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Thread: James Johnson Discussion

  1. #401
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Jamario Moon's first season is eerily similar to James Johnson.

    J.Moon (07-08)
    8.5 pts/.485% - 6.2 rebs - 1.2 asts - 1.4 blks - 1.0 stls

    J. Johnson
    8.7 pts/.492% - 5.2 rebs - 2.5 asts - 1.4 blks - 1.1 stls


    Basically, that's what JJ and J. Moon are. "Serviceable" 2nd-3rd tier wings, which is also one of the most common commodities to find in the NBA, especially recycled (see: Dorell Wright). The amount of fawning over JJ is probably more of an indication of the tremendous lack of talent on this year's Raptors squad, rather than any slight against JJ himself. Having said that, I do like his overall game, and would be pleasantly surprised and thrilled if he can take it to another level. He's decent bench player and a role player on a team with a couple of all-stars.
    James Johnson's basketball IQ is higher and I think he's tougher than Moon. Moon avoided contact, a lot of the time, which was the big knock on him. He had the athleticism to be better, but didn't like to go to the hoop. I think it's a good comparison, but I think Johnson is the guy Moon should have tried to be.
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  2. #402
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    Here are the first year stats of a guy who I think Johnson should pattern his game after. They had similar strengths and weaknesses at the same point in their careers.

    20.9 mpg .463 fg% .174 3p% 3.8 rpg 2.1 apg 1.2 spg 0.7 bpg 7.9 ppg

    Here are Johnson's this year, which in many ways is his rookie season:

    19.2 mpg .466 fg% .217 3p% 3.7 rpg 2.0 apg 0.9 spg 1.1 bpg 6.4 ppg

    As you see the numbers are very similar, and as I said their games were somewhat similar at the same stage.

    Anyone care to guess who the first person is? One clue. He went on to appear in 7 All-Star games and appeared on more than a few All Defensive and All NBA teams.

    (For those of you jumping to conclusions, NO I AM NOT SAYING THAT JOHNSON IS THE NEXT ____)
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  3. #403
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Here are the first year stats of a guy who I think Johnson should pattern his game after. They had similar strengths and weaknesses at the same point in their careers.

    20.9 mpg .463 fg% .174 3p% 3.8 rpg 2.1 apg 1.2 spg 0.7 bpg 7.9 ppg

    Here are Johnson's this year, which in many ways is his rookie season:

    19.2 mpg .466 fg% .217 3p% 3.7 rpg 2.0 apg 0.9 spg 1.1 bpg 6.4 ppg

    As you see the numbers are very similar, and as I said their games were somewhat similar at the same stage.

    Anyone care to guess who the first person is? One clue. He went on to appear in 7 All-Star games and appeared on more than a few All Defensive and All NBA teams.

    (For those of you jumping to conclusions, NO I AM NOT SAYING THAT JOHNSON IS THE NEXT ____)
    Pippen?

  4. #404
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Pippen?
    Wow. I thought it would be a little more difficult than that. That's obviously right.

    Now, I don't think James Johnson has the potential to be Scottie Pippen, but I think he really needs to look at Scottie's game because their skills are so similar. Pippen had an awful jumpshot coming into the league, but became a very good one. Johnson has the ability to become a very good player, if he works on his weaknesses and doesn't try to do too much. Johnson's strength is his ability to do a bit of everything. He just needs to work on those things he doesn't do all that well, at the moment.
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  5. #405
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    I don't like the Jamario Moon comparisons for two reasons:

    The first is that Moon was already something like 27 or 28 when he got his contract with the Raps. Not only had he spent his prime development years playing against non-NBA players, but I think he was one of those guys who got his contract, then checked out. I never saw in him any kind of drive to get better, no real competitiveness, nor high understanding of the NBA. Probably why it took him so long to get in the league, and why he now plays for the Cavs. J.Johnson is a tough mother lover. A fighter and competitor. That kind of disposition only helps you to get better.

    The second is that I hate Jamario Moon (as a player).

    Also, it just occurred to me that the Raps seem to have a top-notch shooting coach (English? I can't remember). Derozan has shown crazy improvement. Ditto for Calderon. Amir Johnson is now a somewhat solid mid-range shooter. Ed Davis was awful just months ago, but now is starting to be able to knock down the J. It's not crazy to think that J.Johnson can become a decent shooter. Even developing the ability to consistently knock down the spot up 3.

  6. #406
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Wow. I thought it would be a little more difficult than that. That's obviously right.

    Now, I don't think James Johnson has the potential to be Scottie Pippen, but I think he really needs to look at Scottie's game because their skills are so similar. Pippen had an awful jumpshot coming into the league, but became a very good one. Johnson has the ability to become a very good player, if he works on his weaknesses and doesn't try to do too much. Johnson's strength is his ability to do a bit of everything. He just needs to work on those things he doesn't do all that well, at the moment.
    SKills and games might be similar but their body types were polar opposites coming in to the league: Pippen = string bean, Johnson = tree trunk.

