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Thread: Feelings About The Playoffs And Tanking

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm sorry, but whoever said that is a moron. First off, Jennings didn't make the playoffs. Milwaukee did. Jennings was a big reason why, but an NBA career is not a sprint. It's not about who gets there first. Just because Jennings made more of an immediate impact doesn't make him a better player. Damon Stoudamire won the Rookie of the Year Award in 1996, but I'm pretty sure everyone would say Kevin Garnett had the better career. So did Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess and Michael Finley.

    Jennings is a very good player, but his game is just as flawed as DeRozan's right now. He's a PG who still makes bad decisions. His CAREER field goal percentage is .376, yet that hasn't stopped him from being among the team leaders in field goals attempted per game. Him making the playoffs didn't change any of that. And they are currently 10th in the conference, so woouldn't make the playoffs if it started today. AND they were even lower before Jennings got hurt.
    But Jennings made the playoffs, period. If Garnett stayed in Minnesota waiting for the next big stud that they couldve gotten in the draft, would we even be talking about him right now? Why do you remember Damon? Its because of the ROY. Will it get him to the Hall? No. But Garnett winning a champioship with Boston, will that get him in the Hall. No doubt. How do you remember Mbenga? As a player? No. You remember him because he earned a ring with the lakers without even lifting a finger. You are right, an NBA career is not a sprint, but when you keep drafting players and developing them, for the other players in the team, the finish line gets farther and farther. You make the playoffs, even with a bad record, its still the playoffs. 7 other teams had worst records than you. that should be encouraging.

    I think putting your future in the hands of a draftee is just bad GM-ing. what would that say to the current players on your team? that you dont think theyre good enough to make it so youre holding out for the draft? ouch.

    A bad team losing and getting a draft pick is one thing, but purposely not doing anything so this team will lose and get a draft pick is just bullshit. New Jersey Nets. take a good whiff.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Jan 26th, 2011 at 11:59 AM.

  2. #42
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    Comfortably Numb..... I would be SHOCKED....followed by a numb feeling I'm sure....

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    What I am is a fan who doesn't believe I need to fit in either one of designed buckets. What I am is a fan who is concerned with the long term, who has been a fan since day one and who realizes that tanking doesn't solve anything.



    No, it doesn't.



    The Raptors biggest problem is image. There's a reason why the good teams seem to always restock talent. Players want to go there because they have a respect, a proven system based on a good track record. High pick or not, if the Raptors don't establish stability they will never go anywhere. Outside the consensus top picks #5 could be no better than #10 or #15. I trust Colangelo's draft track record and I know where ever they land that he's going to select the guy he and his team feel is the most talented player on the board. Not to mention, for the third time, that they have the assets to trade up. If it makes sense to you to cheer against your team then by all means, proceed.



    Jennings' true FG% is close to 50% this season, that's better than a guy like Deron Williams in his second year...The league wide perception seemed to be they got there because Jennings added the star power they needed to overcome obstacles and had he not been on that team they would not have made it. He seemed like their MVP to me. He was drafted tenth by the way. Seems like talent can be found outside the humiliation of finishing close to dead last in the league.
    and Wall was drafted 1st this year. The next Chris Paul/Jason Kidd. Um, looks like the wizards are weeeeellllll on their way to a playoff spot this year.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Yeah and if they can't build a consistent crew around him or he feels like he needs to play in a better system or a bigger spotlight they're left fighting to trade him for more draft picks to select prospects who they eventually, again, may be dealing in the hopes to get picks for new prospects. A destructive cycle only cured by establishing stability with excellent management and leadership who create positive ethical goals, a solid plan to get there and the patience to see it through.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Yeah and if they can't build a consistent crew around him or he feels like he needs to play in a better system or a bigger spotlight they're left fighting to trade him for more draft picks to select prospects who they eventually, again, may be dealing in the hopes to get picks for new prospects. A destructive cycle only cured by establishing stability with excellent management and leadership who create positive, ethical, goals and a plan to get there.
    at least for some of us here, it will be exciting, year after year, we're shaking in our boots anticipating who will be our number one pick! god help us.

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    Apollo wrote that the biggest problem the Raptors have is image. The way the game is called by the refs in this league, having an image problem is huge. Also keeping and attracting great players is again A BIG image problem. If the Raptors had a great image as a destination and it was no problem signing top free agents what would we as fans prefer, a top five pick in the draft or the best free agents available?

