Chisholm: Three young players the Raptors should trade for ...

[karim_nasir]

Thanks for the laugh. And I agree about the BC statements, but comparing him with Brown makes no sense.

haha just pointing out that it iz absolutely insane for someone who is a chronic bc supporter to accuse someone like Larry brown of being selfish and manipulate -

being selfish is being dead last in defense 2 years in a row but not trading the player who is the major reason for this because you drafted him 1st overall and it would hurt YOUR ego too much to have to admit that you made a mistake

[smushmush]

haha just pointing out that it iz absolutely insane for someone who is a chronic bc supporter to accuse someone like Larry brown of being selfish and manipulate -

being selfish is being dead last in defense 2 years in a row but not trading the player who is the major reason for this because you drafted him 1st overall and it would hurt YOUR ego too much to have to admit that you made a mistake

A huge +1 karim. You just got a friend on the Raptors Republic forum . The Italians in the Raps organization are running it like a mafia(The Untouchables).

[Matt52]

haha, what about forcing the coach to play bargs so many minutes even though we all know EVERY other coach in the league would have at least benched bargs for a quarter or two by now.

triano is probably just scared if he does bench bargnani then he will suffer the same fate as sam mitchell.

that's not manipulative right matt52 ? hahah

You obviously have not done the homework on Larry Brown in DET, NY, or CHA.

At no point have I brought up BC. Much like Bargnani discussions, I don't really care anymore. They have been beat to death. The time is running out for both. Another season - tops - without much noticeable improvement will seal both their fates. The team is being built through the draft and young talent and those expecting results over night are going to be extremely disappointed. Building around Bosh was doomed from the beginning. 8 months into a rebuild and improvement in the building blocks are noticeable. There are many threads on this discussion.

Also, your use of manipulative is in the wrong context.

Finally, I personally find your comments immature and adding little to discussion. By the comments I am guessing grade 8, 9 or, at most, 10. Make sure when you are stating things you use things like, "I think..." or "It is my opinion..." or ".... in my opinion."

[joey_hesketh]

being selfish is being dead last in defense 2 years in a row but not trading the player who is the major reason for this because you drafted him 1st overall and it would hurt YOUR ego too much to have to admit that you made a mistake

Making ALOT of assumption's here.
Not to mention we are not "dead last in defense" this year or last year.
I know people like to say we have been to make it seem so much worse, but in actual fact, we are not.
Close... but not. So I'm not sure that point is relevant, as what are the other teams excuses, if they don't have Bargs or BC?

[MangoKid]

If the Knicks had to shell out in excess of over 10 mil a season to get Brown to coach them, I think it'll cost roughly the same for MLSE to secure his services. Brown doesn't really mesh well with young teams. He's more comfortable with veteran teams. He doesn't have time to teach and for mistakes. IMO, if we were replace Jay, we'd need someone who's just as much as a teacher as a coach.

[karim_nasir]

You obviously have not done the homework on Larry Brown in DET, NY, or CHA.

At no point have I brought up BC. Much like Bargnani discussions, I don't really care anymore. They have been beat to death. The time is running out for both. Another season - tops - without much noticeable improvement will seal both their fates. The team is being built through the draft and young talent and those expecting results over night are going to be extremely disappointed. Building around Bosh was doomed from the beginning. 8 months into a rebuild and improvement in the building blocks are noticeable. There are many threads on this discussion.

Also, your use of manipulative is in the wrong context.

Finally, I personally find your comments immature and adding little to discussion. By the comments I am guessing grade 8, 9 or, at most, 10. Make sure when you are stating things you use things like, "I think..." or "It is my opinion..." or ".... in my opinion."

you called someone selfish and manipulative and i disagreed with you.

you dont have to call people immature just because they disagree with you.

i was showing you the hypocrisy in your thinking because in one sense you attack Larry Brown because you think he is selfish and manipulative, when the real selfish and manipulative person is BC, who you chronically defend and support.

and when you called LB selfish or manipulative, did you use the words "I think", or "in my opinion" ?? no, yet you tell me to when i say BC is selfish and then provide examples of it... not surprised more hypocrisy from you, matt52...

btw, go check out how many coaches joe dumars went through in the last 10 years.

[karim_nasir]

Making ALOT of assumption's here.
Not to mention we are not "dead last in defense" this year or last year.
I know people like to say we have been to make it seem so much worse, but in actual fact, we are not.
Close... but not. So I'm not sure that point is relevant, as what are the other teams excuses, if they don't have Bargs or BC?

opponent shooting % - raptors = dead last...yup thats worse than cleveland, worse than the clippers, warriors, and even the nets.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/by..._2010&sort=329

[joey_hesketh]

opponent shooting % - raptors = dead last...yup thats worse than cleveland, worse than the clippers, warriors, and even the nets.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/by..._2010&sort=329

Oh ok, well I guess it depends in which catergory you are going by. I was going by the NBA ranking of Defensive Efficiency. But thats fair enough as well.

[Matt52]

However, Matt52 that is an anomaly - you are not going to see a team of no superstars win a championship in this league(especially in this league of Big 3s a la Miami and the Celtics), talent matters and wins lol.

