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Thread: Insider: Hollinger shows Raptors no love in list of "up-and-coming teams to watch"

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    Default Insider: Hollinger shows Raptors no love in list of "up-and-coming teams to watch"

    He's got the Grizz, Philly, Pacers and GSW. No Raptors. Makes sense, maybe we'll be up-and-coming in three years.

    Grizzlies: The Grizzlies have quietly become the league's most fascinating NBA League Pass squad, from the Rudy Gay aerials to the Tony Allen box of chocolates to the "He did WHAT?" in-game decisions from Lionel Hollins. The Grizzlies somehow transitioned from an offensive team last season to a defensive team this season, even though they kept all the same players.

    Philly: They looked terrible after a 3-13 start, but the Sixers are 23-15 since and 9-3 in their past 12 -- with seven of the wins by double figures. Like Memphis, they very well could grab their conference's No. 6 seed.

    Pacers: The Pacers have won seven of eight since Frank Vogel replaced Jim O'Brien as head coach and now project as a strong bet to make the playoffs -- today's Playoff Odds gives them a 76.5 percent probability. The theme under Vogel has been younger and more offensive-minded -- Josh McRoberts, Dahntay Jones and Paul George are in the rotation; James Posey and Solomon Jones are out. Notably, Vogel has been more consistent, too. O'Brien would change his rotation from game to game and at times from quarter to quarter depending on matchups; Vogel has kept the same 10-man mix thus far.

    Warriors: After being shed of the bumbling ownership of Chris Cohan, the Warriors have embarked upon a plan to end a pathetic 16-season streak in which they have not finished in the top half of the Western Conference standings once. The best they finished was eighth in a 15-team conference in 2007.

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    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    We're not "Up and Coming."
    We're "Way, Way Down."

    We can see the positives. But the needed additions, this years draft and possible free agents will show whether we could be decent next year.
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Yeah, considering the teams he did include, that makes perfect sense. Those four are all in competition for the playoffs.

    Hard to see though, minus the absence of a star, how you could be in a better position to rebuild than the Raptors. Sure it may be difficult to attract free agents, but that places more emphasis on the draft, which is not only more exciting, but better in any team's long term interests. As faulty as Colangelo may be, I have full confidence in his ability to draft better than almost anyone (with the exception of Spurs management. What the fuck is up with their drafting skills?)

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    Raptors Republic Rookie webcrawler89's Avatar
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    The Spurs management became really smart after they drafted Robinson and realized that they're best bet is to build through the draft. Since then they've somehow built up a system to draft hardworking guys. I mean, these are the guys who drafted Dejuan Blair when no one else would b/c of his ACL problems, but look at him now!

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    I suppose, too, that having such talent on the roster allows a team like the Spurs to take chances on guys with injury issues. If the injury prevents the players from really playing, then, you're still the Spurs, and you'll manage. But if it turns out the injury isn't a permanent debilitator, then you look like a genius.

    Of course, we'll see how Blair is able to play in 3 years with no ACL. Again, when you're in win now mode, such as the Spurs, you can take your chances that a player may only be able to help you for a few years before they become broken.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Uhh..he chose 3 playoff teams, those are pretty safe bets for up and coming teams. GS I am not convinced that they'll get anywhere near a playoff spot with that bench and their centers. They look like the NYK's of the last couple of years. Toronto is behind the Clippers and ahead of the Kings, Wolves, Nets, Washington for up and coming young teams. So, that's not even considering the borderline playoff teams in both conference's that are ahead of the Raptors. I wouldn't sweat it, that was a pretty weak article.
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    He's got the Grizz, Philly, Pacers and GSW. No Raptors. Makes sense, maybe we'll be up-and-coming in three years.
    It is understandable - we don't have a legit first option as we only have role players as starters now(but at least we do not have a bleak future like the Cleveland Cadavers lol). However, the Warriors whould not be on that list in my opinion(they are in flux in the competition side and they have two similar players a la Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry that love the ball in their hands, which is why one of them needs to be traded for a complementing piece if they want to be relevant anytime soon and they have to start playing defense too). I would put the Sacramento Kings(because they have a franchise guard in Tyreke Evans and a franchise center in Demarcus Cousins and are still bad enough to get an all-important wing to complete the triumvrate needed to win in today's NBA) and the Clippers(two franchise players in Eric Gordon as a star guard and Blake Griffin as the star forward and an excellent center in the middle in DeAndre Jordan and are still bad enough to complete the triumvrate by adding a decent SF in the draft) ahead of the Golden State Warriors in my opinion.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    It is understandable - we don't have a legit first option as we only have role players as starters now.
    You've been saying this for quite some time, and in my opinion, I honestly find it to be a ridiculous statement.
    You're telling me that if/when we are a playoff team, that NONE of these guys will be in the starting rotation, or deserve to be?
    Really?

