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  • #16
    ibzilla wrote: View Post
    Assuming the Raptors are profitable today and doing well, will that be the case 7 years from now if they stay at the bottom of the standings. It's easy to assume that fans will show up but the casual fan will turn off the Tv, not show up at non-prime games and not pay for merchandise.How many season ticket holders will renew their tickets for next season? And the season after that (assuming another lottery year)? Bad ownership and management can sink a franchise very easily.
    7 years from now?! Geezus. You do realize that 7 years from now is a LOOOONG time in the sports world.
    You're making ALOT of assumption, right after saying how easy it is to assume things like that. Good job.
    We're bad now.
    Likely won't last 7 years. If it does, I will personally assassinate all MLSE staff and dub ibzilla King of Raptors land.

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    • #17
      ibzilla wrote: View Post
      Stability makes sense if you are going uphill. The Knicks and Nets were stable 2 years ago before firing the coach and gm of both teams, unloading the roster and starting over. Now they are in a better place than the Raptors who were supposed to be an up and coming team a few years back. This team is sinking downhill (and I don't mean in the standings), management has made strange moves and acquired pieces that don't fit almost as if building a puzzle with the same pieces. Something needs to be done before fans jump off that boat and the Raptors become the Grizzlies and end up in Kansas City.
      I have to disagree. Starting after JJ/Peja trade:

      PG: Calderon
      SG: DD
      SF: Kleiza (played injured all year unfortunately and now gone for a year)
      PF: Evans (ditto after 16 games)
      C: Bargnani

      Bench:
      PG: Bayless
      SG: Barbosa/Weems
      SF: Johnson/Wright
      PF: Johnson/Davis
      C: Ajinca/Alabi

      It is obvious some moves were made to give guys a chance. Not every low key move can turn in to an Amir.

      With regards to next season, we have:

      PG: Calderon, Bayless
      SG: DD, Barbosa
      SF: J. Johnson, (Kleiza - IR)
      PF: Davis, A. Johnson
      C: Bargnani, Alabi

      Throw in a high first round draft pick and $13M in cap space (current CBA) and the Raps have promise with 3 solid guards and 3 solid bigs who all compliment.

      IMO, fans are getting caught up in the names being thrown around and not thinking about building a team. Teams are taking a big risk getting max players with a new CBA looming. There are many more smaller/undesirable market teams than large market - changes towards financial parity are coming.

      There is a plan here but it won't happen overnight.

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      • #18
        All the teams you're talking about are small market teams. And there were reasons that had nothing to do with fan popularity which caused teams to leave (or threaten to leave). For Seattle it was the fact that the city refused to build a new arena. Same goes for Sacramento.

        And all those teams moved to cities of similar, or larger, size.

        Let's say what you say happens and ownership alienates the city and attendance dwindles. Not only that, corporate sponsorship stays away, too, for some reason. Is MLSE going to move the team? Obviously not. They are an Ontario-based company and if all that happens, they are going to want to get out of the NBA game. So they sell.

        If you're a new owner, what are your options? Staying in Toronto and rebuilding the fanbase that is one of the most vocal, passionate and populous in North America, or are you going to risk moving to a city with less than half the population, a fraction of the corporate headquarters and a city that may or may not embrace the team, especially at a time when small market teams are at a disadvantage over teams in bigger cities.

        Donald Sterling has done everything he can to ruin the Clippers, but they are still profitable. And in the end that's all that matters.

        It would take screwing up of massive proportions for the Raptors not to be profitable.

        I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense whatsoever.
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • #19
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          IMO, fans are getting caught up in the names being thrown around and not thinking about building a team. Teams are taking a big risk getting max players with a new CBA looming. There are many more smaller/undesirable market teams than large market - changes towards financial parity are coming.

          There is a plan here but it won't happen overnight.
          I think people are caught up in the current scheme of things. They're not seeing the big picture, the long term. They're not paying attention to the CBA negotiations or otherwise we wouldn't need to have to drop terms like "parity" and "hard cap" every time we speak on such topics. The Raptors are building the way of the Thunder. The Thunder are building the way of a well run NFL team. NFL teams play under a hard cap.

