Sun, Colangelo interview

[nubreed000]

Face the facts. If that trade for Chandler and Diaw had occured, this team would be awesome. No Jose, JJ running the point, most likely would've linked up Barbosa anyways for Turk so Barbo as the backup PG.

Don't hate on BC, hate on the dbag Michael Jordan.

Also, bet on seeing MJ suit up for Charlotte next year. Don't believe me? At 49 he will try for the comeback, just watch.

It's Michael Jordans fault that the Raptors have sucked for 5 years now?

[webcrawler89]

Technically, we've only sucked for 4 years now, since we made playoffs in 07. I'm still not agreeing with all the pitchforking going on on this thread. Besides, IF BC had traded Bosh as soon as he got here, half of you would've tried to drive him out then, he really did have no choice but to place him as franchise player. And getting rid of Bosh would have made us suck a bit more, so we might have drafted some better players, and been in a better situation now...but since we're sucking so bad now, hopefully, we'll be in a better situation in a few years. So please guys, have some patience.

[CalibreMC]

he wasn't told to build around bosh, he CHOSE to build around bosh...

and if he couldnt figure out that bosh wasn't the guy to build around, as the GM it's HIS JOB to convince ownership that the team is better off by trading him.

BC CHOSE to build around bosh and even went as far as signing JJ.

So you are either sleeping with B. Colangelo or R. Peddie....which one is it?

How can you be so sure what he was and wasn't told to do?

Don't write your opinions as facts.

[tonious35]

In some ways, BC was handcuffed the last few years by perceptions and by the need to keep up appearances. When he first came here and "saved" the franchise, most of us got the impression that we had a franchise player in Bosh and that we were only 1 or two very good players away from being a perennial contender. And so he tinkered away with TJ Ford, and Jermaine O'Neal and (others) ......and Hedo Turkoglu. And most of us thought that that was the way to go as well; I certainly did.

But in the cold light of day, we finally realized that Bosh was not the franchise player we thought he was and that his All-Star stats belied. Bosh is a very good player, but a ton of his stats came about because the offense was centred around him. He couldn't make the players around him better; in fact I would argue that he made the others around him less effective because of the perceived need to run the offense through him.

Now that Bosh is gone, we know exactly what we have in a team. There are no false pretenses and no false expectations. We are building from the ground up with no fear of failure because we have hit near rock-bottom. But we do have some building blocks like DD and ED, and we are smart enough to treat them like building blocks rather than franchise players. I think the next 5 years would give us the truth about whether BC is a basketball genius or a trade-junkie if we were to resign him. I for one, would like to see him resigned if only to really see what he can do with a clean sheet.

Something that was never ever done at the Raptors' Bosh era: drafting and planning to go through 5 years straight with a talented wing-player and PF/C duo. I am not sure if Ed and Demar are the dynamic duo, but both look like players that are committed to improving their game everyday. At least we are drafting and building the correct way. Opportunity was pissed away when Roy was not picked #1, because Bosh really needed a talented guard to play beside, not another 7'0" who can't rebound with authority.

[yertu damkule]

can't say i'm surprised in the least at the amount of (unwarranted?) support for BC around here, given how much (unwarranted?) support is given certain players. oh well...there's really nothing wrong with medicrity, i suppose. it's like a food that you may not love, but you don't necessarily hate - you eat it often enough, and it starts to taste like filet mignon. we're so used to abject failure at this point, any semblance of competency is going to send the fans (the THers, at least) into a collective circle-jerk.

as nutso as this fanbase has become, i'm a little surprised that there isn't more call for a change in the regime, but i guess BC's worked his charm on the masses, and instilled enough of the 'there's no one better out there to replace him' mentality that there's now some kind of fear that he won't be re-upped. bizarre. it's such a weak argument, the whole 'well, if you want him canned, who would you suggest replace him?' mantra. who cares? he's already proven that he's incapable of rebuilding here once, but the devil we know is *better* than the devil we don't, i guess. but for those who insist on naming a replacement - you go about it the same way any logical franchise that knows anything about the game would go about hiring anyone - they scout, they research, they use their sources with other teams & in the media to determine a candidate list of 4-6 (or more/less) young, up-&-coming assistants from proven successful franchises who may be looking (and who are ready) for the opportunity to take over a young, rebuilding team. for some reason, fans in TO seem to think that the only qualified GMs that are 'good enough' for them are big, well-known, 'brand-name' guys. it's not about hiring a big splash guy & trying to impress your buddies at owners meetings, it's about hiring the guy best suited to perform the job you need done. i don't think it's any coincidence that the two major franchises owned by MLSE both made 'big splash' GM hirings, and that neither has proven to be successful (on the court/ice) in the least.

