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Thread: The Toronto Blue Jays/MLB Thread

  1. #201
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    I like thames and I want to see a full year out of him before i make any complete asesments. but, as of now i don't think he's a 4th outfielder at best. he's got some definite power and the way he started to play in the field at the end of the year impressed me.
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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    howard was completely assanine in the post-season. he fell off worse than cliff lee. you throw that man a curve ball and he strikes out 90% of the time.
    A lot of the Phillies fell off this post-season. However, his post season numbers are in 170 ABs, .260 avg, .360 obp, 8 hrs, 33 rbi's. Extrapolate those numbers over a year's worth and it's a tad below what he hits in the regular season. The guy owns a World Series MVP. So, he has shown that he can perform in the post-season.


    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Incredible power when he connects.So, was adum dunn. move howard to the AL and he'll have as shitty a season as dunn, well not as shitty because that's impossible, but, he'll have a bad season.
    I beg to differ. Howard's numbers are much better than Dunn's. How many times has Dunn finished as a top-10 MVP candidate in the NL? His best showing was top-21. Granted, he played on some bad Reds teams, but if he was on the level of Howard, his numbers would be better. The pitching in the NL is just as good as the pitching in the AL. I don't see Howard's numbers would swan dive because of a switch of leagues.

    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    ryan howard is a poor man's prince fielder. As for the reason why Howard gets all those dingers and 100 rbi's is due to the guys in front of him as was touched on. Sure it's one thing to be able to drive them in.
    How is Ryan Howard a poor man's Prince Fielder when he earns more than him? If Howard wasn't the player he was, he wouldn't drive the runs he does. Give credit where it's due.



    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    he's basically jim thome and as he gets older and his contact diminishes, those power numbers will go down just like thome. You can't play the shift with the bases loaded, a pitcher throws a hittable pitch and howard hits it.
    If Howard is Jim Thome, he should be happy. Thome is a Hall of Famer. Thome for his career was a pull hitter, just like how Howard is. And he was successful.

    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Howard always goes up there with the home run swing, he's never thinking about anything other than swinging his hardest.
    Why wouldn't you go up there and swing your hardest? Or at least be selective? Why swing at a ball if you're not gonna swing your hardest? The Phillies pay him to be a game changer and a masher at the plate, not to be like Ichiro and beat out infield grounders.

  3. #203
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    I like thames and I want to see a full year out of him before i make any complete asesments. but, as of now i don't think he's a 4th outfielder at best. he's got some definite power and the way he started to play in the field at the end of the year impressed me.
    Thames has some pop in his bat and a bit of speed, but he's not as toolsy as Rasmus and he's definitely not in Bautista's league. Let's see how Thames adjusts to his second go-around, but he's someone who the Jays could part with easily if they got a decent deal that would shore up their bullpen. He can ht right handed pitching, but he struggles mightily against lefties. The Jays have 2 guys coming up who project to be much better than Thames in Gose and Marsinick. Thames really isn't the long term solution in the OF. I'd trust Snider more than Thames, and I do hope Snider puts it all together.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I beg to differ. Howard's numbers are much better than Dunn's. How many times has Dunn finished as a top-10 MVP candidate in the NL? His best showing was top-21. Granted, he played on some bad Reds teams, but if he was on the level of Howard, his numbers would be better.
    How many bandwagoners are in the BBWA?

    The point is, MVP votes are highly subjective and shouldn't be used as a standard to compare players with. We've already seen it this year with Justin Verlander and the Michael Young vote.

    Why wouldn't you go up there and swing your hardest? Or at least be selective? Why swing at a ball if you're not gonna swing your hardest? The Phillies pay him to be a game changer and a masher at the plate, not to be like Ichiro and beat out infield grounders.
    I'm sure that if you ask any Philly fan to decide between Howard and Ichiro, the majority will respond "Ichiro".

    If you ever frequent a baseball forum (or even a Philadelphia newspaper site) you would find a lot of Phillies fans who dislike his albatross contract.

    Game changer? Ichiro was way more of a game changer, and he also played on a substantially worse team. Howard's career WAR is 2.89 and he's never averaged above 5.8 (his MVP year).
    Compare that with Ichiro, whose career WAR is 5.13--nearly double Howard's. Also of note is that his WAR has never dipped under 3 in ten consecutive seasons while Howard had under 3 for seven of the eight seasons he's been in the majors.
    Last edited by Prime; Wed Dec 21st, 2011 at 03:08 AM.

  5. #205
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    How many bandwagoners are in the BBWA?

    The point is, MVP votes are highly subjective and shouldn't be used as a standard to compare players with. We've already seen it this year with Justin Verlander and the Michael Young vote.

