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Thread: Worst to Best

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    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    Default Worst to Best

    So there was another thread started yesterday or the day before about our atlantic division and compared everyone in it. I don't want to do that again, but I think it's going to get worse for the raptors moving forward.

    Today the Nets acquired Deron Williams. That doesn't mean everything because they gave up a bit to get him, but it does mean that it's going to be easier for the Nets to get more talent to come over there in free agency.

    This puts a lot more pressure on Bryan Colangelo. His team is now competing in a much tougher division and conference than it was when he was made GM of the team. What do they do to move forward? Well they picked up Mr. Johnson from the bulls. I'm not convinced that makes us better or worse but I do like it. There appears to be a realization that the team isn't going to be great for a couple of years and it's a good time to pick up young talent and see if you've found a diamond in the rough. Bayless, Johnson, Ajinca, Weems, and Juju are all part of that.

    I'm not going to pretend I'm a professional and make guesses or demands about what the team should do. It's a hard business that has a lot more duds than stars. What's great about what we're doing is that we're developing young guys who have arguably made huge strides this season and who are going to be moving forward with the organization. We've got financial freedom and can take a look at free agents in seasons to come.

    If Colangelo's plan is going to work then we have to see some consistency's in the organization. The tool used to promote improvement thus far in the organization have all been political moves. Hire and fire both our GM's and our coaches. We have good one's right now. They know their stuff and work hard to try to make the team better. If the goal is to develop and build through the draft and luck in free agency then why would we change either one right now? Carter played under how many coaches and GM's? Bosh? You can't tell me that that doesn't wear on people and if the franchise is going to go anywhere then there needs to be consistency. 2 or 3 years just doesn't cut it and it makes the whole operation unstable.

    This division is getting tougher so the team and plan need to be kept stable in this rebuilding process. These quick fixes that fans call for are like a night out where you get wasted and have the time of your life just to call in sick the next day with a major hangover and puke all over your bathroom floor. You realize it was dumb and you mull over it and hate what you have done. So to forget it you go out and do it all over again thinking it will turn out differently.

    Stability; it's the only thing that can make us better.

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    Stability makes sense if you are going uphill. The Knicks and Nets were stable 2 years ago before firing the coach and gm of both teams, unloading the roster and starting over. Now they are in a better place than the Raptors who were supposed to be an up and coming team a few years back. This team is sinking downhill (and I don't mean in the standings), management has made strange moves and acquired pieces that don't fit almost as if building a puzzle with the same pieces. Something needs to be done before fans jump off that boat and the Raptors become the Grizzlies and end up in Kansas City.

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    Both the Nets and New York are currently good teams, at best. The Knicks, as presently constructed, will never be a legit contender, not with Carmelo and Amare as their two best players.

    The Nets have Williams, Lopez and not much else. They'll need to work some magic this offseason.
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    Something needs to be done before fans jump off that boat and the Raptors become the Grizzlies and end up in Kansas City.
    This last statement completely nullified any argument you may have tried to make. It's a completely ridiculous point that shows an ignorance that is mindnumbing. Sorry.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    This last statement completely nullified any argument you may have tried to make. It's a completely ridiculous point that shows an ignorance that is mindnumbing. Sorry.
    Phew. Glad I didn't have to break it to him.

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    A coaching change can make a big impact though. Look at Philly, last year they couldn't win a game without a miracle playing under that Princeton offense and Doug Collins has made significant strides forward with the same roster. Granted they do have Evan Turner but he hasn't really contributed that much to their success.

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    I think you misunderstood what I meant. Teams like the Knicks, Celtics, Bulls and other teams with solid fan bases and strong markets can survive a decade at the bottom of the barrel. Although Toronto isn't a small market, basketball and managment wise it is very similar to other small market teams. They refuse to pay the luxury tax, this isn't the destination for top level free agents and the fan base isn't that of NY,LA and other teams. Look around the NBA and see how many teams are moving or have moved and tell me if you wouldn't be surprised if Toronto won't be a target if they have a NY Knick decade (2000-2010) and draw 14,000 a night

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    My point is Toronto is doing fine now, but if management continues to screw up and the owners don't hold them accountable for it, it won't be long before the fan base is affected. Seattle and Charlotte were strong NBA cities in the mid 90's and ownership sunk those franchises with consecutive losing years without hope. It's very unlikely for that to happen in Toronto but its not out of the realm of possibility. Very few franchises can never be relocated in the NBA as half the teams aren't profitable and at the end of the day it's still a business. And if your business keeps losing money, you either move or shut down.

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    A coaching change can make a big impact though. Look at Philly, last year they couldn't win a game without a miracle playing under that Princeton offense and Doug Collins has made significant strides forward with the same roster. Granted they do have Evan Turner but he hasn't really contributed that much to their success.
    Philadelphia has talent. The Raptors don't. And it's not just the coaching change and the addition of Evan Turner. It's the development of Jrue Holiday, Elton Brand getting healthier. And last year Philadelphia underperformed. Most people had them pegged as a playoff team. This year they are living up to the expectations they had last year.

