Raptors and Leafs GM's and Toronto Fans

[heinz57]

Though I do agree with you, Michael Bradley averaged 20/10 for Vilanova in his Junior year... dude was solid...
and isn't the Heisman just for Football?? haha

yup

[GarbageTime]

I have a problem with 2), Grunwald was not the best evaluator in talent...Michael Bradley was taken in 2001 as our 1st Round 17th pick...

I didn't mean he was the best ever... just the best this organization has ever had. Vince, Davis, JYD, Alvin, Oakley, Mo Pete, Keon, McGrady... hard for anyone Raps GM since to compete with that team. Perfect... nope. But the best this team has seen... unquestionably.

[Multipaul]

I didn't mean he was the best ever... just the best this organization has ever had. Vince, Davis, JYD, Alvin, Oakley, Mo Pete, Keon, McGrady... hard for anyone Raps GM since to compete with that team. Perfect... nope. But the best this team has seen... unquestionably.

That was a good lineup for sure. I would argue that our division and the Eastern Conference were ALOT less competitive back then too though.

[pran]

I didn't mean he was the best ever... just the best this organization has ever had. Vince, Davis, JYD, Alvin, Oakley, Mo Pete, Keon, McGrady... hard for anyone Raps GM since to compete with that team. Perfect... nope. But the best this team has seen... unquestionably.

can you do us a favour? stop reliving the past and being a lil bitch, k thanks.

"You can spend minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even months over-analyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could've, would've happened... or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the fuck on."
— Tupac Shakur

[MangoKid]

1) Bargnani sees the most minutes and gets the most minutes. Reggie Evans started specifically to fill in for Bargs holes. Thats not being built around? If he is not being built around, why is he never held accountable for not defending or rebounding? He is being built around. God knows we can only hope it ends.

2) Yes Grunwald did move trade for Rose when Davis asked to be traded (I can get into a entire Vince thing here). But Grunwald has been the only GM to date that has had a good eye for talent (both picks and trades), built with toughness, rebounding and defense (Davis, Clark, Oakley, JYD, Alvin). I was sorely disappointed in Grunwald when he made that move. I'm not going to claim he was perfect..... but look at what GMs have given this team since. He has been the best evaluator of talent this team has had.

Really? The rose move was fantastic? Uggg... yeah well I guess there are guys that think Bargnani is a great player to... so it makes sense some would like the Jalen move. The dude sucked. Always sucked after college. Still sucked when he got here. He was the classic high usage low efficiency player. Then he had an atrocious contract to boot.

Bargs is a chucker. He is one of the higher usage players in the league. He has a poor shooting % (always has.. especially for his position). Does nothing but play on offense. Thats a chucker. (yeah Lopez is just as soft... yeah Bargs!...yet still rebounds more and plays better D. Impressive. Sorry how good are the Nets again?)

3) Since Bosh got to Toronto everyone felt he needs to be moved to the 4 (and he wanted that himself). Bargnani was again drafted to move Bosh to the 4. (Colangelo stated it himself on numerous occasions... although not as the sole reason)

4) Toughness factor in 06-07? All wrapped up in Garbo? Please. I think Garbo was great...again one tough player (I'd say 2 with Mo Pete). How about a team of tough players instead of 1 or 2.

You are right.. who knows what this offseason holds. But given the previous 4 it should be more the same from the 7 ft wimp. (its all he has ever shown... not sure why people suddenly think he will change. He has mentioned himself on numerous occasions that he needs to change... yet he still doesn't) One thing I can tell you... as long as Bargnani is Colangelo's golden boy, he IS being built around.

Now that I re-read this debate... maybe the problem is the fans and not the execs. I mean if people actually think Jalen Rose or Bargnani are good or useful players, that Garbo was tough enough to make up for a team of pussies, think Bosh was good enough to build around then go pay for a ticket to see these chumps play...... sigh.

I want to see the Raps as successful as the next guy... but I can say I find it hard to start blaming execs when fans seem pleased with their shitty moves.......

1) Bargnani is not being built around. He's the team's best player, but he's not being built around. Reggie started specifically to cover Bargnani's shortcomings. True. But to say that he's starting because team team is building around Bargnani is folly. You're trying to put the best 5 out there to play. That's the mode that this team is in right now. There's not one player that this team is building around. Not Davis, Not DeRozan.

2) Grunwald a TON of shortcomings. He shouldn't be exempt from that. Let's take a look at things: The lowball offer to McGrady, the Lammond Murray trade, the Yogi Stewart deal, drafting Redjovic, the drafting of Bradley, the drafting of Kareem Rush, the fat contract he gave to Olajuwon, the contract he gave to Boogie without due dillegence on his knees.. so Grunwald isn't some sort of basketball god. I'd say at least the moves that Colangelo has made hasn't crippled the franchise for years.
If you can please re-read my post, I had stated that at first instance, the Rose trade was fantastic. He came in and gave the Raptors what they needed. If I'm not mistaken, when he arrived, the team won 7 straight. However, Vince went down (what's new?) and the team never recovered from that.