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    Raptors Republic Starter knickz's Avatar
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    happy if we make the playoffs..this draft class is weak and will be for years to come

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    To be honest I'm kind of sick of these kind of threads. To tank or not to tank. Who's a true fan, and who isn't. Between this and other boards there have probably been 50 different threads all centered around the draft pick/losing record/playoffs dilemma.

    Clearly it's good for the team to make the playoffs. It's good for the team to feel as if they are good enough as players to compete, rather than acknowledge that they must wait for someone who was in high school last year to turn their own career paths around. Playoffs bring unrivaled experience and confidence. That being said, the second last thing I would want for the Raps is for them to become like Indiana or Charlotte - perpetually on the playoff cusp, never a real threat, mediocore through and through. The last thing I would want is for the Raps to be like the Nets, the Kings, the Clips: perpetually stuck at the bottom of the league, regardless of how many high draft picks they've had. Losing breeds losing, and it's a terrible mentality. Either way, though, the biggest problem is that these are the teams to which the Raps draw the most frequent comparisons. In order for the Raps to become relevant, that has to change.

    Above the playoffs and the draft, it's the mentality of the team and the organization that turns the average team into perpetual contenders. If the mentality and capabilities aren't there, then it doesn't matter how many times a team has made the playoffs or had high lottery picks.
    Last edited by jeff_hostetler; Wed Jan 26th, 2011 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    Apollo wrote that the biggest problem the Raptors have is image. The way the game is called by the refs in this league, having an image problem is huge. Also keeping and attracting great players is again A BIG image problem. If the Raptors had a great image as a destination and it was no problem signing top free agents what would we as fans prefer, a top five pick in the draft or the best free agents available?
    dude, this could be a good thread, wanna start it?

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    and Wall was drafted 1st this year. The next Chris Paul/Jason Kidd. Um, looks like the wizards are weeeeellllll on their way to a playoff spot this year.
    Good point about the Wiz man. Good coach, awesome draft pick, and what does it get them.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Good point about the Wiz man. Good coach, awesome draft pick, and what does it get them.
    Well, to be fair, its only their first year, so they could amount to something down the road, but thats the thing, youd always be saying could, probably, potentially, maybe.

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    To be fair to Wall, Point Guards need another player to dominate with, as their position really precludes them from taking over enough to win consistently. After Wall, the Wizards really have no upper-tier player.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm not a 'Big Picture Fan' because I want my team to make the Playoffs? Thats a load of horse_hit.
    Making the Playoffs can NEVER be a step backward for a rebuilding team. If the Raptors make the Playoffs, they essentially prove your 'we don't have enough talent' argument, wrong.
    Not only that, it proves it to themselves, that with some minor changes, they can take further steps forward.
    If we make the Playoffs, that shows we don't need a 'saviour' in the draft, and simply now, just need the 'Joe Johnson of Atlanta from 5 years ago' to take us that one step further. We are essentially where Atlanta was before they signed him and Jamal. And Atlanta is now one piece away from being a true Contender. I'd be very happy to be Atlanta right now.

    And if you call yourself a 'Big Picture Fan', but don't see Demar or Ed (or Bargnani) as potential Stars, then you're selling the team short. Plain and simple.
    In the East, you could win 35 games and still make the playoffs. In other words, simply making the playoffs in the East doesn't prove ANYTHING. All it does is postpone vacation for the players.

    I'm glad you'd be happy if Toronto was Atlanta, but Atlanta will never be a true contender. If you're happy with that, then we have very little in common, despite cheering for the same team. Atlanta is the perfect example of a successful mediocre team that have littered the NBA throughout history. Teams that never have a chance to actually be a true contender, but are competitive enough that they fool most of their fans.

    And it boggles my mind that anyone who has been following the Raptors for more than five minutes has any illusions about what making the playoffs means. Making the playoffs didn't help turn the Vince Carter teams into a contender. Nor did it help the Chris Bosh teams turn into a contender. Making the playoffs can be fool's gold if the team doesn't have the talent to build on that.

