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Thread: Wow...that happened quickly.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Default Wow...that happened quickly.

    it seems like just yesterday when being a raptor fan filled one with, at worst, optimistic hope. you could look at the other atlantic teams, and it was a sea of mediocrity (at best), without much of a future. NY was a joke, NJ was imploding, philly was meh, and boston looked like it was going to lose it's franchise player. ah, 2006/7. heady times. TO brings in a 'legit' wunderkind to right the ship, they get the #1 pick, lots of cap space, and have a 'franchise' player to build around.

    now? well, let's see...

    boston pulled a couple heist moves in acquiring KG & allen, after being foiled in their attempts to tank & get the #1 pick in '07. usually, the karma gods bestow pain/suffering/misery on that kind of blatant tanking, but not in beantown, where it's been rewarded with a chip, a top-5 pg & a longer run of excellence than anyone would likely have thought at the time.

    philly - it took a while, and having brand be brand for a couple years didn't help...neither did iggy thinking he was a number 1 scoring option. but over the last few months, they've been one of the better teams in the east. brand is BRAND again, holliday is taking control of that team, iggy is playing like everyone says he should (picking his spots offensively, great D, etc.), and turner is showing why people have such high hopes for him.

    NJ - still somethong of a joke, but certainly with some upside. if they could figure how how lopez caught bargnaniitis (a strange & unexplained mental disorder that causes the sufferer to be unable or unwilling to rebound) & treat it, they'd have a fairly decent future, even if they missed out on melo (and killed murphy's trade value this season). they'll be active this week...should be interesting how things play out.

    NY - i guess they aren't a joke now, right? not title contenders (yet), still don't have much of a bench, and they can't really stop anyone, but they've moved themselves into a position to at least compete with the upper echelon teams in the E. like the heat, it'll probably be another year or two before all the pieces come together, but the future looks bright.

    and now...YOUR...TORONTOOOOOOOOOO RAPTORRRRRS! - hmm. let's see. i like their uniforms. ed davis looks like a decent enough prospect, at least on the defensive/rebounding side. derozan is likely a good 2nd/3rd scoring option. bargs is bargs (i.e. what you see is what you're going to get). the future? who knows?

    so, basically, the raptors went from being a team on the rise in a division that sucked just 4 years ago, to being on the outside looking in at that same division. they've been passed by literally every team in their division in such a short timeframe, it kinda makes your head spin.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Nothing changes for Toronto at all. They weren't a team on the rise. They're like two or three years out from making any sort of noise at best. A lot can happen in that amount of time. The Celtics as you know them will be over by then. The 76ers aren't that far ahead right now. Who knows what sorts of pieces the Knicks will have around Amare and Melo by then but neither has won anything and their head coach's system has failed time after time in the playoffs. No need to worry if you're going to be able to drive on the 401 in rush hour if you're not old enough to even get your learners permit.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I agree with the analysis - not saying it is wrong because it is only opinions afterall.

    NYK - absolutely got a top tier talent to play with another. However, they gave up much of their depth to get it. New CBA could certainly hinder flexibilty moving forward (MIA too)

    BOS - they are still one of the top teams but the expiration date is causing one to sniff in the carton (does that make sense?). Certainly good for another season or two but after that???

    PHI - what you see is what you get. They still lack a starting C, Brand is certainly playing better but nowhere near his best days and is owed $35M for the next 2 seasons, AI is good but not a franchise player. They have a lot of money tied up in what they have. The only way I see them getting better is if Holiday and Turner become stars.

    NJ - They have Lopez who has regressed - that is it. Favors is still a prospect and I'd rather have Davis due to his obvious high bball IQ, they have another 4 years of Outlaw, Devin Harris is on his way out and they are looking for an expiring in Miller in return. I honestly feel NJ is in a harder spot than TOR. Their only saving grace is the draft.

    For the next year or two I agree with your assessment with the exception of NJ. However, in two seasons I think playoffs are a minimum expectation.

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    Yeah, the Raps are still the in the same boat as before; they need to draft well, try to avoid making any FA mistakes, and hope like hell that DeDe and Davis make a leap to above-average starter/boarderline allstar level.
    This team is not going to be an sucessful playoff team until they aquire an impact 1 or 3 that can break defenses down off the dribble, take the ball to the hoop, get to the line, and play tough defense. The whole franchise needs to develop a new defensive mentality as well, one that affects how they draft and sign new players.
    If they can do those 2 things, it won't matter what the other teams in the division do.

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    1) Horford nailed TJ and destroyed the 2 headed guard beast
    2) Garbajosa picked the wrong breakaway to hustle on, SNAP GOES LEG, and we lost the leader that would have stayed and punched people's faces into being a disciplined team.
    That is what happened.