    I'm sure that if you ask any Philly fan to decide between Howard and Ichiro, the majority will respond "Ichiro".

    If you ever frequent a baseball forum (or even a Philadelphia newspaper site) you would find a lot of Phillies fans who dislike his albatross contract.

    Game changer? Ichiro was way more of a game changer, and he also played on a substantially worse team. Howard's career WAR is 2.89 and he's never averaged above 5.8 (his MVP year).
    Compare that with Ichiro, whose career WAR is 5.13--nearly double Howard's. Also of note is that his WAR has never dipped under 3 in ten consecutive seasons while Howard had under 3 for seven of the eight seasons he's been in the majors.
    Are we REALLY comparing Ichiro to Howard now? Ichiro is a sure-fire HOF player. My comments on Ichiro were based on his strengths. The Mariners expect the guy to hit .300 plus, swipe 40 bases and deliver gold glove defense. They don't pay the guy to mash balls over the wall. That's not his strength. I'm sure every team in the MLB would take Ichiro over their best player, so why all of a sudden are you turning this a "who's a better player - Ichiro or Ryan Howard" debate? That's not the issue at hand.
    Whether you like it or not, Ryan Howard IS a game changer. He's a threat to go deep in every at bat and is one of the most feared hitters in the league.

    As for the contract of his and the fans' displeasure, of course there is going to be displeasure surrounding it. They're Phillies fans, after all. The same Philadelphia fans that boo'ed Santa Claus. They expect Howard to hit 50+ home runs every year. Anything less than that is a failure. Like I said in a previous post, I don't believe any player is worth their contract. Every player in MLB is overpaid. But then again, you'd take Darvish and his peanut contract of 125 over 5 over Howard and his 125 over 5.

    I also believe that Howard is a perennial MVP candidate. If your argument against him being such is :

    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    MVP votes are highly subjective and shouldn't be used as a standard to compare players with. We've already seen it this year with Justin Verlander and the Michael Young vote.
    So Verlander didn't deserve to be MVP this year after the season he had? He had a season for the ages. Couple that with there was no real strong American League batting candidate, and there you have it. What most writers did was they looked at where the Tigers would be without Verlander. That's what made him a top candidate. That's what makes Howard place in the top-10 in MVP voting year in and out. The guys produces. I don't see why you discount it.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Are we REALLY comparing Ichiro to Howard now? Ichiro is a sure-fire HOF player. My comments on Ichiro were based on his strengths. The Mariners expect the guy to hit .300 plus, swipe 40 bases and deliver gold glove defense. They don't pay the guy to mash balls over the wall. That's not his strength. I'm sure every team in the MLB would take Ichiro over their best player, so why all of a sudden are you turning this a "who's a better player - Ichiro or Ryan Howard" debate? That's not the issue at hand.
    1. You brought up the comparison. I was just elaborating further.
    2. In your previous post you suggested that Ichiro was less of a game changer than Howard. That's simply not true, like I said.

    Whether you like it or not, Ryan Howard IS a game changer. He's a threat to go deep in every at bat and is one of the most feared hitters in the league.
    Everyone is a game changer then, by your skewed definition.

    e.g.
    "Whether you like it or not, John Danks IS a game changer. He's a threat to strikeout every batter and is one of the least feared pitchers in the league."

    We can play this game all day.


    As for the contract of his and the fans' displeasure, of course there is going to be displeasure surrounding it. They're Phillies fans, after all. The same Philadelphia fans that boo'ed Santa Claus. They expect Howard to hit 50+ home runs every year. Anything less than that is a failure. Like I said in a previous post, I don't believe any player is worth their contract. Every player in MLB is overpaid. But then again, you'd take Darvish and his peanut contract of 125 over 5 over Howard and his 125 over 5.

    I also believe that Howard is a perennial MVP candidate. If your argument against him being such is :



    So Verlander didn't deserve to be MVP this year after the season he had? He had a season for the ages.
    So did Clayton Kershaw, but I don't see him winning the MVP.

    Also take a look at Zack Greinke in 2009: had the highest WAR in the MLB, struck out more batters in 9 innings than Verlander this year, walked less batters, had a lower ERA, and gave up less runs.

    Yet he still lost to Mauer.

    Couple that with there was no real strong American League batting candidate, and there you have it. What most writers did was they looked at where the Tigers would be without Verlander. That's what made him a top candidate. That's what makes Howard place in the top-10 in MVP voting year in and out. The guys produces. I don't see why you discount it.
    No real strong AL batting candidate? Please.