  7. #407
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    "Serviceable" 2nd-3rd tier wings, which is also one of the most common commodities to find in the NBA, especially recycled (see: Dorell Wright). The amount of fawning over JJ is probably more of an indication of the tremendous lack of talent on this year's Raptors squad, rather than any slight against JJ himself. Having said that, I do like his overall game, and would be pleasantly surprised and thrilled if he can take it to another level. He's decent bench player and a role player on a team with a couple of all-stars.
    I'm not sure about the Moon comparison. Moon was not tough. James Johnson is as tough as they come on the basketball court in my opinion. It must inspire super confidence to know you could kick anyone's ass at any time. That won't make you a great basketball player but it will allow you to play tough and rugged without worrying about intimidation from an opponent.

    I do agree with the quoted section above. JJ, as he is right now, is not the SF of the future, in my opinion. He may continue to develop - and I hope he does - but he might be better served coming off the bench.

  8. #408
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Here are the first year stats of a guy who I think Johnson should pattern his game after. They had similar strengths and weaknesses at the same point in their careers.

    20.9 mpg .463 fg% .174 3p% 3.8 rpg 2.1 apg 1.2 spg 0.7 bpg 7.9 ppg

    Here are Johnson's this year, which in many ways is his rookie season:

    19.2 mpg .466 fg% .217 3p% 3.7 rpg 2.0 apg 0.9 spg 1.1 bpg 6.4 ppg

    As you see the numbers are very similar, and as I said their games were somewhat similar at the same stage.

    Anyone care to guess who the first person is? One clue. He went on to appear in 7 All-Star games and appeared on more than a few All Defensive and All NBA teams.

    (For those of you jumping to conclusions, NO I AM NOT SAYING THAT JOHNSON IS THE NEXT ____)
    I've been wondering the last day or two if BC is looking to pattern JJ after another one of his former players:

    Compare Johnson's 2nd year bolded stats above with this stat line from the second year of another guy:

    66GP 25GS 18.2MPG .422FG% .1803P% .740FT% 2.6REB 2.3AST 0.6STL 0.3BLK 1.3TO 4.8PPG

    Any guesses?

  9. #409
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've been wondering the last day or two if BC is looking to pattern JJ after another one of his former players:

    Compare Johnson's 2nd year bolded stats above with this stat line from the second year of another guy:

    66GP 25GS 18.2MPG .422FG% .1803P% .740FT% 2.6REB 2.3AST 0.6STL 0.3BLK 1.3TO 4.8PPG

    Any guesses?
    Diaw? Hah, I wonder.
    Dude was a joke with Atlanta.

    To this day I am wondering how/if BC actually knew the type of player he was getting in Diaw.

  10. #410
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    Not just Diaw. Add in guys like Joe Johnson, Raja Bell and Anthony Parker. I'm sure he never knew how good they could be but he knew they all had talent and potential and had not been properly used on their former teams.

  11. #411
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    [J.Johnson] may continue to develop - and I hope he does - but he might be better served coming off the bench.
    He's put up decent numbers for a second year player, particularly considering he didn't really play this year at all. In terms of total games played, he's barely out of his rookie season. If you hope he continues to develop and improve, why would you want him stuck on the bench? Putting him back on the bench is a surefire way to ensure he doesn't improve as much as he might be capable.

    I see no reason at all to view Johnson as a "bench" player. Just because he doesn't put up 15 ppg doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to start. Don't just look at the box score: I posted earlier that, since he's been on the Raptors, his opponent's PER is 13.9. That's elite level defense. Clearly starter quality.
    Last edited by jeff_hostetler; Mon Apr 4th, 2011 at 02:14 PM.

  12. #412
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    Just to compare that 13.9 opponent's PER:

    Gerald Wallace: 14.1
    Josh Smith: 17.7
    Ron Artest: 14.4

    All three are starters for playoff teams, and considered to be one of the league's absolute best defenders. Not only does J.Johnson do a better job guarding his man than those three - who are all veterans - but he does so surrounded by some of the league's worst defenders (Calderon, Derozan, Bargnani). Put him next to Al Horford or Kobe Bryant, or play him on a team that plays good collective defense and I assure you that number is coming down even further.
    Last edited by jeff_hostetler; Mon Apr 4th, 2011 at 02:26 PM.

  13. #413
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Diaw? Hah, I wonder.
    Dude was a joke with Atlanta.

    To this day I am wondering how/if BC actually knew the type of player he was getting in Diaw.
    You are correct sir!

  14. #414
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Not just Diaw. Add in guys like Joe Johnson, Raja Bell and Anthony Parker. I'm sure he never knew how good they could be but he knew they all had talent and potential and had not been properly used on their former teams.
    When it comes to finding talented players via draft or sitting on the pine in the NBA, BC is one of the best, imo.