    Knicks just took 6 steps forward but 5 back.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Speaking of the Raptors future, based on a couple different articles, I'm wondering if BC might be making a run at Danilo Gallinari?

    The ESPN article summarizing the blockbuster Anthony trade indicates that Toronto is one of a few rumored potential destinations for Gallinari, with Denver wanting at least a 1st-round pick in return. article link: http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/n...ory?id=6145912

    Doug Smith's blog refers to BC saying he'd be willing to trade Miami's 1st-round pick in the upcoming draft, for the right player. article link: http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...or-trade-front

    Obviously I'm doing some inferring to make article 1 + article 2 = a Gallinari-to-Toronto rumor, but I think there is some logical sense to it.
    1 - the Raptors are thin at the SF position, which Gallinari plays
    2 - the Raptors have been a terrible shooting team this season, especially from 3pt land, which is a Gallinari strength
    3 - Denver wants a 1st-round pick and Toronto seems willing to give one up

    I wonder if Miami's 1st-round pick and maybe Alabi, given Masai Ujiri's relationship with Alabi and his role in Toronto trading for him this past draft day, would be sufficient for a Gallinari-to-Toronto trade?

    So, I pose two questions to RR members:
    1 - do you think this type of deal could be on the horizon?
    2 - if yes, what do you thik of this deal from Toronto's standpoint?
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 11:57 AM.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Speaking of the Raptors future, based on a couple different articles, I'm wondering if BC might be making a run at Danilo Gallinari?

    The ESPN article summarizing the blockbuster Anthony trade indicates that Toronto is one of a few rumored potential destinations for Gallinari, with Denver wanting at least a 1st-round pick in return. article link: http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/n...ory?id=6145912

    Doug Smith's blog refers to BC saying he'd be willing to trade Miami's 1st-round pick in the upcoming draft, for the right player. article link: http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...or-trade-front

    Obviously I'm doing some inferring to make article 1 + article 2 = a Gallinari-to-Toronto rumor, but I think there is some logical sense to it.
    1 - the Raptors are thin at the SF position, which Gallinari plays
    2 - the Raptors have been a terrible shooting team this season, especially from 3pt land, which is a Gallinari strength
    3 - Denver wants a 1st-round pick and Toronto seems willing to give one up

    I wonder if Miami's 1st-round pick and maybe Alabi, given Masai Ujiri's relationship with Alabi and his role in Toronto trading for him this past draft day, would be sufficient for a Gallinari-to-Toronto trade?

    So, I pose two questions to RR members:
    1 - do you think this type of deal could be on the horizon?
    2 - if yes, what do you thik of this deal from Toronto's standpoint?
    Whoa Whoa Whoa... Gallinari is WAAYYY too similar a player to Bargnani for this to really make sense. I know Galli is a SF and Bargs a PF/C but the only reason Bargs isn't a SF is his frame.

    That being said, A) I'd rather Gallinari over Bargs at this point (just straight tired), use Bargs trade value and get 1/some solid pieces out of him... and B) a late 1st round pick + Alabi for Galli.. if that trade is legal you'd have to do it no questions asked!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Nothing changes for Toronto at all. They weren't a team on the rise. They're like two or three years out from making any sort of noise at best. A lot can happen in that amount of time. The Celtics as you know them will be over by then. The 76ers aren't that far ahead right now. Who knows what sorts of pieces the Knicks will have around Amare and Melo by then but neither has won anything and their head coach's system has failed time after time in the playoffs. No need to worry if you're going to be able to drive on the 401 in rush hour if you're not old enough to even get your learners permit.
    Apollo, you hit the nail on the head, Toronto hasn't changed. We need a GM that will change things and his name ain't Bryan Colangelo. He got 5 years to do it. Now, it's someone else's to do so.

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    Yeah, they got Jones from Chicago with that pick.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote keffyboy wrote: View Post
    Yeah, they got Jones from Chicago with that pick.
    Jones?

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Jones?
    Ya we just got James Jones as well. Didn't you hear ... oh no wait...

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Apollo, you hit the nail on the head, Toronto hasn't changed. We need a GM that will change things and his name ain't Bryan Colangelo. He got 5 years to do it. Now, it's someone else's to do so.
    I have no problem with that if that someone is qualified, competent, intelligent, and has connections around the league. If not then it's counter productive.

  13. #13
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    Default From Titanic to Deathstar

    In 4-5 short years, our division has gone from Titanic laughing stalk of the league to an eminent deathstar.

    Boston: Big 4
    NYK: Amare, Melo Paul next year?
    NJ: Russian Marc Cuban, Deron Williams (things are looking up)
    Philly: Playing great ball with Iggy, Brand, Turner and Holiday
    Toronto: Just landed James Johnson

    Is it just my math, or does that all add up to a ton of losses over the next five or so years for our Atlantic division Raps?