is BC CAPABLE of rebuilding this team? of course he is. WILL HE? who knows. HAS HE? not yet. rebuilding is more than putting a quasi-competent team together for a season or two, it's about changing the mindset of the franchise from loser to winner, and putting the foundation in place for long-term success.

i love how some of those supporting BC being extended also want JT canned, or find the players lacking in ability, or both. uh, we do realize who put JT in control of those players, right? and we do know who's responsible for those players being raptors, right? 5 years of essentially spinning the wheels of the franchise, or going backwards...it's kind of hard to argue that the franchise NOW isn't in worse shape than it was in '06 when he took over. well, except in terms of profit...i'm sure MLSE is quite content that they've turned a tidy profit from the team over that time, have never paid the lux. tax, and continue to be supported at the gate, in the ratings, and with merchandise sales. of course, those things are completely unrelated to on-court success, but who the f%&k really cares about that other than the stupid fans?

[slaw]

but since we're sucking so bad now, hopefully, we'll be in a better situation in a few years. So please guys, have some patience.

Sorry, I have sat through: naming the team Raptors, Damon Stoudemire playing 1 on 5, 16-66, the Slaight/Bitove/Thomas ownership debacle, the Vince Carter trade, Kobe's 81, losing to maccabi tel aviv, McGrady/Stoudemire/Bosh leaving, Rafael Araujo, Rob Babcock era, Chris Childs forgetting how to count, losing the first overall pick cause they were an expansion team, etc., etc.... hell, I was one of about 15 Raptors fans in Philly covered in gum and beer watching Vince's Game 6 (edit: 7) miss...

I have little patience left and am tired of watching the same patterns repeat themselves. Tired of mediocrity. I ain't getting any younger and I don't want to waste another 5 years on BC. I don't know if another guy could do any better but don't see how it can get much worse than most of the last 15 years.

[Apollo]

A GM with a plan

Rob Babcock had a plan. Where did that lead the team? We've had this discussion in the past in here. No point in suggesting he's best to let go unless you can present a better candidate for the job...

[albertan_10]

Face the facts. If that trade for Chandler and Diaw had occured, this team would be awesome. No Jose, JJ running the point, most likely would've linked up Barbosa anyways for Turk so Barbo as the backup PG.

Don't hate on BC, hate on the dbag Michael Jordan.

Also, bet on seeing MJ suit up for Charlotte next year. Don't believe me? At 49 he will try for the comeback, just watch.

+1

[yertu damkule]

Rob Babcock had a plan. Where did that lead the team? We've had this discussion in the past in here. No point in suggesting he be let go unless you can't present a better candidate for the job...

i think you mean 'can present a better...'

what, exactly, is it about the last 5 years that suggests that BC is good at all, or that there aren't 10 viable candidates who not only could have done what he did over the last 5 years (i.e. as good a job), but who are just as likely to produce a winning product on the court over the next 5 years as he is? what has been discussed ad nauseum in here is how BC had a golden opportunity with any number of variables at his disposal and complete/utter free reign to shape/build/mold this team as he saw fit when he took over in '06, and the franchise is, to put it bluntly, in as bad (or worse) shape now than it was then. so how hard can it possibly be to find someone who's 'better' than BC?

re. babcock - what was his 'plan,' exactly? oh right, catering to carter & acquiring/signing/extending mediocre players at his (carter's) behest. considering the great things he's gone on to accomplish (isn't he kahn's assistant?), i'm going to go out on a limb & say that he probably wasn't overly good at his job either. so, he & BC have more in common than most would probably want to admit...the difference is, BC - given his rep & lineage - would almost certainly be given another high-profile job as soon as one became available (whether it was warranted or not is irrelevent); perhaps the biggest fear some have is that he'll be successful elsewhere.

