you if your record is 34-48 is take you out of the lottery. Basically, playoffs with a losing record is not an accomplishment.

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    Happy. Gotta play to win. Plus, playoff experience is good for young players, it hardens them, makes them hungry. Gives them a sight of the "promised land", albeit far away on the horizon.

    Plus, there is no guarantees with the draft. Look at Blake G in his first yr, Oden, etc. We could get the 1st pick and then he is injured for the year. Lets play to win now boys!

  20. #40
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It depends on what you want for your team. Are you a fan just worried about each game and not worried about long term goals? Then, sure, you're going to be thrilled about making the playoffs. If you're a "big picture fan", though, you're going to see making the playoffs as a step back for the franchise.
    What I am is a fan who doesn't believe I need to fit in either one of your designed buckets. What I am is a fan who is concerned with the long term, who has been a fan since day one and who realizes that tanking doesn't solve anything.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Making the playoffs this year would basically doom the Raptors to mediocrity, and nobody wants that.
    No, it doesn't.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The biggest problem with the Raptors is that simply don't have enough talent. They've got some nice young pieces, but I don't see anyone on the team becoming a top player in the league. And that's what you need to have in order to really contend. If you're happy with the Raptors being an Atlanta, a team that competes and wins 50 games, but won't ever get past the second round, then fine. I'm not.
    The Raptors biggest problem is image. There's a reason why the good teams seem to always restock talent. Players want to go there because they have a respect, a proven system based on a good track record. High pick or not, if the Raptors don't establish stability they will never go anywhere. Outside the consensus top picks #5 could be no better than #10 or #15. I trust Colangelo's draft track record and I know where ever they land that he's going to select the guy he and his team feel is the most talented player on the board. Not to mention, for the third time, that they have the assets to trade up. If it makes sense to you to cheer against your team then by all means, proceed.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm sorry, but whoever said that is a moron. First off, Jennings didn't make the playoffs. Milwaukee did.
    Jennings' true FG% is close to 50% this season, that's better than a guy like Deron Williams in his second year...The league wide perception seemed to be they got there because Jennings added the star power they needed to overcome obstacles and had he not been on that team they would not have made it. He seemed like their MVP to me. He was drafted tenth by the way. Seems like talent can be found outside the humiliation of finishing close to dead last in the league.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jan 26th, 2011 at 12:06 PM.

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