They just don't care. I really almost can't watch anymore.

[Tim W.]

I copy this from my earlier post under this thread ( #56) as an answer to your question:

AB like any other basketball player has responsibilities toward rebounding and playing a team defense. But the problem with Raptors and the mess they are in is not ONLY AB. AB is a small part in a big picture of things that some fans keep focusing on ( in your case for personal bias and agenda).

The problem with Raptors is lack of real talents, accountability, a system and philosophy that a team should be build around. Trading AB will not solve any of them.

Now, I will even go one step ahead and say that AB, with all his deficiencies in rebounding and Team defense, can be an integral part of any team, one of deadliest players and most effective players UNDER the right Coaching, System and Team Philosophy.

Why didn't you answer my question in the earlier thread, instead of just bobbing and weaving and trying to change the subject? Not once did you even come close to the answer that you gave above. Not close. Can you understand why I got a little frustrated with you?

And I agree with you completely that trading Bargnani will not solve the major problems of this club, but it's certainly a good first step. Triano needs to be given the permission to hold players more accountable. Colangelo needs to get more players like Ed Davis and stop looking at players like Bargnani, who only help the team on offense. I have seen enough good things from both Triano and Colangelo that I am willing to give them a bit of time to prove they have learned from their mistakes. I've seen enough from Bargnani that I am not willing to wait any longer for him to learn from his mistakes. Players like him never "get it". I've just seen way, way too many of them over the years. I've seen loads of teams try and take chances on guys like Bargnani and it almost always fails to work out.

Would I like to see the Raptor organization completely revamped and have the second coming of RC Buford to take over? Sure. But that's not going to happen. Hell, I'd like to honestly see what I could do in charge of the franchise, but that's not going to happen, either.

Focus enough negative attention on Bargnani, and maybe Colangelo will trade him. That's my hope.

Quite frankly, in the other thread, you came off like Multipaul, who simply tries to try and deflect criticism from Bargnani by bashing other players. You talked about being delusional, but that's what someone like that comes off as. I at least answer questions as clearly as I can.

[Bendit]

Dont be too surprised Raptor fans...if Bargnani keeps playing the way he has been the last couple of weeks (his shot abandoning him and no defensive improvement) alongwith team losses...that he might well be the first Raptor booed at ACC who still plays for the team. There is quite a cross pollination of ticket holders being Leafs fans who have shown no shyness in booing their players. Hope it doesnt happen.

[Joey]

Dont be too surprised Raptor fans...if Bargnani keeps playing the way he has been the last couple of weeks (his shot abandoning him and no defensive improvement) alongwith team losses...that he might well be the first Raptor booed at ACC who still plays for the team. There is quite a cross pollination of ticket holders being Leafs fans who have shown no shyness in booing their players. Hope it doesnt happen.

Good point. I wouldn't want to see it... but its very possible.
But at least using that 'Leaf' logic, we know that even if we are crap, we'll still have some of the most expensive tickets in the league and always have fans willing to pay for em. hahah

[matt]

Where's this quote from?? Amazing.

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/feature...3/22/bargnani/

[Joey]

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/feature...3/22/bargnani/

"Yeah," Bargnani agrees. "More focus. You said it. More focus and don't get lazy."

Incredibly disheartening to hear from your Franchise player. Ugh.

Dude sounds like me way back in the day, having the talk with my mom about how smoking pot is ruining my High School grades! Geezus.

[matt]

Incredibly disheartening to hear from your Franchise player. Ugh.

Dude sounds like me way back in the day, having the talk with my mom about how smoking pot is ruining my High School grades! Geezus.

Yes, yes, that's totally similar situations....

[smushmush]

my sentiments exactly. it's like "oh my god!! i cant believe they're exactly the team i believed they would be at the beginning of the season! i'm shocked and amazed, and downright flabbergasted that my expectations were met! for shame, toronto raptors, for being exactly who i thought you were going to be! FOR SHAME!"

it's like complaining that taco bell gave you the runs

Unfortunately, I am not freaking out because of their record(we knew they would be bad. lol). What I can't take and is frustrating to me as this team's fan is for the team to be last in defense two consecutive years, no era of accountabilty and games where we get punked not even by superstars but scrubs lol.

[smushmush]

Raptor fans, do yourselves a favor and get NBA league pass. This is one of the best NBA seasons so don't ruin your enthusiasm for the game by watching the horrible Raptors play for a lottery pick. You can tune in when 2014 hits cause they might be a .500 team by then assuming Triano and BC are still at the helm.

we can watch NBA teams for free. They show other NBA games on TSN, TSN 2 and TheScore. There is also court surfing on TheScore and you can even see some games online.