    The 2008 AL MVP, Dustin Pedroia, hit .326/17/83 with a WAR of 5.2 on a stacked team.

    Last season we had:
    • Miquel Cabrera: .344/30/105, WAR: 7.1
    • Bautista: .302/43/103 with 132 walks (12 of which came from Verlander himself), WAR: 9.1
    • Jacoby Ellsbury: .321/32/105 with 39 steals, WAR: 6.6
    • Pedroia again: .307/21/91 with 26 steals, WAR: 6.8

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    1. You brought up the comparison. I was just elaborating further.
    2. In your previous post you suggested that Ichiro was less of a game changer than Howard. That's simply not true, like I said.
    The comparison I brought up was in regards to strengths of players, not who's more or less of a game changer. That was never my suggestion. That might have been lost. I might have not worded it properly. The point of contention is that the Phillies pay Howard to hit homeruns and drive in runs, because that's his strength. You pay people based on their strengths, not weaknesses. I don't think the Phillies pay Howard to because he's got speed to burn or that he's got great plate discipline like Ichiro. If I didn't make it clear in previous posts, my apologies. I'm making it clear now.


    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    Everyone is a game changer then, by your skewed definition.

    e.g.
    "Whether you like it or not, John Danks IS a game changer. He's a threat to strikeout every batter and is one of the least feared pitchers in the league."

    We can play this game all day.
    If you wanna play that game, you go right ahead and do that, friend. You know exactly what I meant by my comments, and you know what Howard can do, as opposed to a lot of other players in the league. You want to make some thinly veiled jabs, go ahead.


    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    So did Clayton Kershaw, but I don't see him winning the MVP.

    Also take a look at Zack Greinke in 2009: had the highest WAR in the MLB, struck out more batters in 9 innings than Verlander this year, walked less batters, had a lower ERA, and gave up less runs.

    Yet he still lost to Mauer.


    No real strong AL batting candidate? Please.

    The 2008 AL MVP, Dustin Pedroia, hit .326/17/83 with a WAR of 5.2 on a stacked team.

    Last season we had:
    • Miquel Cabrera: .344/30/105, WAR: 7.1
    • Bautista: .302/43/103 with 132 walks (12 of which came from Verlander himself), WAR: 9.1
    • Jacoby Ellsbury: .321/32/105 with 39 steals, WAR: 6.6
    • Pedroia again: .307/21/91 with 26 steals, WAR: 6.8
    Did Kershaw have a great season? Absolutely. He was rewarded with the Cy Young award. He did garner some MVP votes as well. But really, the Dodgers were not a playoff team, far from it. Take Braun off the Brewers and I don't think Milwaukee gets as far as they do. Who was more valuable to the Tigers in the season they just had - Verlander or Miggy? Bautista had another great season, but Toronto wasn't close to securing a playoff spot.
    The numbers that the candidates that you listed had great seasons, but take Verlander off that Tigers team and there's no way the Tigers would have gone as far as they did.
    Grienke in 2009 - he was on a poor Royals team. Hence why he didn't garner as much MVP votes. But you take Mauer off of that Twins team and they don't make it to the playoffs.
    Last edited by MangoKid; Wed Dec 21st, 2011 at 03:26 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    I like thames and I want to see a full year out of him before i make any complete asesments. but, as of now i don't think he's a 4th outfielder at best. he's got some definite power and the way he started to play in the field at the end of the year impressed me.
    Tell me which is Thames and which is Snider (keep in mind, Thames is 25 and Snider is 23):

    MLB Full Season - Player A: OBP: .313 - OPS: .769 - OPS+: 104 HR: 12 AB: 362

    MLB Full Season - Player B: OBP: .304 - OPS: .767 - OPS+: 105 HR: 14 AB: 319

    Also, Thames is a horrendous outfielder. Just awful. He was their worst outfielder defensively last year on a team that included Rajai Davis and Corey Patterson. That's pretty terrible.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Even if the Jays got Darvish, does that fix the hole they have at second base? What about first base? What about DH? What about the bullpen? This team has a lot of issues to address. I mean, you want to be players in the FA market, but you want to make good, smart deals. We JUST got rid of an albatross contract in Wells last January, why are some in such a hurry to add another one?
    I hate this argument. Yes, the Jays ahve serious issues at 1B, DH, LF and in the rotation and 2B is a question mark. But no one is arguing they have to or even can fill all the holes in on off season. None of this precludes them from filling some of the holes. It's why I think they should be after Fielder. He fills your gaping hole at 1B and if you have Lind/EE as your DH then that likely makes the DH position passable. There, you've addressed two issues. Does it make you a contender? No, but it gets you closer.