[Apollo]

If they traded Jose over the summer Jack would be here running the point now more than likely.

i think you mean 'can present a better...'

what, exactly, is it about the last 5 years that suggests that BC is good at all, or that there aren't 10 viable candidates who not only could have done what he did over the last 5 years (i.e. as good a job), but who are just as likely to produce a winning product on the court over the next 5 years as he is? what has been discussed ad nauseum in here is how BC had a golden opportunity with any number of variables at his disposal and complete/utter free reign to shape/build/mold this team as he saw fit when he took over in '06, and the franchise is, to put it bluntly, in as bad (or worse) shape now than it was then. so how hard can it possibly be to find someone who's 'better' than BC?

I'm not going to have this debate with you because I really don't care. Name some names already. It should be easy for you seeing how strongly you feel about the topic...

re. babcock - what was his 'plan,' exactly? oh right, catering to carter & acquiring/signing/extending mediocre players at his (carter's) behest. considering the great things he's gone on to accomplish (isn't he kahn's assistant?), i'm going to go out on a limb & say that he probably wasn't overly good at his job either. so, he & BC have more in common than most would probably want to admit...the difference is, BC - given his rep & lineage - would almost certainly be given another high-profile job as soon as one became available (whether it was warranted or not is irrelevent); perhaps the biggest fear some have is that he'll be successful elsewhere.

Babcock did have a plan. To rebuild the team around Bosh via the draft and to let inflated contracts expire. He was miserable at his job and he failed. He had a plan though. I was trying to illustrate a point. Having a plan doesn't necessarily lead to anything. Having a plan and being competent doesn't necessarily lead to anything either but that's a different story all together... Anyway, I think you either are forgetting how horrible Babcock was or you weren't around to witness it. There is a huge difference between Babcock in Colangelo. Colangelo A.) Has a great deal more of experience, B.) He was tutored but one of the best managers the league as seen in his father, C.) He has built his reputation throughout the league by drafting well and working the phones.

Babcock was brutal. He made gigantic mistakes in drafting Hoffa and he caving on Carter too early and ended up getting peanuts for him along with Zo, who he then gave $10M to go away. At the end of it, it was so bad that he was the laughing stock of the league and there were rumors that he couldn't even talk with other GMs because he had no respect or confidence to make a move. They then axed him, got Wayne Embry in to make the Jalen Rose trade which made the team marketable enough to lure Colangelo out of Phoenix.

You can toss that Babcock and Colangelo are the same junk out but it's not sticking. You're way off on this one. Sorry...

Who replaces Colangelo and why are they better?

[yertu damkule]

Face the facts. If that trade for Chandler and Diaw had occured, this team would be awesome. No Jose, JJ running the point, most likely would've linked up Barbosa anyways for Turk so Barbo as the backup PG.

Don't hate on BC, hate on the dbag Michael Jordan.

Also, bet on seeing MJ suit up for Charlotte next year. Don't believe me? At 49 he will try for the comeback, just watch.

if by 'awesome' you mean making the playoffs as the 7 or 8 seed & getting bounced, then i agree. AWESOME! right up MLSE's alley - they get the extra revenue from a couple playoff games, and they convince the fans that they're 'almost there.' warm up that treadmill, baby!

as for MJ - i can't disagree with your take on what happened with that trade, it was a bush move to back out like that, especially if you're then going to dump chandler for a pu pu platter that gives them even LESS financial flexibility. still...he looked at jose's contract & the past couple years, and just didn't feel it was worth it.

with respect to him playing next year...it's not impossible, but it's about as close to being out of the question as is possible. set aside his age...he's majority owner of the kitties...i'm pretty sure league bylaws prohibit majory owners from playing for the team they own, so he'd have to sell his majority stake in the team first...and there's no way that happens between now & next season. or the next season. when he came back as owner/player of the wiz, he was a minority owner.

[mcHAPPY]

if by 'awesome' you mean making the playoffs as the 7 or 8 seed & getting bounced, then i agree. AWESOME! right up MLSE's alley - they get the extra revenue from a couple playoff games, and they convince the fans that they're 'almost there.' warm up that treadmill, baby!

+1. In the long term I think it was better the deal did not go through. Everything happens for a reason.