[Joey]

Raptor fans, do yourselves a favor and get NBA league pass. This is one of the best NBA seasons so don't ruin your enthusiasm for the game by watching the horrible Raptors play for a lottery pick. You can tune in when 2014 hits cause they might be a .500 team by then assuming Triano and BC are still at the helm.

You speak like you are not one of us ibzilla? Please don't generalize like that.
You make it sound like ALL Raptor fans are completely ignorant to NBA basketball outside of the Toronto Raptors, and thats pretty silly of you.
I happen to catch MANY games, and follow many teams. But thank you for your suggestion. I'm quite happy watching the Raptors... on the nights they actually put forth a solid effort. Which is majority of the time.

If any of my fellow 'Eskimoes' and 'Lumberjacks' haven't heard of NBA League Pass, inquire with ibzilla about its benefits.

[Raptor4Ever]

Why didn't you answer my question in the earlier thread, instead of just bobbing and weaving and trying to change the subject? Not once did you even come close to the answer that you gave above. Not close. Can you understand why I got a little frustrated with you?

Your questions were answered over and over, under other threads and this thread. The problem is that you do not read.
You want to make every single topic on this message board a bashing feast about AB. It is boring and little pathetic.

It reminds of Buddah-Fan and his constant threads about Amir and ...

I mean look at this thread, It is about the team as a whole, not an individual player. It is about an organization and its shortcomings and not about AB's rebounding but some how, you want to shift the focus there !!!

Again, I know you have a personal agenda and bias toward the guy but don't get upset and frustrated if some of us want to discuss other issues than AB.

And I agree with you completely that trading Bargnani will not solve the major problems of this club, but it's certainly a good first step.

Listen to the podcast. The first step is letting go of BC. He is the guy who hired a bad coach and assebled a team of no talents.

I rather fire BC, get a decent GM and then a Coach who keep people accountable. I want to see how AB play under him and how will he play under a system that is dedicated to defense and...

I said this before and I will say this again. AB has ton of talents and is one of the most unique guys offensively in this league but like MANY other players he also has weaknesses.

His weaknesses have not been resolved due to bad Coaching and a bad team philosophy and system in our team BUT I am not willing to give up yet.

He is only 25 years old and we are , thanks to BC, years away from competing and we are in development stage with this team.

I like to see AB here under a new Coach but as a first Step in the right direction like to see BC gone.

Triano needs to be given the permission to hold players more accountable. Colangelo needs to get more players like Ed Davis and stop looking at players like Bargnani, who only help the team on offense.

I agree with that 100%.

I have seen enough good things from both Triano and Colangelo that I am willing to give them a bit of time to prove they have learned from their mistakes.

I have not seen anything from these guys that gives me the confident that either of them is able to turn it around. I am looking at BC's track record in here for last 5 years and even in Phoenix and Triano's work as our GM, his play calling, player management and I see no reason to wait to pull the plug on both of them.

I've seen enough from Bargnani that I am not willing to wait any longer for him to learn from his mistakes. Players like him never "get it". I've just seen way, way too many of them over the years. I've seen loads of teams try and take chances on guys like Bargnani and it almost always fails to work out.

I disagree and I think it is your personal bias that is talking now without logic. If AB was under a coach like Van Gundy, Johnson, Alderman, Pop or Sloan or someone better than Jay then I would have agreed with you.

But a Coach like Jay is not able to help any players.

Focus enough negative attention on Bargnani, and maybe Colangelo will trade him. That's my hope.

You can hope for that but I am willing AB will be here till the day BC is.

Quite frankly, in the other thread, you came off like Multipaul, who simply tries to try and deflect criticism from Bargnani by bashing other players. You talked about being delusional, but that's what someone like that comes off as. I at least answer questions as clearly as I can.

LOL, you know , a AB haters are as delusional as AB lovers last year who thought CB4 was the reason that AB was not getting rebound

They flooded the board and RR with their bashing of CB4 and telling us how great this year will be and ...

This year, the haters of AB are doing the same. It is getting boring and quite unoriginal to take a stab at AB the someway how some Amir Lovers ( Buddah fan) droll about how Amir grab few rebounds in a game and had few put back without really judging the guy's development over the summer and ...

I am a Raptor fan not a Player fan. Players come and go but my team stays the same. I rather talk, focus and direct my energy on the more fundamental issues that help the team in the long run such as getting rid of USELESS GM like BC

Hope that clears things up.

[Tim W.]

Your questions were answered over and over, under other threads and this thread. The problem is that you do not read.
You want to make every single topic on this message board a bashing feast about AB. It is boring and little pathetic.