    And I actually do think DeRozan and Davis have a chance to be stars in the league. I've constantly talked about how thrilled I am with their development. I don't see either one being truly elite talent, though. And you need that to be a true contender in the league. Atlanta is the perfect example. If DeRozan gets to the same level as Joe Johnson and Davis gets to the same level as Al Horford, I'd be very happy. Of course, Atlanta also has Josh Smith (another borderline All-Star), Marvin Williams (a good starter) and Mike Bibby, as well as Jamaal Crawford. And they still won't get past the second round of the playoffs. You stick an elite talent on Atlanta and they have a chance to be a true contender. But unless Chris Paul decides to sign for the MLE, I don't see that happening.
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    To be honest I'm kind of sick of these kind of threads. To tank or not to tank. Who's a true fan, and who isn't. Between this and other boards there have probably been 50 different threads all centered around the draft pick/losing record/playoffs dilemma.

    Clearly it's good for the team to make the playoffs. It's good for the team to feel as if they are good enough as players to compete, rather than acknowledge that they must wait for someone who was in high school last year to turn their own career paths around. Playoffs bring unrivaled experience and confidence. That being said, the second last thing I would want for the Raps is for them to become like Indiana or Charlotte - perpetually on the playoff cusp, never a real threat, mediocore through and through. The last thing I would want is for the Raps to be like the Nets, the Kings, the Clips: perpetually stuck at the bottom of the league, regardless of how many high draft picks they've had. Losing breeds losing, and it's a terrible mentality. Either way, though, the biggest problem is that these are the teams to which the Raps draw the most frequent comparisons. In order for the Raps to become relevant, that has to change.

    Above the playoffs and the draft, it's the mentality of the team and the organization that turns the average team into perpetual contenders. If the mentality and capabilities aren't there, then it doesn't matter how many times a team has made the playoffs or had high lottery picks.
    Teams that are perpetually stuck in the lottery are almost always badly managed. I don't think ANYONE wants a badly managed team. If the Clippers roster was on a team with decent management and ownership, they would be the toast of the league and a team with a bright, bright future. On the Clippers, though, there's little hope, even with Blake Griffin destroying the league.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie webcrawler89's Avatar
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    Wow, I'm sorry the level of desperation here is pretty appalling. We WANT our team to tank and get a high draft pick, just so MAYBE down the future, we'll have drafted some superstar who can take us somewhere?

    You know...a few years ago, when I was I think...13, a basketball team in Ohio drafted this local player who everyone considered a phenom. Within 4 years, this kid had practically led them to the finals, was consistently winning, and it seemed everyone in that city was happy. But here's what the intelligent fans in the NBA realized. That team was only winning because of one guy, there was no winning mentality within the organization as a whole. They had literally won the lottery, and were riding the coattails of it. And what happened last summer? Even after this team posted 2 consecutive years of winning the most games, even though they consistently got to the playoffs, it was only because of that one person, that one player that everyone put their "hopes and dreams" on. And what happened? He couldn't handle that pressure by himself, so he left, and now that team is nowhere...dead last, looking for a savior to show up from the draft again, to once again attempt to lead them to the Promised Land.

    My point? Great players shouldn't make teams, because it doesn't last forever. Great teams are the ones that make players, and bring other players in to keep that greatness going. Shaq was done and out since his last year with the Heat, but look at the resurgence he has on a good team in Boston. The system, winningness and tough mentality that team has lets everyone play at a higher level. Yes, Chicago may have gotten lucky drafting Derrick Rose, but they did that in a pretty strong year. Let's face it, outside of the top 5, who else is really going to be in this draft? Hell, even from last year's draft, besides John Wall and Landry Fields, who else really looks like they can be something in the future?

    We have fantastic players in Derozan, Johnson, Davis, Bayless and to a certain extent in Bargnani. We NEED to develop a winning mentality and culture in this city and in this team NOW. It's the only way we can get out of this rut that we've been in pretty much since Vince left (or perhaps, since Vince got injured). That's all I've heard people say since then "we just need another High draft pick like Vince". We HAD BOSH, we got Bargnani, We have Derozan, but were still not there. Superstars only come by once every few years people. This year is definitely not a year to look to the draft. We need to start really hoping this team wins, even if it means sneaking into the playoffs with an under .500 record, because you know what? it's still the playoffs. Joakin Noah was just your average player before the playoffs in the last two years. Now he's an integral part of the Chicago system.