Lopez rebounds more than Bargnani? Check the stats. They're roughly the same. He's not going into the paint to fight for boards. But yet, a lot of people see him as a franchise centre.

4) In 06-07, we had Graham, Garbajosa, Nesterovic, and Peterson - all tough players in their own right.


I think some people love to complain for the sake of complaining.

[Joey]

can you do us a favour? stop reliving the past and being a lil bitch, k thanks.

"You can spend minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even months over-analyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could've, would've happened... or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the fuck on."
— Tupac Shakur

You are VERY cool for quoting Tupac... but the fact that you called someone a "little b*tch" makes me very hesitant to ever respect ANYTHING you have to say... just saying.

I don't agree with him; but name calling and putting people down automatically places me on the opposite team of the immature person who chooses to call people names.

[MangoKid]

Though I do agree with you, Michael Bradley averaged 20/10 for Vilanova in his Junior year... dude was solid...
and isn't the Heisman just for Football?? haha

Not all college stats and games translate to the pros. You know that.

While he was solid at Nova, he just had that one year at Nova and the scouting report was that the kid was slow. Like his feet were covered in cinder blocks slow. His post moves were nothing special, neither was his D.

[Joey]

Not all college stats and games translate to the pros. You know that.

While he was solid at Nova, he just had that one year at Nova and the scouting report was that the kid was slow. Like his feet were covered in cinder blocks slow. His post moves were nothing special, neither was his D.

Oh I know. He was stupid to leave Kentucky.. but generally a guy who averages 20/10 in NCAA will be a decent pick at #17. Generally. But ya, the dude WAS slow and everyone knew it. Just saying, 20/10 is nothing to sneeze at.

[GarbageTime]

can you do us a favour? stop reliving the past and being a lil bitch, k thanks.

"You can spend minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even months over-analyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could've, would've happened... or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the fuck on."
— Tupac Shakur

where did that come from? I was talking about this organization as a whole, where its been and where its going... you ignore the past and you won't be able to predict the future. Sure as hell seems like thats whats happening with this team.

[GarbageTime]

1) Lopez rebounds more than Bargnani? Check the stats. They're roughly the same. He's not going into the paint to fight for boards. But yet, a lot of people see him as a franchise centre.

I think some people love to complain for the sake of complaining.

I won't get into all of this (and the Jalen Rose stuff is complete nonsense.).

Brook Lopez rebounds per 5.8 in 34 minutes

Bargs rebounds 5.5 in just under 36 minutes

so yeah there is your stats. He does rebound more than Bargs, and Lopez sucks at it. Some people may see him as a Franchise center... and I'll tell them the same thing. You don't build around a 7 ft wimp.

I'm not complaining for complaining sakes. I'm complaining because the organization is screwing up again.

[MangoKid]

I won't get into all of this (and the Jalen Rose stuff is complete nonsense.).

Brook Lopez rebounds per 5.8 in 34 minutes

Bargs rebounds 5.5 in just under 36 minutes

so yeah there is your stats. He does rebound more than Bargs, and Lopez sucks at it. Some people may see him as a Franchise center... and I'll tell them the same thing. You don't build around a 7 ft wimp.

I'm not complaining for complaining sakes. I'm complaining because the organization is screwing up again.

Give it a couple of years brother. The finish product will be great. We got some solid young players and will add it to via the draft this year. It'll be a team we can all be proud to call ours. At least that's the hope I'm holding onto.

[Joey]

Give it a couple of years brother. The finish product will be great. We got some solid young players and will add it to via the draft this year. It'll be a team we can all be proud to call ours. At least that's the hope I'm holding onto.

Lo and behold, there IS an optimist among us!

[GarbageTime]

Give it a couple of years brother. The finish product will be great. We got some solid young players and will add it to via the draft this year. It'll be a team we can all be proud to call ours. At least that's the hope I'm holding onto.

Oh I agree. Need to give it about 4 more years or a new GM.....

[karim_nasir]

In my opinion, it is an indictment on MLSE not committed to winning but instead profits and the used car salesmen we have as GMs that keep swinging for the fences, hoping to get an home run lol. Food for thought. A change of owners to a single owner like the billionaire Jim Balsille and a change of these GMs that have no plan and vision and keep selling us their koolaid is the only way to respectability for both franchises. "Nuff said.

agree... dont hire a guy if his vision is just 100% offense... do a simple google search and realize that 100% of the teams that have won nba championships were above average defensively...

with the best run n gun pg maybe ever, the suns were never even able to make it out of their conference... why would you try to copy that with jose and amir johnson ??