    The Raptors have no expectations because they don't have very many good players. They have some nice young talent, but you don't win with nice, young talent.
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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    My point is Toronto is doing fine now, but if management continues to screw up and the owners don't hold them accountable for it, it won't be long before the fan base is affected. Seattle and Charlotte were strong NBA cities in the mid 90's and ownership sunk those franchises with consecutive losing years without hope. It's very unlikely for that to happen in Toronto but its not out of the realm of possibility. Very few franchises can never be relocated in the NBA as half the teams aren't profitable and at the end of the day it's still a business. And if your business keeps losing money, you either move or shut down.
    The Raptors are making more money than 20 other teams in the league. If we can boast a stat like that in the middle of a 15-42 season, then I'm sure we'll be just fine.
    And for the record, MLSE has said they are willing to go over the Tax. So not sure where you got that 'fact'.

    Seattle remained VERY strong. They didn't have a new building. Thats it. Same with Charlotte.
    ACC is TOP OF THE LINE. Moot point.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    The Raptors are making more money than 20 other teams in the league. If we can boast a stat like that in the middle of a 15-42 season, then I'm sure we'll be just fine.
    And for the record, MLSE has said they are willing to go over the Tax. So not sure where you got that 'fact'.

    Seattle remained VERY strong. They didn't have a new building. Thats it. Same with Charlotte.
    ACC is TOP OF THE LINE. Moot point.
    I don't believe that's the case, Charlotte fans were very unhappy with ownership group there and not showing up to games. 10 years later they still don't show up. As for Seattle, they were drawing very few fans not because of the building (as they would like you to believe) but because the product was poor and fans found better way to spend their money. Look at Sacramento crying poor over a new building. Do you remember when that was the loudest building in the NBA a few years back? Did the arena age so much in 8 years that fans chose not to show up. I lived in Boston and that arena was falling apart and fans still showed up game after game. If the Raptors were a contender for the finals would fans not show up because the ACC was old? To me, it's an excuse for owners to leave or threaten to leave. They are losing money and want to blame the city for their departure, not themselves for putting a poor product fans cannot support.

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    Assuming the Raptors are profitable today and doing well, will that be the case 7 years from now if they stay at the bottom of the standings. It's easy to assume that fans will show up but the casual fan will turn off the Tv, not show up at non-prime games and not pay for merchandise.How many season ticket holders will renew their tickets for next season? And the season after that (assuming another lottery year)? Bad ownership and management can sink a franchise very easily.

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    I don't believe that's the case, Charlotte fans were very unhappy with ownership group there and not showing up to games. 10 years later they still don't show up. As for Seattle, they were drawing very few fans not because of the building (as they would like you to believe) but because the product was poor and fans found better way to spend their money. Look at Sacramento crying poor over a new building. Do you remember when that was the loudest building in the NBA a few years back? Did the arena age so much in 8 years that fans chose not to show up. I lived in Boston and that arena was falling apart and fans still showed up game after game. If the Raptors were a contender for the finals would fans not show up because the ACC was old? To me, it's an excuse for owners to leave or threaten to leave. They are losing money and want to blame the city for their departure, not themselves for putting a poor product fans cannot support.
    The product was poor? Do you even research stuff before you talk? Charlotte made the Playoffs the year before they were moved.
    Seattle was 3 years removed from winning the division title. Remember that? David Stern calls the shots. If a building doesn't provide enough venues from which the owner can make back profits, then Stern says "Get a new one, or move." Research stuff before you talk. Its annoying having to correct all these silly statements you are making.

    Sacremento was loud when they were winning. The fanbase is STILL very loud and dedicated. That means nothing when Arco Arena has been around for 24 years. Its one of the oldest buildings in the league. Again, do research.

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    One point I'd like to make: Listen to that interview with Stern and Bill Simmons. When they were talking about possible relocation points Stern was basically listing off which cities had nice arenas.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    The Raptors are making more money than 20 other teams in the league. If we can boast a stat like that in the middle of a 15-42 season, then I'm sure we'll be just fine.
    And for the record, MLSE has said they are willing to go over the Tax. So not sure where you got that 'fact'.

    Seattle remained VERY strong. They didn't have a new building. Thats it. Same with Charlotte.
    ACC is TOP OF THE LINE. Moot point.
    The Raptors are currently 10th on Forbes Magazine's NBA Team Valuations 2010, which to me is mind-boggling.
    As a fan, it doesnt make sense. Why would somebody even think of investing money on a team forcasted to win 20 games? and hasnt been in the playoffs for 3 straight years?
    But business-wise, it makes perfect sense. For sponsors, its a means to get your product out there.
    And the corporate sponsors are pretty much the top-of-the-food-chain companies here in canada - pepsi, rogers, BMO, Ford and Toyota. And your arena being subsidized by the countries biggest airline is not bad either.
    The good part is, we dont have to ever worry about MLSE going bankrupt because of the bevy of corporate sponsors and the amount of money they make off of these sponsors.