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    I have no problem with this team being in the basement for the next year or two in order to stockpile assets. You build this team right, not half-assed.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default How I see it

    Boston: "Grumpy Old Men". One year, maybe two before it's over.
    NYC: Bare bones. Dolan is stepping in again, this time vetoing Walsh's efforts to not overpay for Melo, a guy they might have been able to sign as an FA in the summer. Rumors of Zeke being in Dolan's ear again is cause for concern. Last time Dolan and Zeke ran MSG it led to a decade of pathetic basketball due to huge miscalculations and poor judgment. Hard to guess their future but it is anything but a forgone conclusion that they're going to be dominate.
    Philly: No further ahead than the Raptors besides in the standings. They're probably going to have to get worse before they get better.
    NJ: Deron Williams makes them instantly better but what do they have around him? The days of buying your way to a championship seem to be almost over as the Owners continue to push for a hard cap and are willing to dominate the players in a lockout if need be. Billionaire owners have no edge over small time owners in a hard cap system. Just ask the World Champion Green Bay Packers about that one.

    The Raptors will lose a lot this season. The Raptors may lose a lot next season but not as much as this season. The season after that one though, if they stay the course, they should be back to a .500 team with one of the youngest rosters in the league.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Boston: Window is closing. Fast.
    NYK: Gonna be a solid regular season team and lose in the second round year after year. They have virtually zero cap to sign anyone and no center. Good luck with that.
    Nets: Deron was a great trade but it's gonna take a couple years to get the right pieces.
    Atlanta: see NYK
    Magic: Dwight will be gone soon.

    Like mango said, lets ride it out and see where we are in a couple years. I like our chances.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    first off, i wasn't trying to imply that the raptors had changed, but rather that every other team in the division has either changed or is in the process of changing for the better. the raptors are right back where they started when BC took over, but the rest of the atlantic is looking quite a bit stronger. something of a different outlook than before as we start THIS rebuild, no?

    BOS - say what you will about the impending age-related demise of the c**ts, but they're still bringing it...and as long as they have rondo, they have someone to at least build around. and hey, if the need arises, ainge can always pilfer an all-NBA calibre player from the wolves...

    NY - sure, it'll take a bit of time to integrate the new bodies, and there won't be a parade in manhattan this year, but they're certainly on the rise. just have to add some NBA quality depth & figure out how to get amare & melo to defend at a halfway respectable level...

    PHI - one of the hottest teams in the L over the last couple months...could mean something big, might be a blip, but they have young talent & vets that know how to play...and a coach who seems to be making a difference. are they a serious title contender? of course not...but they're a possible playoff team THIS YEAR which, all things considered, is a fairly impressive turnaround.

    NJ - ah, the nyets...so long to laughingstock status. if the DWill trade goes down (and all the pieces have yet to be sorted out), does that not put them into a position to rebuild quickly? i guess much depends on who they can put around him, and whether they can keep him...but you can't argue that that with him, their future just didn't become a whole lot brighter. super-duper-rich owner who seems like he knows what he's doing, new arena & move to brooklyn on the horizon...not to mention hump & smitch!
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    first off, i wasn't trying to imply that the raptors had changed, but rather that every other team in the division has either changed or is in the process of changing for the better. the raptors are right back where they started when BC took over, but the rest of the atlantic is looking quite a bit stronger. something of a different outlook than before as we start THIS rebuild, no?

    BOS - say what you will about the impending age-related demise of the c**ts, but they're still bringing it...and as long as they have rondo, they have someone to at least build around. and hey, if the need arises, ainge can always pilfer an all-NBA calibre player from the wolves...

    NY - sure, it'll take a bit of time to integrate the new bodies, and there won't be a parade in manhattan this year, but they're certainly on the rise. just have to add some NBA quality depth & figure out how to get amare & melo to defend at a halfway respectable level...

    PHI - one of the hottest teams in the L over the last couple months...could mean something big, might be a blip, but they have young talent & vets that know how to play...and a coach who seems to be making a difference. are they a serious title contender? of course not...but they're a possible playoff team THIS YEAR which, all things considered, is a fairly impressive turnaround.

    NJ - ah, the nyets...so long to laughingstock status. if the DWill trade goes down (and all the pieces have yet to be sorted out), does that not put them into a position to rebuild quickly? i guess much depends on who they can put around him, and whether they can keep him...but you can't argue that that with him, their future just didn't become a whole lot brighter. super-duper-rich owner who seems like he knows what he's doing, new arena & move to brooklyn on the horizon...not to mention hump & smitch!
    If you are talking about today, I agree. A couple of seasons down the road, I disagree.

    No one knows what the new CBA will bring so it is all speculation until that time.

