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Thread: Wow...that happened quickly.

  1. #21
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote mattscottnelson wrote: View Post
    Yes Boston is getting old, but stars will continue to want to play there (bc it's boston)...they'll just recycle allstar bodies to replace the old ones.
    How can you say that as a matter of fact? When has Ainge ever proven he can do that? That team was in turmoil for years during a failed rebuild. He almost got canned. People seem to forget the Danny Ainge of pre- KG & Ray. He can't replicate that again unless a star demands a trade and another team wants to give away a star to cut cap... And the Celtics just happen to have like five years worth of prospects just lying around. Not to mention we're probably entering a hard cap system and that makes things more difficult to pull off.

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    The Celtics biological clock is ticking loud but they will find away to reboot quicker than the others.
    NYK has names but no depth and they'll likely float around 48-52 wins a season.
    Philadelphia is progressing this year but can they keep building on that? This year's Milwaukee could easily be next year's Milwaukee too.
    NJ still has a ways to go and may have trouble attracting talent and keeping it.
    Patience people, patience.

  3. #23
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sillydebate wrote: View Post
    The Celtics biological clock is ticking loud but they will find away to reboot quicker than the others.
    How?

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    uhm... the deathstar was blown up.... TWICE... and had the fatal flaw of having an exterior hole that could be shot into by an xw-ing fighter and destroy it... and then the second time around, the hole was even more MASSIVE.. massive enough to fly the millenium falcon into

    it took a friggin glacier to take down the titanic

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Rookie moe_shuttlesworth's Avatar
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    Default Depressing Raptors will stay at the bottom, Utah teaching us how to ditch an All-Star

    Nets get d-will, knicks get melo. celtics stay winning. sixers are an inch better

    WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO!! IF ONLY WE COULDVE BEEN LIKE UTAH.
    YOU SHIPPED YOUR ALL STAR PG FOR 2 FIRST ROUND PICKS MOST LIKELY LOTTERY
    AND YOU GET FAVORS AND HARRIS.

    I BET YOU BC FEELS STUPID. HE HELD ON TO THE HOPE OF BOSH STAYING WITH A NON PLAYOFF TEAM, WHEN UTAH SHIPPED THERE BEST PLAYER WHILE IN THE PLAYOFFS.

    WE NEED A CULTURE CHANGE ASAP

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    uhm... the deathstar was blown up.... TWICE... and had the fatal flaw of having an exterior hole that could be shot into by an xw-ing fighter and destroy it... and then the second time around, the hole was even more MASSIVE.. massive enough to fly the millenium falcon into

    it took a friggin glacier to take down the titanic
    ahhhhh... thread merging makes this post nonsensical... mods, you failed me.

  7. #27
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    C**tics - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
    Knicks - Amare, 'Melo
    Nets - Lopez, DWill
    Philly - Iggy, Jrue, Brand, Turner, Williams
    Raptors - DeRozan, Bargnani


    Nets aren't done yet either, those are easily four playoff teams, add to it the Bulls, Heat, Magic and then you have every other team fighting for one playoff spot. It doesn't look good.

  8. #28
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote moe_shuttlesworth wrote: View Post
    Nets get d-will, knicks get melo. celtics stay winning. sixers are an inch better

    WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO!! IF ONLY WE COULDVE BEEN LIKE UTAH.
    YOU SHIPPED YOUR ALL STAR PG FOR 2 FIRST ROUND PICKS MOST LIKELY LOTTERY
    AND YOU GET FAVORS AND HARRIS.

    I BET YOU BC FEELS STUPID. HE HELD ON TO THE HOPE OF BOSH STAYING WITH A NON PLAYOFF TEAM, WHEN UTAH SHIPPED THERE BEST PLAYER WHILE IN THE PLAYOFFS.

    WE NEED A CULTURE CHANGE ASAP
    Can you please not type in caps?

    As for the Utah trade? Williams pretty much forced Sloan out of coaching. Did you really think he was going to stick around in Utah? I mean, really, it's Utah. The writing was on the wall. Plus they got a sweetheart of a deal. A very good PG, a future all-star PF and what could be 2 lottery picks - why wouldn't they do that deal? Did Bosh give an indication that he'd leave? No. At least Carmelo had the balls to tell his franchise that he wasn't really going to re-up. They learned from our and Cleveland's mistakes. Speaking of Cleveland, how come no one is harping on Danny Ferry saying that he should have traded Lebron at last year;s deadline? I mean, he should have known Lebron was going to leave. He could have got a ridiculous package for James. Instead, they're picking up all of our re-treads.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Maybe your memory is cloudy, I don't know but the Celtics stunk for years while they rebuilt the team while stockpiling young prospects. Ainge almost lost his job before he pulled off a miracle trade by being in the right place at the right time. That team is old. Look at the big picture. Look at the age when bigs and guards fall off. It's about to happen unless they're special and defy the odds. Not likely. When it happens then Ainge has done nothing to suggest that he can rebuild a team through the draft. He failed at that and managed to take advantage of a team who's star demanded a trade and another team who was trying to cut cap to make way for a rising star. KG wasn't willing to play there unless Ray Allen was on board. The chances of that going down again are slim, no? Also consider Perkins is a FA and there will be lots of teams looking to pay him. He may be hard to keep.