    And seriously? Demarcus Cousins is a FRANCHISE Center? Really? I heard people saying that about Brook Lopez too... and if these guys are franchise centers, than so is Bargs. What the hell has Cousins proved to anyone to be a 'Franchise' Center, except that he can be a drama-queen and horrible teammate. Sounds like a perfect "Franchise" guy.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Feb 15th, 2011 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    You've been saying this for quite some time, and in my opinion, I honestly find it to be a ridiculous statement.
    You're telling me that if/when we are a playoff team, that NONE of these guys will be in the starting rotation, or deserve to be?
    Really?

    And seriously? Demarcus Cousins is a FRANCHISE Center? Really? I heard people saying that about Brook Lopez too... and if these guys are franchise centers, than so is Bargs. What the hell has Cousins proved to anyone to be a 'Franchise' Center, except that he can be a drama-queen and horrible teammate. Sounds like a perfect "Franchise" guy.
    I did not say that they would not be starters - however, they will be only be role players on the Raptors team which is contending hopefully in the future coming from a realistic fan. We can only hope we get a franchise player(hope MLSE does not screw it up again letting the player go a la Chris Bosh and VC) through the draft because I don't see franchise level talent(Ed Davis and DD are the only ones close to that if they can take that huge step especially in DD's case) on this team right now. Demarcus Cousins is a franchise center imo because he does the necessary thing needed for a team to win(rebounds the ball, defends and set solid screens - he even passes the ball out of the post well once he collapses the defense into the paint and I think that explains a franchise center to me. The day Bargs does any of these things is the day I stop criticising him. Also, you mentioned Demarcus Cousins as a "horrible" teammmate(I expected him to be a headcase like Rasheed Wallace, I am not surprised) however, one he is a young guy just coming into the league and is not mature yet(I think you like players that are mature, but let me give you an example - everyone knows LeBron James is an immature player and is extremely narcissistic a la Kanye West and you can't deny both guys' talents. Any GM would want LeBron James on his team even though he has fatal childish flaws in your opinion. If you expect athletes to be mature when the media give them the world all the way from high school to the NBA, you would be sorely disappointed lol) plus the fact, he is averaging 15 and 8 as a rookie while he is being a "bad" teammate(I would like that "bad" teammate that wants to win and have the ball in his hand in the clutch a la Tyreke Evans looking off Demarcus Cousins in the post while he chucks a 3 with the Sacramento Kings down 2 to OKC in the clutch).

    Consequently, if he is averaging 15 and 8 and starts passing the ball for a better option - I would want to see him when he has developed his game(15 and 8 by a rookie is no joke in ramifications and if he puts all the tools together, the NBA world better be on notice lol).

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    I did not say that they would not be starters - however, they will be only be role players on the Raptors team which is contending hopefully in the future coming from a realistic fan. We can only hope we get a franchise player(hope MLSE does not screw it up again letting the player go a la Chris Bosh and VC) through the draft because I don't see franchise level talent(Ed Davis and DD are the only ones close to that if they can take that huge step especially in DD's case) on this team right now. Demarcus Cousins is a franchise center imo because he does the necessary thing needed for a team to win(rebounds the ball, defends and set solid screens - he even passes the ball out of the post well once he collapses the defense into the paint and I think that explains a franchise center to me. The day Bargs does any of these things is the day I stop criticising him. Also, you mentioned Demarcus Cousins as a "horrible" teammmate(I expected him to be a headcase like Rasheed Wallace, I am not surprised) however, one he is a young guy just coming into the league and is not mature yet(I think you like players that are mature, but let me give you an example - everyone knows LeBron James is an immature player and is extremely narcissistic a la Kanye West and you can't deny both guys' talents. Any GM would want LeBron James on his team even though he has fatal childish flaws in your opinion. If you expect athletes to be mature when the media give them the world all the way from high school to the NBA, you would be sorely disappointed lol) plus the fact, he is averaging 15 and 8 as a rookie while he is being a "bad" teammate(I would like that "bad" teammate that wants to win and have the ball in his hand in the clutch a la Tyreke Evans looking off Demarcus Cousins in the post while he chucks a 3 with the Sacramento Kings down 2 to OKC in the clutch).

    Consequently, if he is averaging 15 and 8 and starts passing the ball for a better option - I would want to see him when he has developed his game(15 and 8 by a rookie is no joke in ramifications and if he puts all the tools together, the NBA world better be on notice lol).
    Fair case.