    BOS are done in 2 seasons.
    PHI have reached potential, IMO, as team currently is. Also, Collins has a pretty good history of quick improvements followed by flat-lining thereafter.
    NJ no doubt have a great PG. Lopez is a finese C. Draft picks are gone now as is Favors.
    NYK have 2 great players, an aging Billups who will reportedly be getting his $14M next season, and no depth/little draft picks for next 3 seasons.

    The Raps are nearly 8 months in to a rebuild with a high draft pick coming (fingers crossed on who it is).

    While it might make the next 2 months very difficult to endure, I hope Barbosa or Calderon are traded. Time for the young players to play to find out who should be here in teh future and who should be sent packing.

  19. #19
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    BOS - say what you will about the impending age-related demise of the c**ts, but they're still bringing it...and as long as they have rondo, they have someone to at least build around. and hey, if the need arises, ainge can always pilfer an all-NBA calibre player from the wolves...
    Maybe your memory is cloudy, I don't know but the Celtics stunk for years while they rebuilt the team while stockpiling young prospects. Ainge almost lost his job before he pulled off a miracle trade by being in the right place at the right time. That team is old. Look at the big picture. Look at the age when bigs and guards fall off. It's about to happen unless they're special and defy the odds. Not likely. When it happens then Ainge has done nothing to suggest that he can rebuild a team through the draft. He failed at that and managed to take advantage of a team who's star demanded a trade and another team who was trying to cut cap to make way for a rising star. KG wasn't willing to play there unless Ray Allen was on board. The chances of that going down again are slim, no? Also consider Perkins is a FA and there will be lots of teams looking to pay him. He may be hard to keep.

    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    NY - sure, it'll take a bit of time to integrate the new bodies, and there won't be a parade in manhattan this year, but they're certainly on the rise. just have to add some NBA quality depth & figure out how to get amare & melo to defend at a halfway respectable level...
    Melo and Amare are great offensive weapons but all the dominate teams in the league are excellent on defense. Neither of these guys are good on defense and their coach can't coach defense. I expect a Suns type product. Exciting ball games that ends in a 1st or 2nd round exit more years than not. That's something to respect but not fear.

    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    PHI - one of the hottest teams in the L over the last couple months...could mean something big, might be a blip, but they have young talent & vets that know how to play...and a coach who seems to be making a difference. are they a serious title contender? of course not...but they're a possible playoff team THIS YEAR which, all things considered, is a fairly impressive turnaround.
    Contrary to what some people are saying Brand is not back. They're still trying to move Iggy. Both these guys aren't in the long term plans. Turner has been a complete let down so far. Their future position doesn't look as good as the Raptors'. The 76ers need to shed two big contracts before they can move forward where as the Raptors can move forward now with the youth and not have to worry about cap crushing contracts in what's probably going to be a hard cap system next season.

    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    NJ - ah, the nyets...so long to laughingstock status. if the DWill trade goes down (and all the pieces have yet to be sorted out), does that not put them into a position to rebuild quickly? i guess much depends on who they can put around him, and whether they can keep him...but you can't argue that that with him, their future just didn't become a whole lot brighter. super-duper-rich owner who seems like he knows what he's doing, new arena & move to brooklyn on the horizon...not to mention hump & smitch!
    In a hard cap system it doesn't matter if you have a billionaire owner or a ownership group of thousands. It doesn't matter. Spending doesn't decide success in such a system and so the Owner card means nothing. Williams couldn't get a long with Coach Sloan... What does that tell you about the prospect of him leading that team to greatness? It's not a vote of confidence at least. Williams is still a huge boost but they gave up Favors in the process and they don't have a first rounder this year and gave up another the following year? How do they continue to build? Not through the draft unless teams want to sell them picks and they're buying. In a hardcap system good draft picks have increased value because you can get impact players, like Ed Davis, at a discount. Also keep in mind that D-Will rises the projected cap number for next season by over $4M and if the cap shrinks then they have little to spend to grow via free agency. Also Humphries is going to be looking for a pay raise. If they want to keep him then suddenly their cap space shrinks to virtually nothing.

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    Half the owners embrace the new paradigm of clustering allstars and paying over the tax and to some extent the NBA loves it because lets face it, Andrew Bogut and Kevin Love jersey's don't exactly pay the bills and networks aren't shelling out Billions for epic Sacramento vs. TO tilts. I don't think it's a lock for the new CBA to usher in parity. There are is the Gilbert camp and the Kupchack camp.

    Yes Boston is getting old, but stars will continue to want to play there (bc it's boston)...they'll just recycle allstar bodies to replace the old ones.

    Yes Williams doesn't put NJ anywhere close, but it's way easier to build a bench than build an allstar...they are trending in the right direction.

    NYK has the cap space for Paul...he will end up in New York.

    Philly is miles ahead of TO...nice mix of young, developing talent and productive vets...

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