    Melo and Amare are great offensive weapons but all the dominate teams in the league are excellent on defense. Neither of these guys are good on defense and their coach can't coach defense. I expect a Suns type product. Exciting ball games that ends in a 1st or 2nd round exit more years than not. That's something to respect but not fear.



    Contrary to what some people are saying Brand is not back. They're still trying to move Iggy. Both these guys aren't in the long term plans. Turner has been a complete let down so far. Their future position doesn't look as good as the Raptors'. The 76ers need to shed two big contracts before they can move forward where as the Raptors can move forward now with the youth and not have to worry about cap crushing contracts in what's probably going to be a hard cap system next season.



    In a hard cap system it doesn't matter if you have a billionaire owner or a ownership group of thousands. It doesn't matter. Spending doesn't decide success in such a system and so the Owner card means nothing. Williams couldn't get a long with Coach Sloan... What does that tell you about the prospect of him leading that team to greatness? It's not a vote of confidence at least. Williams is still a huge boost but they gave up Favors in the process and they don't have a first rounder this year and gave up another the following year? How do they continue to build? Not through the draft unless teams want to sell them picks and they're buying. In a hardcap system good draft picks have increased value because you can get impact players, like Ed Davis, at a discount. Also keep in mind that D-Will rises the projected cap number for next season by over $4M and if the cap shrinks then they have little to spend to grow via free agency. Also Humphries is going to be looking for a pay raise. If they want to keep him then suddenly their cap space shrinks to virtually nothing.
    dude...i'm not arguing that any of these teams are (necessarily) title contenders after this season, certainly not as presently constructed. but you seem to be taking an extremely pessismist perspective with each team, and perhaps assuming (for what reason, i'm unsure) that the potential of the raptors young players and/or the abilities of raptor management put them in a better position to build a contending team over these other teams. even if going forward none of the other atlantic div. teams are *serious* title contenders, they will ALL BE AT LEAST DECENT TEAMS. even if philly never gets better than a .500 team, for example, that's still a solid team that the raps have to play 4x/yr. 16 games out of 82 (nearly 20%) are against division opponents, and the raps have, at least in my eyes, the dimmest immediate future (i.e. ~4 years out) of all 5 teams.

    FWIW, the c**ts didn't stink 'for years.' they were a playoff team as late as '05 (not that they had any success, but that's a different argument), then had a couple down years - some would argue they tanked to get durant - when that failed, they used the assets they'd drafted to land KG. was it luck? sure. good timing? of course. fortuitous to be dealing with an old buddy? why not. so, they missed the playoffs a whopping TWO seasons and then...oh right, won it all. and yes, some members of the core are aging, but like i said, having a rondo on your roster helps, since he's argubly the best of the 'big-4' right now anyway.

    oh, and brand has been playing much much much better of late. is he back? well, it's doubtful he ever gets back to being the brand he was with the clips, but he's certainly doing his part to earn his cheque. and no, iggy isn't on the block, at least from what i've heard. he's not untradeable, but he's not being shopped. and turner? i guess i'm just higher on his upside than most. and i luuuuuv me some holliday.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    C**tics - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
    Knicks - Amare, 'Melo
    Nets - Lopez, DWill
    Philly - Iggy, Jrue, Brand, Turner, Williams
    Raptors - DeRozan, Bargnani


    Nets aren't done yet either, those are easily four playoff teams, add to it the Bulls, Heat, Magic and then you have every other team fighting for one playoff spot. It doesn't look good.
    fear not, arse...according to some, all of these teams are either fatally flawed or about to be put to pasture, or both, or something, or nothing.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    fear not, arse...according to some, all of these teams are either fatally flawed or about to be put to pasture, or both, or something, or nothing.
    just like the deathstar.

  12. #32
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    How?
    bc players want to be a part of the legacy.

  13. #33
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    I'm with the original poster. It looks grim for the raps for far longer than 3 years.

    DD might turn into a consistent scorer and davis into a respectable starting 4, or it might turn out that they are just standout players on a poor team.
    Bargs is a talent and an albatross.
    Jose is 30. Who replaces him in 3 years? A draft pick? How long does it take a young pg to figure the NBA out? Please don't mention Bayless.