    If we end up getting a top-5 pick this summer, as far as I'm concerned, it's a consolation prize. IF we make it to the playoffs, then there's actual HOPE for the future.

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    Quote webcrawler89 wrote: View Post
    Wow, I'm sorry the level of desperation here is pretty appalling. We WANT our team to tank and get a high draft pick, just so MAYBE down the future, we'll have drafted some superstar who can take us somewhere?

    You know...a few years ago, when I was I think...13, a basketball team in Ohio drafted this local player who everyone considered a phenom. Within 4 years, this kid had practically led them to the finals, was consistently winning, and it seemed everyone in that city was happy. But here's what the intelligent fans in the NBA realized. That team was only winning because of one guy, there was no winning mentality within the organization as a whole. They had literally won the lottery, and were riding the coattails of it. And what happened last summer? Even after this team posted 2 consecutive years of winning the most games, even though they consistently got to the playoffs, it was only because of that one person, that one player that everyone put their "hopes and dreams" on. And what happened? He couldn't handle that pressure by himself, so he left, and now that team is nowhere...dead last, looking for a savior to show up from the draft again, to once again attempt to lead them to the Promised Land.

    My point? Great players shouldn't make teams, because it doesn't last forever. Great teams are the ones that make players, and bring other players in to keep that greatness going. Shaq was done and out since his last year with the Heat, but look at the resurgence he has on a good team in Boston. The system, winningness and tough mentality that team has lets everyone play at a higher level. Yes, Chicago may have gotten lucky drafting Derrick Rose, but they did that in a pretty strong year. Let's face it, outside of the top 5, who else is really going to be in this draft? Hell, even from last year's draft, besides John Wall and Landry Fields, who else really looks like they can be something in the future?

    We have fantastic players in Derozan, Johnson, Davis, Bayless and to a certain extent in Bargnani. We NEED to develop a winning mentality and culture in this city and in this team NOW. It's the only way we can get out of this rut that we've been in pretty much since Vince left (or perhaps, since Vince got injured). That's all I've heard people say since then "we just need another High draft pick like Vince". We HAD BOSH, we got Bargnani, We have Derozan, but were still not there. Superstars only come by once every few years people. This year is definitely not a year to look to the draft. We need to start really hoping this team wins, even if it means sneaking into the playoffs with an under .500 record, because you know what? it's still the playoffs. Joakin Noah was just your average player before the playoffs in the last two years. Now he's an integral part of the Chicago system.

    If we end up getting a top-5 pick this summer, as far as I'm concerned, it's a consolation prize. IF we make it to the playoffs, then there's actual HOPE for the future.
    I just read the last sentence of your diatribe, but totally agree with you. That should be the Rap of the Day.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote webcrawler89 wrote: View Post
    Wow, I'm sorry the level of desperation here is pretty appalling. We WANT our team to tank and get a high draft pick, just so MAYBE down the future, we'll have drafted some superstar who can take us somewhere?

    You know...a few years ago, when I was I think...13, a basketball team in Ohio drafted this local player who everyone considered a phenom. Within 4 years, this kid had practically led them to the finals, was consistently winning, and it seemed everyone in that city was happy. But here's what the intelligent fans in the NBA realized. That team was only winning because of one guy, there was no winning mentality within the organization as a whole. They had literally won the lottery, and were riding the coattails of it. And what happened last summer? Even after this team posted 2 consecutive years of winning the most games, even though they consistently got to the playoffs, it was only because of that one person, that one player that everyone put their "hopes and dreams" on. And what happened? He couldn't handle that pressure by himself, so he left, and now that team is nowhere...dead last, looking for a savior to show up from the draft again, to once again attempt to lead them to the Promised Land.

    My point? Great players shouldn't make teams, because it doesn't last forever. Great teams are the ones that make players, and bring other players in to keep that greatness going. Shaq was done and out since his last year with the Heat, but look at the resurgence he has on a good team in Boston. The system, winningness and tough mentality that team has lets everyone play at a higher level. Yes, Chicago may have gotten lucky drafting Derrick Rose, but they did that in a pretty strong year. Let's face it, outside of the top 5, who else is really going to be in this draft? Hell, even from last year's draft, besides John Wall and Landry Fields, who else really looks like they can be something in the future?