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          • #20
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            Matt, people are caught up in the current scheme of things. They're not seeing the big picture, the long term. They're not paying attention to the CB negotiations or otherwise we wouldn't need to have to drop terms like "parity" and "hard cap" ever time we speak on such topics.
            I have a dream that one day, all posters will be intelligent and smart.
            I have a dream that one day, all posters will do research before making sweeping conclusions.
            Ladies and Gentlemen, I have a dream... and it is being brutally beaten upon by these ignorant assumptions being thrown around at EVERY turn.

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            • #21
              joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
              I have a dream that one day, all posters will be intelligent and smart.
              I have a dream that one day, all posters will do research before making sweeping conclusions.
              Ladies and Gentlemen, I have a dream... and it is being brutally beaten upon by these ignorant assumptions being thrown around at EVERY turn.
              i take exception to the 1st line.
              when i started posting here, i actually didnt know anything about the "business" of basketball.
              im a raptors fan, plain and simple. i keep tabs on the transactions, watch the games, hope they win.
              not until i became a regular poster here that i looked more into the salary cap, TPEs, etc, etc.
              i think forums are not just for people to voice opinions but to learn a few things here and there as well.

              izbilla is posting as a fan and i find no fault in that.
              the raps maybe building or rebuilding like the thunder, but their success doesnt necessarily translate to that of the Raptors.
              Its not math. I dont think there's a sure formula when it comes to basketball or sports in general.

              Comment


              • #22
                tbihis wrote: View Post
                i take exception to the 1st line.
                when i started posting here, i actually didnt know anything about the "business" of basketball.
                im a raptors fan, plain and simple. i keep tabs on the transactions, watch the games, hope they win.
                not until i became a regular poster here that i looked more into the salary cap, TPEs, etc, etc.
                i think forums are not just for people to voice opinions but to learn a few things here and there as well.

                izbilla is posting as a fan and i find no fault in that.
                the raps maybe building or rebuilding like the thunder, but their success doesnt necessarily translate to that of the Raptors.
                Its not math. I dont think there's a sure formula when it comes to basketball or sports in general.
                Was meant more as a joke than anything. But you are right I suppose. Didn't mean any harm by it. I was more pointing to the incredible amount of blissful ingorance that is running amok here, where people don't even bother to take 4 minutes to see if what they are writing is even correct and accurate. Thats all I was saying.
                I am all for people coming in here with an attitude that 'I am looking to learn and contribute'. But when people come in with a stubborn, "I'm Right, You're wrong" and no room for sway, than these conversations are no longer conversations and simpy random people stating opinion. Which is fine. But form it as opinion and not fact.

                Comment


                • #23
                  tbihis wrote: View Post
                  i take exception to the 1st line.
                  when i started posting here, i actually didnt know anything about the "business" of basketball.
                  im a raptors fan, plain and simple. i keep tabs on the transactions, watch the games, hope they win.
                  not until i became a regular poster here that i looked more into the salary cap, TPEs, etc, etc.
                  i think forums are not just for people to voice opinions but to learn a few things here and there as well.

                  izbilla is posting as a fan and i find no fault in that.
                  the raps maybe building or rebuilding like the thunder, but their success doesnt necessarily translate to that of the Raptors.
                  Its not math. I dont think there's a sure formula when it comes to basketball or sports in general.
                  You make some very good points. This is a good place for people to learn the whole game, not just the on court product.

                  You're right, this isn't something that can be solved with math but it'd probably best to go the path that gives you the most probability for success. I think in the current climate and with the Raptors' reputation, going the Thunder route is the best path.