    And even if we pulled a VC from the upcoming (weak) draft it would take at least 3 years to get him to the point where he's winning games for us. This might make us a .500 team, except for our very tough division.

    Plus we have BC at the helm - a guy who buys his 'pieces' at Costco.

    How do you extract optimism from this situation? Because we have cap space? Because some of our players are improving? We've been a lousy team for most of our history, yet I see the Leaf refrain of 'maybe next year' repeated here endlessly.

    Boston is going to be competitive, if not elite, for the next 3 years. NY has two top-10 players. Championships have been won with that formula. NJ is going to draft just before or after us and already have more talent. Philly? Meh, I'm not so sure about that team long-term, but they are better than us in the short-to-mid term.

    And remember folks, these teams don't have to win championships or even go far in the playoffs. They merely have to beat us.

    I love the Raptors, but purple-coloured glasses just give me a headache.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote Copywryter wrote: View Post
    I'm with the original poster. It looks grim for the raps for far longer than 3 years.

    DD might turn into a consistent scorer and davis into a respectable starting 4, or it might turn out that they are just standout players on a poor team.
    Bargs is a talent and an albatross.
    Jose is 30. Who replaces him in 3 years? A draft pick? How long does it take a young pg to figure the NBA out? Please don't mention Bayless.

    And even if we pulled a VC from the upcoming (weak) draft it would take at least 3 years to get him to the point where he's winning games for us. This might make us a .500 team, except for our very tough division.

    Plus we have BC at the helm - a guy who buys his 'pieces' at Costco.

    How do you extract optimism from this situation? Because we have cap space? Because some of our players are improving? We've been a lousy team for most of our history, yet I see the Leaf refrain of 'maybe next year' repeated here endlessly.

    Boston is going to be competitive, if not elite, for the next 3 years. NY has two top-10 players. Championships have been won with that formula. NJ is going to draft just before or after us and already have more talent. Philly? Meh, I'm not so sure about that team long-term, but they are better than us in the short-to-mid term.

    And remember folks, these teams don't have to win championships or even go far in the playoffs. They merely have to beat us.

    I love the Raptors, but purple-coloured glasses just give me a headache.
    HEY! i will NOT have you come on here & besmirch Costco!
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    C**tics - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
    Knicks - Amare, 'Melo
    Nets - Lopez, DWill
    Philly - Iggy, Jrue, Brand, Turner, Williams
    Raptors - DeRozan, Bargnani


    Nets aren't done yet either, those are easily four playoff teams, add to it the Bulls, Heat, Magic and then you have every other team fighting for one playoff spot. It doesn't look good.
    If we are discussing the here and now, valid points above.

    If we are discussing the future, as in 2 seasons time, I disagree with the above.

    BOS - on last legs if not dismantled.

    NYK - a lot of pieces to add to become more than a 1st/2nd round team. Same issue there as Toronto currently faces - adding defensive pieces as scoring is not a problem.

    NJ - Williams lustre certainly has faded of late. No doubt the talent is one of the best at PG in the league. Lopez is averaging under 6 rebs per game. They have 7M tied up in Outlaw - worse than Calderon, IMO, as Calderon does actually produce. Few draft picks remaining, little young talent, a star-PG who may very well leave after next season.

    PHI - Brand is below his career averages and 32 in less than a month with $35M owed over the next 2 seasons, Williams is a solid back up PG paid 5M per season, AI is not worth his contract and it only gets worse, Turner is a 22 year old rookie who is struggling but will most likely improve, Young is a free agent this year and they have $54M tied up in their team already for next year. My opinion is they are right where they are going to be.

    As for TOR, they have 2 players who are looking like legit 20ppg scorers. They have 2 PF's who look able to put up a double/double on a nightly basis. They have young players who might not be stars, all-stars, or even starters but they have talent as the team is quickly filling up with recent first round picks. They have a high draft pick coming (which is going to be extremely crucial for the near future) and some cap space. Even Chuck agreed that TOR has a bright future and BC has done some good things up there of late - notwithstanding the last 2 years.

    Those who continue to rightfully go on about defense, look at the acquisitions of late - there is a continuing trend of trying to find athletic players who have shown ability on the defensive end.

    This is not meant to be a pro-BC post or a purple-colored glasses response, the reality is for a team that just started a significant rebuild, progress is being made (salaries moved out, young players/reclaimation projects brought in, high draft pick coming, cap space available). Losing the commitment of Calderon/Barbosa for next season (and season after for Calderon) and adding another draft pick would certainly give me more confidence. Hopefully the Raps have a busy draft day and people see the forest through the trees.