Totally agree but it goes to show you can win around a team - albeit very rarely. They were also extremely competitive for years afterwards making it to the conference finals a number of years in a row. Obviously when Billups was traded and Big Ben left to sign massive deal with Chicago that was the end of it all.

The only way the Raps get superstars is through the draft, start winning, and maybe others show up via free agency or trade. But the reality is even a team with a superstar (Cleveland for example) doesn't always win and a team with a trio of stars (Boston) has still only won once in 3 years.

I'm not advocating the Piston formula is better than any other way to build a team. Looking at where the Raptors are now combined with location and losing for years, this is the approach I think that will yield the most success. Maybe once a foundation of competitive seasons is laid, the superstars might come. That is a long way from becoming a possibility, of course.

[Matt52]

you called someone selfish and manipulative and i disagreed with you.

you dont have to call people immature just because they disagree with you.

i was showing you the hypocrisy in your thinking because in one sense you attack Larry Brown because you think he is selfish and manipulative, when the real selfish and manipulative person is BC, who you chronically defend and support.

and when you called LB selfish or manipulative, did you use the words "I think", or "in my opinion" ?? no, yet you tell me to when i say BC is selfish and then provide examples of it... not surprised more hypocrisy from you, matt52...

btw, go check out how many coaches joe dumars went through in the last 10 years.

I believe this is the quote you are referring to:

"Brown as a person and developer of young talent is what I am questioning. He is manipulative and selfish and has proven it time and again in recent years with his exits in DET, NY, and CHA."

You are correct. I left out my opinion in the second sentence. Apologies for that. One could state that "... what I am questioning." implies opinion but I did not directly state it.

I'm aware of Dumars' hiring of coaches history. One could also blame that on the players if one goes back and reads the articles from those Pistons years.

With regards to BC, you brought him up and I really have nothing to add to comments about him.

Back to Larry Brown, his history in his last 3 stops is where I base my opinion. Three different teams with three similar outcomes. I do not question his merits as a coach. Obviously we have a difference of opinion, so be it.

BTW - Your comments and personal attacks on my posts are very familiar. I hope things are still going well for you.

[karim_nasir]

I believe this is the quote you are referring to:

"Brown as a person and developer of young talent is what I am questioning. He is manipulative and selfish and has proven it time and again in recent years with his exits in DET, NY, and CHA."

You are correct. I left out my opinion in the second sentence. Apologies for that. One could state that "... what I am questioning." implies opinion but I did not directly state it.

I'm aware of Dumars' hiring of coaches history. One could also blame that on the players if one goes back and reads the articles from those Pistons years.

With regards to BC, you brought him up and I really have nothing to add to comments about him.

Back to Larry Brown, his history in his last 3 stops is where I base my opinion. Three different teams with three similar outcomes. I do not question his merits as a coach. Obviously we have a difference of opinion, so be it.

BTW - Your comments and personal attacks on my posts are very familiar. I hope things are still going well for you.

ok, unless you just started watching ball, you would know that dumars fired coaches even though his team of no superstars made it to the conference finals.

so i dont know where you get off saying "one can blame the players for that." but i guess you probably read that in some internet article so now it must be fact.

btw, i didnt attack you personaly, i questioned your accusations of LB, and provided some examples of inconsistent judgement on your part. i dont know you, there's no reason to make this personal.

YOU are the one who said i must be in grade 8,9, or 10 (you sure im not in grade 11), so to close this discussion, you said i attacked you, when in fact YOU are the one who made degrading comments towards me... MORE HYPOCRISY MATT52... will it ever end ?

[smushmush]

Making ALOT of assumption's here.
Not to mention we are not "dead last in defense" this year or last year.
I know people like to say we have been to make it seem so much worse, but in actual fact, we are not.
Close... but not. So I'm not sure that point is relevant, as what are the other teams excuses, if they don't have Bargs or BC?

Hey, Joey what is the difference between dead last and second to dead last on defense in the past two years(even extending it to the bottom 5 on defense) - both teams defense is atrocious and should not be condoned in my opinion.

[joey_hesketh]

Hey, Joey what is the difference between dead last and second to dead last on defense in the past two years(even extending it to the bottom 5 on defense) - both teams defense is atrocious and should not be condoned in my opinion.

Whats the difference between last and second last? Well.. you just sorta pointed it out. I said we were close to last.
But being close to last, and dead last are different things. Minor technicality, but it comforts me knowing we're not the absolute worst, ok? :P hahah

[JoePanini]

I really dislike Flynn. Not the PG I'd like to build around. And although Bradley is known for defense, he is extremely undersized and is not a distributor. Mayo is the only guy I would go for, but I don't think we have a trade for him that would please both teams.

[karim_nasir]

Whats the difference between last and second last? Well.. you just sorta pointed it out. I said we were close to last.
But being close to last, and dead last are different things. Minor technicality, but it comforts me knowing we're not the absolute worst, ok? :P hahah

but in opponents fg% which some consider way more important than ppg against, we are DEAD LAST.

you mite want to check the points against per 100 possessions this year and last...