    The sad part is, its really not about basketball.

    To us fans, its a constant bang-your-head-on-the-wall struggle year after year with all the loses piling up, but with MLSE, they probably dont really care as long as the money is coming in.
    I hope one of the major sponsors back out due to mediocrity of this team and then MLSE will see that losing isnt healthy.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Feb 23rd, 2011 at 04:13 PM.

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    Assuming the Raptors are profitable today and doing well, will that be the case 7 years from now if they stay at the bottom of the standings. It's easy to assume that fans will show up but the casual fan will turn off the Tv, not show up at non-prime games and not pay for merchandise.How many season ticket holders will renew their tickets for next season? And the season after that (assuming another lottery year)? Bad ownership and management can sink a franchise very easily.
    7 years from now?! Geezus. You do realize that 7 years from now is a LOOOONG time in the sports world.
    You're making ALOT of assumption, right after saying how easy it is to assume things like that. Good job.
    We're bad now.
    Likely won't last 7 years. If it does, I will personally assassinate all MLSE staff and dub ibzilla King of Raptors land.

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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    Stability makes sense if you are going uphill. The Knicks and Nets were stable 2 years ago before firing the coach and gm of both teams, unloading the roster and starting over. Now they are in a better place than the Raptors who were supposed to be an up and coming team a few years back. This team is sinking downhill (and I don't mean in the standings), management has made strange moves and acquired pieces that don't fit almost as if building a puzzle with the same pieces. Something needs to be done before fans jump off that boat and the Raptors become the Grizzlies and end up in Kansas City.
    I have to disagree. Starting after JJ/Peja trade:

    PG: Calderon
    SG: DD
    SF: Kleiza (played injured all year unfortunately and now gone for a year)
    PF: Evans (ditto after 16 games)
    C: Bargnani

    Bench:
    PG: Bayless
    SG: Barbosa/Weems
    SF: Johnson/Wright
    PF: Johnson/Davis
    C: Ajinca/Alabi

    It is obvious some moves were made to give guys a chance. Not every low key move can turn in to an Amir.

    With regards to next season, we have:

    PG: Calderon, Bayless
    SG: DD, Barbosa
    SF: J. Johnson, (Kleiza - IR)
    PF: Davis, A. Johnson
    C: Bargnani, Alabi

    Throw in a high first round draft pick and $13M in cap space (current CBA) and the Raps have promise with 3 solid guards and 3 solid bigs who all compliment.

    IMO, fans are getting caught up in the names being thrown around and not thinking about building a team. Teams are taking a big risk getting max players with a new CBA looming. There are many more smaller/undesirable market teams than large market - changes towards financial parity are coming.

    There is a plan here but it won't happen overnight.

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    All the teams you're talking about are small market teams. And there were reasons that had nothing to do with fan popularity which caused teams to leave (or threaten to leave). For Seattle it was the fact that the city refused to build a new arena. Same goes for Sacramento.

    And all those teams moved to cities of similar, or larger, size.

    Let's say what you say happens and ownership alienates the city and attendance dwindles. Not only that, corporate sponsorship stays away, too, for some reason. Is MLSE going to move the team? Obviously not. They are an Ontario-based company and if all that happens, they are going to want to get out of the NBA game. So they sell.

    If you're a new owner, what are your options? Staying in Toronto and rebuilding the fanbase that is one of the most vocal, passionate and populous in North America, or are you going to risk moving to a city with less than half the population, a fraction of the corporate headquarters and a city that may or may not embrace the team, especially at a time when small market teams are at a disadvantage over teams in bigger cities.

    Donald Sterling has done everything he can to ruin the Clippers, but they are still profitable. And in the end that's all that matters.

    It would take screwing up of massive proportions for the Raptors not to be profitable.

    I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense whatsoever.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    IMO, fans are getting caught up in the names being thrown around and not thinking about building a team. Teams are taking a big risk getting max players with a new CBA looming. There are many more smaller/undesirable market teams than large market - changes towards financial parity are coming.

    There is a plan here but it won't happen overnight.
    I think people are caught up in the current scheme of things. They're not seeing the big picture, the long term. They're not paying attention to the CBA negotiations or otherwise we wouldn't need to have to drop terms like "parity" and "hard cap" every time we speak on such topics. The Raptors are building the way of the Thunder. The Thunder are building the way of a well run NFL team. NFL teams play under a hard cap.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Matt, people are caught up in the current scheme of things. They're not seeing the big picture, the long term. They're not paying attention to the CB negotiations or otherwise we wouldn't need to have to drop terms like "parity" and "hard cap" ever time we speak on such topics.
    I have a dream that one day, all posters will be intelligent and smart.
    I have a dream that one day, all posters will do research before making sweeping conclusions.
    Ladies and Gentlemen, I have a dream... and it is being brutally beaten upon by these ignorant assumptions being thrown around at EVERY turn.

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