    But just going back to the 'Starters' vs. 'Role Players' ... so in the alternate universe where the Raptors are contending for a title in 3 years, you don't foresee ANY current player on the roster being capable of starting? Ed? Demar? Amir? None of them?

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Fair case.

    But just going back to the 'Starters' vs. 'Role Players' ... so in the alternate universe where the Raptors are contending for a title in 3 years, you don't foresee ANY current player on the roster being capable of starting? Ed? Demar? Amir? None of them?
    I said it above already that Ed and Davis are the only 2 starters, I see on a playoff contending team probably for the Raptors in the future.

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    I agree those are good young teams because they are competing for the playoffs.

    However, my theory is that you need a bonafide STAR to build a truly competitive team.

    Thus, the two real up and coming teams are:

    Wizards
    Clippers

    those other teams are on the treadmill

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    If cousins is a franchise player then ANdrea is a franchise player. ANdrea is a much better passer then cousins and also passes the ball well out of double teams. You obviously are smarter then everyone else so why disagree and ed and davis are the same person lol

    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    I said it above already that Ed and Davis are the only 2 starters, I see on a playoff contending team probably for the Raptors in the future.

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    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    I did not say that they would not be starters - however, they will be only be role players on the Raptors team which is contending hopefully in the future coming from a realistic fan. We can only hope we get a franchise player(hope MLSE does not screw it up again letting the player go a la Chris Bosh and VC) through the draft because I don't see franchise level talent(Ed Davis and DD are the only ones close to that if they can take that huge step especially in DD's case) on this team right now. Demarcus Cousins is a franchise center imo because he does the necessary thing needed for a team to win(rebounds the ball, defends and set solid screens - he even passes the ball out of the post well once he collapses the defense into the paint and I think that explains a franchise center to me. The day Bargs does any of these things is the day I stop criticising him. Also, you mentioned Demarcus Cousins as a "horrible" teammmate(I expected him to be a headcase like Rasheed Wallace, I am not surprised) however, one he is a young guy just coming into the league and is not mature yet(I think you like players that are mature, but let me give you an example - everyone knows LeBron James is an immature player and is extremely narcissistic a la Kanye West and you can't deny both guys' talents. Any GM would want LeBron James on his team even though he has fatal childish flaws in your opinion. If you expect athletes to be mature when the media give them the world all the way from high school to the NBA, you would be sorely disappointed lol) plus the fact, he is averaging 15 and 8 as a rookie while he is being a "bad" teammate(I would like that "bad" teammate that wants to win and have the ball in his hand in the clutch a la Tyreke Evans looking off Demarcus Cousins in the post while he chucks a 3 with the Sacramento Kings down 2 to OKC in the clutch).

    Consequently, if he is averaging 15 and 8 and starts passing the ball for a better option - I would want to see him when he has developed his game(15 and 8 by a rookie is no joke in ramifications and if he puts all the tools together, the NBA world better be on notice lol).
    This consistently gnaws at me about AB. Until he does most of these things how can he be considered anything other than a liability and trade bait?
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    He's got the Grizz, Philly, Pacers and GSW. No Raptors. Makes sense, maybe we'll be up-and-coming in three years.
    I disagree with this. The only team that is up and coming, IMO, are the Pacers. Here is why:

    Grizzlies: $40M tied up in 9 players. They have no depth and their starting bigs are free agents that are going to cost around $25M per year between the 2 of them which takes them up to the salary cap with only the MLE to use to add depth (given todays CBA, who knows next year). They have franchise money tied up in a player who is not a franchise player and a big contract attached to a second tier PG (both sound familiar?). They are on the outskirts of playoffs (1/2 game out as of this morning). The only thing that helps them in my opinion is if they shed salary (Thabeet) and get some assets for Mayo (high draft pick and/or depth for the bench). They are stuck in pergatory of struggling to make the playoffs and the reward for making it is getting kicked out first round. If they do make the playoffs they also do not have a 1st roudn pick this year.

    Philly: They have $54M tied up in 9 players for next year. Brand and Iggy are not franchise players but are paid like them and Iggy has reached his ceiling while Brand is on the decline. They have RFA's which are going to be difficult to retain but even if they do they are still a below .500 team struggling tomake the playoffs. Their draft pick is essentially a lotto ticket. The only bright spot is the continued development of Holiday. With the roster as is, how much higher can they go? What trade assets do they have to improve? Turner? Turner has been a considerable let down for a second pick overall.