  16. #36
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    C**tics - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
    Knicks - Amare, 'Melo
    Nets - Lopez, DWill
    Philly - Iggy, Jrue, Brand, Turner, Williams
    Raptors - DeRozan, Bargnani


    Nets aren't done yet either, those are easily four playoff teams, add to it the Bulls, Heat, Magic and then you have every other team fighting for one playoff spot. It doesn't look good.
    Thank you Arsenalist for being realistic - I don't think we will be out of the basement of the suddenly strong from laughable Atlantic Division any time soon just my 2 cents. BC even getting that extension makes us being in the basement a done deal imo.

  17. #37
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    C**tics - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
    Knicks - Amare, 'Melo
    Nets - Lopez, DWill
    Philly - Iggy, Jrue, Brand, Turner, Williams
    Raptors - DeRozan, Bargnani


    Nets aren't done yet either, those are easily four playoff teams, add to it the Bulls, Heat, Magic and then you have every other team fighting for one playoff spot. It doesn't look good.
    Add to that the Coaches and all the above teams have advantage over us in terms of who is Coaching them.

    With the unfocused GM style of BC and the type of long term contracts that he gives out to a barely role players in this league, the future is NOT LOOKING too bright.

    I think it will be atleast another 4-5 years ( with the current GM and Coach) that we will make the play off.

  18. #38
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote mattscottnelson wrote: View Post
    bc players want to be a part of the legacy.
    Where were these players for virtually two decades between the Larry Bird era and the KG/Pierce/Allen/Rondo era? Players want to play there now because the team is loaded with stars. When those stars leave the appeal will again leave. How are they going to get the players if they have no trade assets and a hard cap(no MLE)? Last time around they got them through prospects they collected over years of being pathetic. All I'm saying is that they for sure are going to take a step back soon. A big step back. After Larry Bird left they took nearly a couple decades to get back to the elite level.

  19. #39
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    C**tics - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
    Knicks - Amare, 'Melo
    Nets - Lopez, DWill
    Philly - Iggy, Jrue, Brand, Turner, Williams
    Raptors - DeRozan, Bargnani


    Nets aren't done yet either, those are easily four playoff teams, add to it the Bulls, Heat, Magic and then you have every other team fighting for one playoff spot. It doesn't look good.
    I disagree these are 'Easily Playoff teams'. DWill and Lopez is nothing. If they add some real good pieces, then maybe, but not right now. Lopez is softer than a stick of butter thats been left out for an hour. Used to be very high on him. Not anymore.

    And Philly has not shown, in my opinion, the ability to be 'Easily' a playoff team. They are SO inconsistent and have not proven to be any better than the Raps+ a good pick.

    Though I do agree the East has gone from 'Least' to 'Beast'.

  20. #40
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If we are discussing the here and now, valid points above.

    If we are discussing the future, as in 2 seasons time, I disagree with the above.

    BOS - on last legs if not dismantled.

    NYK - a lot of pieces to add to become more than a 1st/2nd round team. Same issue there as Toronto currently faces - adding defensive pieces as scoring is not a problem.

    NJ - Williams lustre certainly has faded of late. No doubt the talent is one of the best at PG in the league. Lopez is averaging under 6 rebs per game. They have 7M tied up in Outlaw - worse than Calderon, IMO, as Calderon does actually produce. Few draft picks remaining, little young talent, a star-PG who may very well leave after next season.

    PHI - Brand is below his career averages and 32 in less than a month with $35M owed over the next 2 seasons, Williams is a solid back up PG paid 5M per season, AI is not worth his contract and it only gets worse, Turner is a 22 year old rookie who is struggling but will most likely improve, Young is a free agent this year and they have $54M tied up in their team already for next year. My opinion is they are right where they are going to be.

    As for TOR, they have 2 players who are looking like legit 20ppg scorers. They have 2 PF's who look able to put up a double/double on a nightly basis. They have young players who might not be stars, all-stars, or even starters but they have talent as the team is quickly filling up with recent first round picks. They have a high draft pick coming (which is going to be extremely crucial for the near future) and some cap space. Even Chuck agreed that TOR has a bright future and BC has done some good things up there of late - notwithstanding the last 2 years.

    Those who continue to rightfully go on about defense, look at the acquisitions of late - there is a continuing trend of trying to find athletic players who have shown ability on the defensive end.

    This is not meant to be a pro-BC post or a purple-colored glasses response, the reality is for a team that just started a significant rebuild, progress is being made (salaries moved out, young players/reclaimation projects brought in, high draft pick coming, cap space available). Losing the commitment of Calderon/Barbosa for next season (and season after for Calderon) and adding another draft pick would certainly give me more confidence. Hopefully the Raps have a busy draft day and people see the forest through the trees.
    have you seen jrue holiday play ?

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