    BC is one of the worst when it comes to giving out contracts though, imo.

  15. #415
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    He's put up decent numbers for a second year player, particularly considering he didn't really play this year at all. In terms of total games played, he's barely out of his rookie season. If you hope he continues to develop and improve, why would you want him stuck on the bench? Putting him back on the bench is a surefire way to ensure he doesn't improve as much as he might be capable.

    I see no reason at all to view Johnson as a "bench" player. Just because he doesn't put up 15 ppg doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to start. Don't just look at the box score: I posted earlier that, since he's been on the Raptors, his opponent's PER is 13.9. That's elite level defense. Clearly starter quality.
    Very good post.

    My thoughts were along the lines of letting him play another year at SF and see how that goes. Where he has 2 years left on his rookie deal they could let him start next year and decide if they should upgrade at SF via draft or free agency.

    Teams need depth. I think to when Amar'e missed pretty much the whole year for the Suns, Diaw started in his place, and they still won 54 games. Another consideration is match ups.

  16. #416
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Just to compare that 13.9 opponent's PER:

    Gerald Wallace: 14.1
    Josh Smith: 17.7
    Ron Artest: 14.4

    All three are starters for playoff teams, and considered to be one of the league's absolute best defenders. Not only does J.Johnson do a better job guarding his man than those three - who are all veterans - but he does so surrounded by some of the league's worst defenders (Calderon, Derozan, Bargnani). Put him next to Al Horford or Kobe Bryant, or play him on a team that plays good collective defense and I assure you that number is coming down even further.
    Great post and very good company.

  17. #417
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    When it comes to finding talented players via draft or sitting on the pine in the NBA, BC is one of the best, imo.

    BC is one of the worst when it comes to giving out contracts though, imo.
    Yeah, you can never accuse him for an unwillingness to pay players.

  18. #418
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Just to compare that 13.9 opponent's PER:

    Gerald Wallace: 14.1
    Josh Smith: 17.7
    Ron Artest: 14.4

    All three are starters for playoff teams, and considered to be one of the league's absolute best defenders. Not only does J.Johnson do a better job guarding his man than those three - who are all veterans - but he does so surrounded by some of the league's worst defenders (Calderon, Derozan, Bargnani). Put him next to Al Horford or Kobe Bryant, or play him on a team that plays good collective defense and I assure you that number is coming down even further.
    Wow. That's pretty good. He still has to work on consistency and to stop making silly mistakes, on that end (well both ends, really), but he's looking pretty good, at the moment.
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  19. #419
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    He's put up decent numbers for a second year player, particularly considering he didn't really play this year at all. In terms of total games played, he's barely out of his rookie season. If you hope he continues to develop and improve, why would you want him stuck on the bench? Putting him back on the bench is a surefire way to ensure he doesn't improve as much as he might be capable.

    I see no reason at all to view Johnson as a "bench" player. Just because he doesn't put up 15 ppg doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to start. Don't just look at the box score: I posted earlier that, since he's been on the Raptors, his opponent's PER is 13.9. That's elite level defense. Clearly starter quality.
    Nice post. Fully agree.
    Nice find with that Opponents PER as well. Was wondering how he stacked up.

  20. #420
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    My thoughts were along the lines of letting him play another year at SF and see how that goes. Where he has 2 years left on his rookie deal they could let him start next year and decide if they should upgrade at SF via draft or free agency.
    Where he suffers in comparison to those other three players is in his ability to score. They all put up about 6-8ppg more than him. But that should come with time, and he doesn't even have to become above-average in this department to still be effective. If he shows no improvement at all over the course of another season, then yeah, you might want to think about what you need out of your SF (maybe moving him to the bench in favour of Kleiza).

    But if Derozan continues to develop, and becomes a 20ppg scorer (or something close); Bayless takes over the starting PG spot and becomes a 15ppg scorer; if ED can average 10+; if Kleiza comes back from injury fully able to play like he did before he got hurt and they retain Barbosa, then there would really be no need to depend on J.Johnson for points. Given all the tremendous scorers at the SF position these days, having a lockdown defender there to neutralize them is a significant bonus. Particularly to a young and developing team who have players who still need to focus on improving their core skills.

    The way I see it, if a defender can get their man to score less than their average, I consider those saved points equally as valuable as if the defender had scored them himself on offense. That is, if his opponent scores 5 less than he usually does, that's good for 5 points in the defender's PPG. Or something like that.

    If I had to pick a player I thought J.Johnson should mould his game after - realistically speaking - in all honesty I'd probably say Hedo Turkoglu. He's already got the basic ability to act as a point-forward, and can slash. If he made slight improvements in his handle, and focused on learning to play as a point-forward (including adding the ability to hit the pull-up 3), in combination with his elite defense, he'd be straight up awesome.

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