    I'm not suggesting this is your view but this idea many fans have of waiting for some magical time to spend money on FAs is fantasyland. You'll never, ever have a perfect situation where all your prospects and trades deliver at once and there are the ideal FAs out there that year that all want to play for you. It's a fairy tale. You take what you can get when it is available and this off season was as good a time as any fro Toronto to add some pieces.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I hate this argument. Yes, the Jays ahve serious issues at 1B, DH, LF and in the rotation and 2B is a question mark. But no one is arguing they have to or even can fill all the holes in on off season. None of this precludes them from filling some of the holes. It's why I think they should be after Fielder. He fills your gaping hole at 1B and if you have Lind/EE as your DH then that likely makes the DH position passable. There, you've addressed two issues. Does it make you a contender? No, but it gets you closer.

    I'm not suggesting this is your view but this idea many fans have of waiting for some magical time to spend money on FAs is fantasyland. You'll never, ever have a perfect situation where all your prospects and trades deliver at once and there are the ideal FAs out there that year that all want to play for you. It's a fairy tale. You take what you can get when it is available and this off season was as good a time as any fro Toronto to add some pieces.
    There's no way they fill those needs - at least not this winter, and if they do, it'll be by patchwork. Johnson is already in place for this season. I don't believe he'll be back next season. The bullpen needs work. A starter that logs 200+ innings in a must. I don't think Gonzalez is that answer - at least not when Billy Beane is asking for 4 top shelf prospects. I think Anthopolous has some guys in mind, but under the radar guys. I agree with you re: Fielder. They were gonna spend 125+ mil plus on Darvish, so why not spend it on Fielder? He's still young, proven to be durable and him batting back to back with Bautista would be deadly.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Did Kershaw have a great season? Absolutely. He was rewarded with the Cy Young award. He did garner some MVP votes as well. But really, the Dodgers were not a playoff team, far from it. Take Braun off the Brewers and I don't think Milwaukee gets as far as they do. Who was more valuable to the Tigers in the season they just had - Verlander or Miggy? Bautista had another great season, but Toronto wasn't close to securing a playoff spot.
    Exactly, thanks for reiterating my point. BBWA is obviously biased in favour of playoff teams.

    Where would the Dodgers be without Kershaw? No where, that's for sure. The argument still stands.

    The numbers that the candidates that you listed had great seasons, but take Verlander off that Tigers team and there's no way the Tigers would have gone as far as they did.
    Grienke in 2009 - he was on a poor Royals team. Hence why he didn't garner as much MVP votes. But you take Mauer off of that Twins team and they don't make it to the playoffs.
    Ok, let's see. If we replaced Verlander with a replacement level player, would they still make the playoffs? The net effect is ~ -9 wins.
    So yes, they just need 81 wins in their joke of a division.

    Of course, they'd still lose in the postseason so really, replacing Verlander doesn't really change anything.
    Last edited by Prime; Wed Dec 21st, 2011 at 05:01 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    If you wanna play that game, you go right ahead and do that, friend. You know exactly what I meant by my comments, and you know what Howard can do, as opposed to a lot of other players in the league. You want to make some thinly veiled jabs, go ahead.
    I apologize for the disparaging remark, but the point is: a game changer by your definition would mean that anyone with a WAR above 2.7 is a game changer. There are 82 players in the MLB that fit this criteria according to Baseball-Reference. The MLB has around 750-1200 players depending on the definition of active roster you would like to use. So, by your defintion, game changers make up roughly 7%-11% of the entire league. Does that seem right to you?

    (NOTE: All of these players also have a lower strikeout total than Howard. )

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MangoKid;106286]A lot of the Phillies fell off this post-season. However, his post season numbers are in 170 ABs, .260 avg, .360 obp, 8 hrs, 33 rbi's. Extrapolate those numbers over a year's worth and it's a tad below what he hits in the regular season. The guy owns a World Series MVP. So, he has shown that he can perform in the post-season.

    [QUOTE]

    please correct me if i'm wrong but the phillies have only won one world series since howard was with the team and that was in 2008 which cole hamels was the world series mvp.
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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post

    please correct me if i'm wrong but the phillies have only won one world series since howard was with the team and that was in 2008 which cole hamels was the world series mvp.
    My bad. You're right. Hamels was the WS MVP. But Howard had a very good series - 3 homers, 6 rbi's and an ops well over 1.000.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Thames has some pop in his bat and a bit of speed, but he's not as toolsy as Rasmus and he's definitely not in Bautista's league. Let's see how Thames adjusts to his second go-around, but he's someone who the Jays could part with easily if they got a decent deal that would shore up their bullpen. He can ht right handed pitching, but he struggles mightily against lefties. The Jays have 2 guys coming up who project to be much better than Thames in Gose and Marsinick. Thames really isn't the long term solution in the OF. I'd trust Snider more than Thames, and I do hope Snider puts it all together.
    i'm sorry I didn't realize you follow his career since he was 12 years old. you saw half a year out of him and your actng as if he's had as many tries as snider has and you know all about him.