    Warriors: Very talented but undersized back court. Undersized PF making a lot of money who is not adding wins. $9M tied up in a chronically injured C. $50M payroll already committed to next season to only 8 players. 5 games out of the playoffs in the West. Bright spots in Curry and probably one of the best FA signings of the summer in Dorrell Wright. Udoh is not looking spectacular. They do have expirings and might be able to pick up some talent but, again IMO, this is purgatory-continued for the Warriors. Especially with another later lottery draft pick and, outside of Curry, few good picks in the last couple of years and no 2012 1st round 8 or higher (top 7 protected to NJ). The only bright spot is they do have 2 valuable assets (Curry and Ellis) which trading one could return good young players and draft picks.

    The Pacers are a different story. They only have $35M in contracts for next season for 10 players. Have a legit star in Granger when healthy (this is their biggest issue, IMO). After Grangers contract, only 1 other (Posey, 1 year $7M) not on a rookie or deal below $3M. They have solid young players in Hibbert, Collison, Hansbrough, and George with prospects in Price and Stephenson. With all the youth and cap space they are still sitting in 8th spot and battling for playoffs.

    THis is all my opinion, of course.

    Given the Raps better cap situation and draft picks (especially their own) I feel better long term than if I were a fan of any of those teams - minus the Pacers. Their fans future is similar to what the Raps have endured the last 2-3 years - again, IMO.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    It is understandable - we don't have a legit first option as we only have role players as starters now(but at least we do not have a bleak future like the Cleveland Cadavers lol). However, the Warriors whould not be on that list in my opinion(they are in flux in the competition side and they have two similar players a la Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry that love the ball in their hands, which is why one of them needs to be traded for a complementing piece if they want to be relevant anytime soon and they have to start playing defense too). I would put the Sacramento Kings(because they have a franchise guard in Tyreke Evans and a franchise center in Demarcus Cousins and are still bad enough to get an all-important wing to complete the triumvrate needed to win in today's NBA) and the Clippers(two franchise players in Eric Gordon as a star guard and Blake Griffin as the star forward and an excellent center in the middle in DeAndre Jordan and are still bad enough to complete the triumvrate by adding a decent SF in the draft) ahead of the Golden State Warriors in my opinion.
    i get what you're saying about the dubs, and i haven't seen a whole lot of them...but i watched their game vs. the thunder the other day, and wow. just...wow. they actually played a really well-rounded game, defended well, rebounded, pushed when it was to their advantage, and really did a great job sharing the ball. i think the notion that ellis & curry *can't* play together because they both need the ball has some merit, but i saw an awful lot of 'pure PG' - at least in stretches - from curry. he really came across as unselfish & was more than will to defer to ellis & lee, but also picked great moments to look for his shot (which is absolute silk).

    good gawd, watching that game made me envious...it wasn't just the difference in pure skill, but the overall on-court product was fascinating; the ebb/flow of the game, the athleticism, the basketball smarts that just jump out when watching certain players that we hardly ever see - outside of jose - on the raps.

    sigh. so much great ball going on league-wide, and we get the raps. yay us.
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    i get what you're saying about the dubs, and i haven't seen a whole lot of them...but i watched their game vs. the thunder the other day, and wow. just...wow. they actually played a really well-rounded game, defended well, rebounded, pushed when it was to their advantage, and really did a great job sharing the ball. i think the notion that ellis & curry *can't* play together because they both need the ball has some merit, but i saw an awful lot of 'pure PG' - at least in stretches - from curry. he really came across as unselfish & was more than will to defer to ellis & lee, but also picked great moments to look for his shot (which is absolute silk).

    good gawd, watching that game made me envious...it wasn't just the difference in pure skill, but the overall on-court product was fascinating; the ebb/flow of the game, the athleticism, the basketball smarts that just jump out when watching certain players that we hardly ever see - outside of jose - on the raps.

    sigh. so much great ball going on league-wide, and we get the raps. yay us.
    I have not been watching the Golden State Warriors of late but they are still outside the playoffs by some amount of games. i don't see that team in the playoffs for some time. Their defense is still as atrocious(they get breaks because most of their guards gamble for steals and they have solid man defenders in their big men, they are playing defense like the Memphis Grizzlies which will win you some games but lose you some especially against teams that know how to protect the ball) and they depend too much on the 3(they are gonna win some games with their stellar offense but would lose a lot with it. just saying). Watching the Raptors imo does not constitute good basketball, that is why I watch other games too(plus the NBA Sunday showcase on ABC shows elite basketball teams play basketball the right way). I am a fan of this team but that does not mean I will wear rose-colored glasses and say they play the game the right way lol.

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