[ErnieD]

[QUOTE=yertu damkule;65523]as nutso as this fanbase has become, i'm a little surprised that there isn't more call for a change in the regime, but i guess BC's worked his charm on the masses, and instilled enough of the 'there's no one better out there to replace him' mentality that there's now some kind of fear that he won't be re-upped. bizarre.

is BC CAPABLE of rebuilding this team? of course he is. WILL HE? who knows. HAS HE? not yet. rebuilding is more than putting a quasi-competent team together for a season or two, it's about changing the mindset of the franchise from loser to winner, and putting the foundation in place for long-term success.
QUOTE]

I am willing to see BC's contract extended, but it has nothing to do with being charmed by him or being afraid he won't re-up. After the VC and CB episodes, I don't think anyone here is afraid of that; if they don't re-up, then let's make the best of it and move on.

If we are to believe the story of BC's arrival in Toronto, it was at the behest and pressure of the league which had worries about the future survival of the franchise. His job was to come here, make things better, and make them better fast. We can all say that "well, BC has the authority to do whatever he wanted to with the franchise" but seriously who in this world doesn't have to answer to anybody??

League: Toronto is in trouble. Go there and make the team better. And make it snappy. We are afraid the farce that was the Babcock era will kill the franchise.
BC: Okay. My first task will be to tear everything down and rebuild from bottom up. Sure the team will suck for the next 5 years while there are growing pains, but in the end rebuilding from scratch with multiple lottery picks over those 5 years is the way to go.
League: Huh??? The team might not LAST 5 years in Toronto if they will suck that long!!! Didn't you hear what we said. Make them better NOW.

Come on, BC didn't have full freedom. Look at the Leafs (the most solid franchise in the NHL) who have gone the total rebuild route; anyone out there willing to say that Brian Burke isn't facing huge heat for what has transpired? At least he doesn't have to worry about the survival of the franchise.

Personally, I think the Raptors are on a sound financial foundation. Toronto will support an NBA franchise even if they continue to suck for the next 10 years -- there are enough die-hard basketball fans here to ensure that. There weren't a lot of people in the league office and at MLSE who believed that when Babcock was fired.

A rebuild now is a politically acceptable action, and it wasn't so when BC first arrived. My jury is still out on BC; He could be a genius; he could be a trade-junkie who gets AirMiles points for every trade he makes; he could simply be a good GM whose teams will never win an NBA championship. But I'm willing to give him a chance still because I think in the past he made deals to suit the political environment he was in. Now he has a lot more freedom because the team sucks and we all know it sucks and we all know it will take some time to rebuild.

And we have no prima donnas on this team that we have to kowtow to. (Some of you may argue with me about that wrt Andrea Bargnani.)

[yertu damkule]

I'm not going to have this debate with you because I really don't care. Name some names already. It should be easy for you seeing how strongly you feel about the topic...

the point isn't to just start blindly naming names, since i obviously have no insight into who would either legitimately be available or interested (and 99% of those reading probably wouldn't know who they are). but merely saying 'there's no one better, let's move on' doesn't seem to serve much purpose either. i'm merely interested, i suppose, in knowing what you're basing the notion that BC is so wonderful that he's irreplaceable upon? i assume that those who feel strongly about the future potential of DD, ED, etc. feel stronger about what BC has started doing, and would therefore be more open to having him stay on?

but if you want some names...i'd simply start by looking into the front office of teams who have built strong franchises, and seeing who might be a good fit, available, and interested. if you look around the league, teams on the rise (basically, those teams that until recently were in the same/similar position as the raps, and are who the raps would like to become sooner rather than later) are GM'd by guys who started as assistant's either with that team or with another, and were given an opportunity. frankly, i'm tired of the good 'ol boys who hop from team to team; i'm more than willing, at this point, to hand over the reigns to a young up-and-comer...because really, what's to lose?

so, guys i'd target - dennis lindsay, ryan mcdonough, keith grant, troy weaver, & kevin o'connor (ok, he's a pipe-dream, but with what's going on the with jazz...who knows?). lindsay & weaver would be at the top.

i do agree that it's very unlikely that they'd be able to attract a name-brand GM (a kevin pritchard, for example), but i don't really think it's in their best interest to look in that direction anyway, at least not at this stage of a rebuild.

[ErnieD]

i do agree that it's very unlikely that they'd be able to attract a name-brand GM (a kevin pritchard, for example), but i don't really think it's in their best interest to look in that direction anyway, at least not at this stage of a rebuild.

Lets not forget that before the Raptors hired him, BC was a "name-brand GM". No guarantees that the future will be brighter with (another) name-brand GM