    here's one thing you can't deny thames got called up and didn't get sent back, snider did. yet, you still favour snider. Because why he's a year younger?

    he had a better year than rasmus just with the jays st. lou not included and bautista is arguably the best player in baseball, he's up their with guys like pujols, kemp, braun, etc.

    not many guys are in that league. plus, if the jays had acquired bautista any earlier than they did everyone would of had no problem trading him because of how shit he was. it took him until he was 30 to make something out of himself and we're lucky it wasn't with a different team.

    rasmus is also a five tool player which is also not common and unfair to ascess with not even a full year player.

    just ludicrous comments.

    not to mention you wrote everything twice.
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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    i'm sorry I didn't realize you follow his career since he was 12 years old. you saw half a year out of him and your actng as if he's had as many tries as snider has and you know all about him.

    here's one thing you can't deny thames got called up and didn't get sent back, snider did. yet, you still favour snider. Because why he's a year younger?

    he had a better year than rasmus just with the jays st. lou not included and bautista is arguably the best player in baseball, he's up their with guys like pujols, kemp, braun, etc.

    not many guys are in that league. plus, if the jays had acquired bautista any earlier than they did everyone would of had no problem trading him because of how shit he was. it took him until he was 30 to make something out of himself and we're lucky it wasn't with a different team.

    rasmus is also a five tool player which is also not common and unfair to ascess with not even a full year player.

    just ludicrous comments.

    not to mention you wrote everything twice.
    Clean up your post a bit and I'll respond to it.

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    Default False Identity

    Cleveland Indians starting pitcher Fausto Carmona has been arrested in Dominican Republic for falsifying his identity, according to multiple sources.

    Carmona was reportedly arrested outside of the consulate while trying to get a work visa. According to ESPN Desportes, Carmona's real name is Roberto Hernandez Heredia. The undrafted pitcher is also not 28-years-old as listed in the MLB, but rather 31-years-old, according to Dionisio Soldevila.

    Carmona pitched his way to a 7-15 record in 32 starts, with a 5.25 ERA and 1.40 WHIP in 2011 with the Indians. The Indians picked up Carmona's $7 million option for 2012, despite the faltering numbers. It is unclear at this time whether, or not, Carmona will be legally eligible to play at the start of the 2012 season.
    http://www.thescore.com/mlb/articles...fying-identity
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    Raptors Republic Starter Ryan_1523's Avatar
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    Does anyone even know who's interested in Fielder...? I'm annoyed how people are saying Washington are in it. A guy on mlb.com wrote an article about how there's a 99% chance Washington can't afford him and I'm pretty sure their GM even said they aren't going to go after him.. Cubs are out, Rangers are out, Mariners can't afford him.. So who exactly is going after him? Those were the main suitors all summer.

    I think it'd be a good move by the Jays to pick him up, they can probably get him for 5 years and a couple club options, there's no way anyone will give him a 10 year deal. I know it's extremely unlikely but I'm pretty confident that with him in our lineup then our pitchers would be good enough to beat anyone with all of our run support. I'm kinda just sick of all of our teams sucking and having to hope for a miracle eveeeery year because we don't go after any big free agents ever.. I think it'd create a lot of buzz in Toronto and definitely increase sales, it'd pretty much pay for itself. We just need some excitement in Toronto.. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but when Anthopoulos came in wasn't that what he was all about? Competing by 2012? I can't find anything stating that, but I really don't believe I'm just making it up.. Now he's kinda going against that.

    Fact of the matter is, if (insert any starting pitching but Romero here, plus Rasmus, plus Lind, plus Kelly Johnson, plus Snider, plus Rajai Davis) isn't more consistent, then we'll be worse than we were last year, regardless of whether or not our bullpen is slightly better.

  19. #219
    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    We're still interested in Fielder.

    Beeston has said that they'd be willing to spend for the right price.

  20. #220
    Raptors Republic Starter Ryan_1523's Avatar
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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    We're still interested in Fielder.

    Beeston has said that they'd be willing to spend for the right price.
    When your agent is Scott Boras, there's no chance it will be the "right price" for the Jays.. So don't count on it. Anthopoulos already said there weren't going to be any more big moves as well, so I'd say the Jays have about a 1% chance of signing him.

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