It reminds of Buddah-Fan and his constant threads about Amir and ...

I mean look at this thread, It is about the team as a whole, not an individual player. It is about an organization and its shortcomings and not about AB's rebounding but some how, you want to shift the focus there !!!

Again, I know you have a personal agenda and bias toward the guy but don't get upset and frustrated if some of us want to discuss other issues than AB.

No, you didn't answer my question. You tried to be glib and somewhat insulting. Believe me, I went back read your comments. Not ONE of them answered the questions. You never ONCE said that blame should be placed on Bargnani. You kept saying that Triano is at fault and Colangelo is at fault, and the way you kept going on about it, it seemed as though you were absolving Bargnani of personal responsibility, which is what I took issue with.

And why do you think I have a personal bias against Bargnani? I've come to his defense on various threads, and I don't think I can make this any more clear...

I HAVE NO PERSONAL FEELINGS TOWARDS BARGNANI

I simply don't feel he can ever be a major part of a winning team. And I feel pretty strongly about it. The fact that everything I've been pretty much saying the whole time everyone is starting to realize should tell you something.

Listen to the podcast. The first step is letting go of BC. He is the guy who hired a bad coach and assebled a team of no talents.

I listened to the podcast. Some of it I agreed with, some of it I didn't.

I rather fire BC, get a decent GM and then a Coach who keep people accountable. I want to see how AB play under him and how will he play under a system that is dedicated to defense and...

I said this before and I will say this again. AB has ton of talents and is one of the most unique guys offensively in this league but like MANY other players he also has weaknesses.

His weaknesses have not been resolved due to bad Coaching and a bad team philosophy and system in our team BUT I am not willing to give up yet.

He is only 25 years old and we are , thanks to BC, years away from competing and we are in development stage with this team.

I like to see AB here under a new Coach but as a first Step in the right direction like to see BC gone.

You know what? I have no problem with you having the opinion that you want Colangelo and Triano fired. It just seems to me that you're a tad hypocritical that you're willing to give Bargnani even MORE time, yet won't do the same for Triano and Colangelo.

And please stop comparing the fact that Bargnani is a complete liability half the time he is on the court to, say, Rondo's inconsistency with his jumper. One doesn't completely hurt the team and is actually pretty easily corrected.

I have not seen anything from these guys that gives me the confident that either of them is able to turn it around. I am looking at BC's track record in here for last 5 years and even in Phoenix and Triano's work as our GM, his play calling, player management and I see no reason to wait to pull the plug on both of them.

Well, I have not seen anything from Bargnani that gives me any confidence whatsoever that he will ever be anything but a one dimensional player whose a liability on defense and on the boards. I look at how Bargnani has not improved in 5 years and how he simply doesn't seem to care at all, and I see no reason to wait and see if another coach will somehow magically transform him into a completely different player. And that's basically what you're hoping will happen. You might as well be hoping that Amir turns into a 20 ppg scorer, because the chance of them both happening are about the same.

I disagree and I think it is your personal bias that is talking now without logic. If AB was under a coach like Van Gundy, Johnson, Alderman, Pop or Sloan or someone better than Jay then I would have agreed with you.

But a Coach like Jay is not able to help any players.

If Bargnani had played under one of those guys, he would never have played enough minutes to do anything. Sam Mitchell tried to stick him on the bench for a very good reason, and it got him fired. He flourished under Triano because Triano knew that his job was riding on allowing Bargnani to play well, and the only way to do that was to ignore the fact that he doesn't play defense or rebound.

And coaches don't make players. Players make themselves. They certainly can be helped along by a good coach, but good players don't need a good coach to understand the fucking basics of basketball for a big man. Any big man who doesn't understand that he needs to play defense and rebound is not going to be helped by a good coach. He's simply not going to play much.

You can hope for that but I am willing AB will be here till the day BC is.

Great. Unfortunately that means absolutely nothing since I'm guessing you have absolutely no connections to Colangelo.

LOL, you know , a AB haters are as delusional as AB lovers last year who thought CB4 was the reason that AB was not getting rebound

They flooded the board and RR with their bashing of CB4 and telling us how great this year will be and ...

This year, the haters of AB are doing the same. It is getting boring and quite unoriginal to take a stab at AB the someway how some Amir Lovers ( Buddah fan) droll about how Amir grab few rebounds in a game and had few put back without really judging the guy's development over the summer and ...

I am a Raptor fan not a Player fan. Players come and go but my team stays the same. I rather talk, focus and direct my energy on the more fundamental issues that help the team in the long run such as getting rid of USELESS GM like BC

Hope that clears things up.