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                  • #24
                    joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                    Was meant more as a joke than anything. But you are right I suppose. Didn't mean any harm by it. I was more pointing to the incredible amount of blissful ingorance that is running amok here, where people don't even bother to take 4 minutes to see if what they are writing is even correct and accurate. Thats all I was saying.
                    I am all for people coming in here with an attitude that 'I am looking to learn and contribute'. But when people come in with a stubborn, "I'm Right, You're wrong" and no room for sway, than these conversations are no longer conversations and simpy random people stating opinion. Which is fine. But form it as opinion and not fact.
                    i know you were, i actually laughed when i read it but also figured some posters might feel theyre being shoo-ed away so i tried to defend the common man, so to speak.

                    hahaha i have that attitude sometimes, but when im wrong, i admit to it in the end.

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                    • #25
                      I think that too many of the fan posts I've been reading or listening to today are too negative, and sounds like many are feeling sorry for themselves saying that nobody will come to Toronto. That's not true. Players want to win. If your team is shit most companies wouldn't want to be affiliated with them through endorsements either. How many Milwaukee Bucks, Pacers or Kings have big endorsement deals? Toronto is not the problem. Vince Carter had his deals and so did Bosh. Perhaps not as much as in the States, but I think we can see that Bosh isn't the corporate stud he thought he'd be. What corporation is looking past D-Wade and Lebron to get ahold of Bosh? Maybe Lenscrafters or Business Depot, thats about it.

                      The Nets gave up huge talent and picks to get D-Will. I can't imagine them doing much better than they were before with Harris and Favours combined. In the offseason they might pick up free agents, but who is there?

                      The majority of Boston's players bones are turning into dust. They will be competitive this season and maybe next at the max. From then on it will be the Rondo show and back to the draft.

                      Philly? Blah....

                      New York will be good, but I doubt they will be able to deal with Miami, Chicago or even Orlando in the future unless Chris Paul comes there. If he does then the NBA needs to get rid of 5 or 6 teams because if they think they're losing money now, wait until only 8 teams have legit all-stars. Look at the all star game, out of the 12 all stars in the east 9 of them were from 3 teams (Boston, Miami, Atlanta). The west is a little more even.

                      Coming up, Toronto has the potential to have 2 decent starters in Derozan (2nd or 3rd option) and Bargnani (3rd or 4th option) with Amir as the good garbage man, with Davis in the wings. If we can get a quality PG or SF who can create their own shot, the Raps will be much better off. Due to their division getting stacked through trades, Toronto's consistent sucking will allow them to become stacked through the draft if Colangelo can get his picks right. Stay the course for a couple more hard seasons and there will be an upside. By the time the rest of the teams start falling off, Toronto should be right there. IF Derozan or Davis splits then we will have a problem. If our draft pick fails to report via Steve Francis, worry then, not now.

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                      • #26
                        Apollo wrote: View Post
                        You make some very good points. This is a good place for people to learn the whole game, not just the on court product.

                        You're right, this isn't something that can be solved with math but it'd probably best to go the path that gives you the most probability for success. I think in the current climate and with the Raptors' reputation, going the Thunder route is the best path.
                        oh yeah no doubt about it.
                        its always been the case with pretty much everything in this world.
                        somebody invents something, others follow the same path to success, eventhough some dont admit that they did, hehe.
                        originality, at least in the NBA, doesnt merit hero worship anymore.
                        the key is to find something that has been proven to work, and make it your own.

                        im all for the Raps going through the same path as the Thunder, but like i said, there are no guarantees so im not jumping up and down just yet.

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                        • #27
                          teams are going to suck at times... its inevitable.. the celts are going to suck at times... the lakers are going to suck at times... im patiently waiting for the spurs to hit that wall...

                          people take the business of basketball too personally... i'm all for being passionate for your team but getting on a soapbox to declare "so and so HAVE to go!!! FIRE !!! we should trade random player for conditional picks and cash considerations!" is nonsensical

                          im of the mindset that the worst nba exec in the league is a better GM than i would be (except isiah thomas.. even i could do better than that)... so might as well take the good and take the bad.. just keep supporting your team

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                          • #28
                            For those fearing a Raptors move I hear the new cba is going to mandate that players will be paid in the now more valuable and surging Can. $.

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                            • #29
                              LOL, are you serious? Naw...

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                              • #30
                                ok u guyz r probably going to think im a retard for not knowing this, but Wtf is the CBA?

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