[smushmush]

I really dislike Flynn. Not the PG I'd like to build around. And although Bradley is known for defense, he is extremely undersized and is not a distributor. Mayo is the only guy I would go for, but I don't think we have a trade for him that would please both teams.

and PGs that have been built around like Chris Paul and Deron Williams have won championships huh? What is your point again? Most champiosnhip teams and some playoffs teams have had a decent PG due to give you 7 assists a night and clutch plays in the 4th quarter a la Jeff Fisher or Andre Miller - I will take that. We dont need an elite talent at the PG spot lol - I will keep on reteirating that(which is why I am still on the Jonny Flynn side because he is playing a difficult Triangle system under Kurt Rambis, needs a change of scenery badly and Rubio keeps breathing down his neck all the way from Europe lmao(I am sure you too would find it hard to work your daily job when someone is breathing down your neck as a replacement and management is making it obvious lol) and I feel he is a low risk reward - does not pan out, dont renew rookie contract as simple as that lol).

[Matt52]

ok, unless you just started watching ball, you would know that dumars fired coaches even though his team of no superstars made it to the conference finals.

so i dont know where you get off saying "one can blame the players for that." but i guess you probably read that in some internet article so now it must be fact.

btw, i didnt attack you personaly, i questioned your accusations of LB, and provided some examples of inconsistent judgement on your part. i dont know you, there's no reason to make this personal.

YOU are the one who said i must be in grade 8,9, or 10 (you sure im not in grade 11), so to close this discussion, you said i attacked you, when in fact YOU are the one who made degrading comments towards me... MORE HYPOCRISY MATT52... will it ever end ?

Once again, as in previous discussion with different handles, you are skirting around the issues and never acknowledging prior topics. At every point throughout this discussion I've told you to go back and look at news articles (not just internet articles) of the topic at hand. When one does that it is clear his exits in Detroit, NY, and CHA show characteristics that, it is in my opinion, are evident.

Instead, BC is brought up which has no relevance on this discussion.

There is a difference of opinions which I've acknowledged and clarified obvious ambiguity on my part with a comment. I've tried to keep the conversation discussing LB but as usual the topic at hand is avoided and rather than discuss the original intent, all sorts of other issues are dragged in which cloud the original subject.

It was my assumption based on these types of conversations that I questioned your age. Rational adults do not converse in this manner. I'm going to leave it at agree to disagree. Best of luck to you.

[JoePanini]

and PGs that have been built around like Chris Paul and Deron Williams have won championships huh? What is your point again? Most champiosnhip teams and some playoffs teams have had a decent PG due to give you 7 assists a night and clutch plays in the 4th quarter a la Jeff Fisher or Andre Miller - I will take that. We dont need an elite talent at the PG spot lol - I will keep on reteirating that(which is why I am still on the Jonny Flynn side because he is playing a difficult Triangle system under Kurt Rambis, needs a change of scenery badly and Rubio keeps breathing down his neck all the way from Europe lmao(I am sure you too would find it hard to work your daily job when someone is breathing down your neck as a replacement and management is making it obvious lol) and I feel he is a low risk reward - does not pan out, dont renew rookie contract as simple as that lol).

Well, Flynn had one of the worst defensive rating for a PG. He turns the ball over a lot, isn't a very good ball distributor, is more of a shooting PG. We should have kept Jack at this point. Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Avery Johnson, should I go on?? Having a good PG is vital for a team. Maybe their stats aren't great. But they will find the open man and will defend well. And most playoff teams have good PGs. Teams which don't have decent PGs struggle: Raptors, Cavaliers, Bobcats, Timberwolves etc... Of course, some teams don't need a good point guard, just a decent one. Like Cleveland before LeBron leaving, but teams with 'decent' point guards always have a superstar and other good players to support him.

[karim_nasir]

Once again, as in previous discussion with different handles, you are skirting around the issues and never acknowledging prior topics. At every point throughout this discussion I've told you to go back and look at news articles (not just internet articles) of the topic at hand. When one does that it is clear his exits in Detroit, NY, and CHA show characteristics that, it is in my opinion, are evident.

Instead, BC is brought up which has no relevance on this discussion.

There is a difference of opinions which I've acknowledged and clarified obvious ambiguity on my part with a comment. I've tried to keep the conversation discussing LB but as usual the topic at hand is avoided and rather than discuss the original intent, all sorts of other issues are dragged in which cloud the original subject.

It was my assumption based on these types of conversations that I questioned your age. Rational adults do not converse in this manner. I'm going to leave it at agree to disagree. Best of luck to you.

so back to point, you think LB is selfish and manipulative and no one can question you on that ?

great !

i think you're just mad cuz i pointed out examples of you contradicting yourself...

you then skirted around the issues and guessed what grade im in, and made other insults, and then like usual accused me of skirting around the issues...

i think the only cure for you is a deep look in the mirror...

the lesson i hope you learned is dont accuse some people of being selfish and manipulative, if you dont have the facts to back yourself up...

hope you enjoy the rest of the season...

[heinz57]

lebron isn't selfish and manipulative.

he's just stupid. and looks like an unbearded Gimli from Lord of the Rings.