Okay. This is where you start being a bit of a dick. This whole "hater" tag is immature and an attempt to ignore an argument you can't actually figure out a way to argue against. Guys like Multipaul use the hater tag because he can't actually debate properly, so he figures if he throws that tag out there then he thinks he doesn't have to.

I could say you've obviously got a personal bias against Colangelo and are simply delusional if you think Bargnani will be anything but the player he is. But I'm not a douche, so I don't pull shit like that. I, at least, make an attempt to have an intelligent discussion. I'm simply asking you to do the same.

On behalf of the human race,

Tim W.

[Raptor4Ever]

Okay. This is where you start being a bit of a dick. This whole "hater" tag is immature and an attempt to ignore an argument you can't actually figure out a way to argue against. Guys like Multipaul use the hater tag because he can't actually debate properly, so he figures if he throws that tag out there then he thinks he doesn't have to.

Tim W.

LOL, Timmi, you are too full of yourself Pal. What argument ??? What figuring out ?? My friend, when 9 out of your 10 posts in every thread is about AB and ... then you are simly a hater Anyway, I said what I have to say and I am not going to continue this with you since it seems like I hit a nerve

Your stand is clear, you want AB out and I want BC and Jay out and want the philosophy and the culture of this team to change.

The END

[Tim W.]

LOL, Timmi, you are too full of yourself Pal. What argument ??? What figuring out ?? My friend, when 9 out of your 10 posts in every thread is about AB and ... then you are simly a hater Anyway, I said what I have to say and I am not going to continue this with you since it seems like I hit a nerve

Your stand is clear, you want AB out and I want BC and Jay out and want the philosophy and the culture of this team to change.

The END

I can't help but notice that every person that calls me some version of Timmy (which I'm assuming is a childish attempt to belittle me), always throw out the "hater" tag and can't debate without insulting the other person. When you guys get out of high school, you might learn how to behave properly. Until then, I've added you to my ignore list, so I won't have to read your drivel anymore.

[Raptor4Ever]

always throw out the "hater" tag and can't debate without insulting the other person. When you guys get out of high school, .

LOOOL, there is nothing here to debate Timmy. Everyone and their grandmothers knew that AB is not a great rebounder or a great Team defense players for years. Even you Boy BC has admitted that in many occasions.

The point that many of us here make is that in a team that is dedicated to developing rotational players such as Amir Johnson, Bayless, Money Weems, Acinja and ... CAN afford investing more time on this guy to his gigantic talents and potential compare to the other players in this team UNDER the right system and right Coaching and Philosophy.

On the other hand , you think that you have discovered cure for Cancer but talking constantly about AB's deficiencies while ignoring the big Blue elephant in the room. This is not a debatable topic to make every single thread in RR dedicate to

The Only debatable subject here the root cause of your personal bias and hate toward AB and how a seemingly intelligent fan can close his eyes on major fundamental problems with this team and focus on the little issues.


As far as going to your ignore List Don't worry Pal, to be honest with you, I have been ignoring your repeated boring DRIVELS ( your word , not mine) about " HOW BAD AB IS" for months now and tried to reply to you only when you quoted me. You and Buddah-Fan should have your own little blog title :

" Why I hate AB and Love Amir"

But as far as this discussion goes, I think I am done with it as well.

[matt]

LOOOL, there is nothing here to debate Timmy. Everyone and their grandmothers knew that AB is not a great rebounder or a great Team defense players for years. Even you Boy BC has admitted that in many occasions.

The point that many of us here make is that in a team that is dedicated to developing rotational players such as Amir Johnson, Bayless, Money Weems, Acinja and ... CAN afford investing more time on this guy to his gigantic talents and potential compare to the other players in this team UNDER the right system and right Coaching and Philosophy.

On the other hand , you think that you have discovered cure for Cancer but talking constantly about AB's deficiencies while ignoring the big Blue elephant in the room. This is not a debatable topic to make every single thread in RR dedicate to

The Only debatable subject here the root cause of your personal bias and hate toward AB and how a seemingly intelligent fan can close his eyes on major fundamental problems with this team and focus on the little issues.


As far as going to your ignore List Don't worry Pal, to be honest with you, I have been ignoring your repeated boring DRIVELS ( your word , not mine) about " HOW BAD AB IS" for months now and tried to reply to you only when you quoted me. You and Buddah-Fan should have your own little blog title :

" Why I hate AB and Love Amir"

But as far as this discussion goes, I think I am done with it as well.

Gigantic talent and potential? Big overstatement perhaps?

The guy is simply a lazy person. Micheal Jordan never got to the level he was playing at without hardwork, Bargnani's only reason in the NBA is because of his talent, but talent can only take you so far....