    We have fantastic players in Derozan, Johnson, Davis, Bayless and to a certain extent in Bargnani. We NEED to develop a winning mentality and culture in this city and in this team NOW. It's the only way we can get out of this rut that we've been in pretty much since Vince left (or perhaps, since Vince got injured). That's all I've heard people say since then "we just need another High draft pick like Vince". We HAD BOSH, we got Bargnani, We have Derozan, but were still not there. Superstars only come by once every few years people. This year is definitely not a year to look to the draft. We need to start really hoping this team wins, even if it means sneaking into the playoffs with an under .500 record, because you know what? it's still the playoffs. Joakin Noah was just your average player before the playoffs in the last two years. Now he's an integral part of the Chicago system.

    If we end up getting a top-5 pick this summer, as far as I'm concerned, it's a consolation prize. IF we make it to the playoffs, then there's actual HOPE for the future.
    Solid Post. Couldn't have said it any better myself.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jan 26th, 2011 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Inappropriate.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    In the East, you could win 35 games and still make the playoffs.
    Give me an example of when that's happened because I don't know of one ever.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm glad you'd be happy if Toronto was Atlanta, but Atlanta will never be a true contender. If you're happy with that, then we have very little in common, despite cheering for the same team. Atlanta is the perfect example of a successful mediocre team that have littered the NBA throughout history. Teams that never have a chance to actually be a true contender, but are competitive enough that they fool most of their fans.
    Why don't you tell us how many teams who tanked and got high draft choices won championships in the last 20 years? Where is your evidence that tanking builds long term winners?

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    And it boggles my mind that anyone who has been following the Raptors for more than five minutes has any illusions about what making the playoffs means. Making the playoffs didn't help turn the Vince Carter teams into a contender. Nor did it help the Chris Bosh teams turn into a contender. Making the playoffs can be fool's gold if the team doesn't have the talent to build on that.
    Missing the playoffs helped Vince Carter's and Chris Bosh's teams less. Missing the playoffs caused the Raptors lose both star players and have their name tossed through the mud by media types across North America.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Teams that are perpetually stuck in the lottery are almost always badly managed. I don't think ANYONE wants a badly managed team. If the Clippers roster was on a team with decent management and ownership, they would be the toast of the league and a team with a bright, bright future. On the Clippers, though, there's little hope, even with Blake Griffin destroying the league.
    Most of the league would place the Raptors in Clippers in the same tier. No wonder some media types are already talking about how Blake Grffin will be leaving town first chance he gets. The Clippers are a joke to most, just like the Raptors.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Jan 26th, 2011 at 01:29 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Teams that are perpetually stuck in the lottery are almost always badly managed. I don't think ANYONE wants a badly managed team. If the Clippers roster was on a team with decent management and ownership, they would be the toast of the league and a team with a bright, bright future. On the Clippers, though, there's little hope, even with Blake Griffin destroying the league.
    That's my point. It's not the results season by season, but the continuity and overall gameplan and approach in combination with the results that matters.

    I think the Raps have a pretty good base from which to build. Combine this with a GM such as Colangelo who is not only willing to make the big trade, but is more than capable of pulling it off, and that makes for a promising future. To be honest I didn't think he had a rebuild in him: I thought he'd sacrifice development for a few wins. He hasn't, and I'm fully on board with him taking this team forward.

    It's a delicate balance between getting your young players to develop their skills and maintain within them their competitive spirit. Too much losing can kill that. Too much focus on wins might compromise a young player's ability to play through their mistakes.

    Ultimately it's not where the Raps end up, it's how they got there that's important. Anyone looking at the box scores alone will see a large losing streak. To anyone who'd watched the games though, they would know they could have/should have won games against ATL, NO, MEM, maybe even San Antonio. They're competitive despite their record on most nights. So long as this momentum is carried forward and built upon, I'll be satisfied.

    The only caveat here is that the Raps still need a piece or two. Given how hard it is for TO to attract Free Agents, that major piece is likely going to have to come from the draft. Which I think is where the real underlying issues lie. But even with this year's drafy I think only Irving or P. Jones are the real franchise players, realistically. If the Raps miss the playoffs and those two players, that'd be a double whammy of disappointment. And in all honesty, that's probably the most realistic scenario.

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