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Thread: Colangelo plan becoming more obvious with each move

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Default Colangelo plan becoming more obvious with each move

    Former young first round draft picks dubbed as 'athletic' & 'solid defender'

    Also who's value may be below market and may be untapped AND may be playing behind high end starter.... Diamond in the ruff if you will.

    Player // age / Drafted / traded for / playing behind
    A.Ajinka // 22yrs / #20 2008 / P.Stojac / Chandler
    JBayless // 22yrs / #11 2008 / Ja. Jack / C. Paul
    JJohnson // 24yrs / #16 2009 / Mia 1RD / Ldeng + Taj Gibson
    J.Wright // 23yrs / #13 2007 / M.Beline / your mom

    Not bad considering how well the weems + johnson for Delfino Ukic trade went I suppose he is trying to duplicate his luck.

    To be honest I am not sad to see any of the above players who were sent to aquire those 4 leave town but the Mia pick we wont know about until later. Will Tristan Thomspson be available at that time??

    If say 2 of these become rotation players (like weems and Johnson have). Then the BC looks smart. Maybe even savvy. Bayless has the best chance to stick IMO even though he has a long way to go - I think he might have the character and youth to still achieve.

    Ajinka would be second most likely against because of his size and youth. IF he is committed he could be a decent back up center. Needs to work on his body big time though. But moves well for a big and can block shots.

    The other two will seem destined for europe or D league. Jwright aint working on his jumper and could have become a Bruce Bowen type guy if he had incredible work ethic. It does not seem like he does because things which he could have improved on (like shooting wide open jumpers) are garbage... out side chance to stick as a reserve or stopper? dunno

    This draft is huge for Raptors. They need a starting PG who can defend of point of attack. Another season like this and you are asking too much of emerging start like DeRozen to buy in.

    If they can't get Irvin they have to put together a package even if it includes this year first rounder and get someone to run all these young players who is just like them.

    The good thing is BC has assembled numerous players on the rise unlike previous acquisitions like Turk / Jack / Kapono / Jermain O'Neil / klieza who will only decline and are defensive liabilities.

    If they can get that PG and dump Bargs + calderon in the offseason this team might even be fighting for home court by this time next year.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    So we need five more years of him at 5 Mil per to continue to search for the diamond in the rough. Someone said in this forum that BC is at least doing extra work to gather information and legwork to find these fringe players and for that we should be happy. My take on this is just because you spend more time tire kicking and speculating around the league doesn't necessarily mean that you're good either. As one of the more highly paid executives around the league, this franchise needs to see more than just fringe players or "escape-from-bad-contract" trades.

    Sam Presti just snagged Perkins and Mohammed for players they intend not to keep. He prepared his team for the grind of the playoffs. That's action. I guess one can say that BC is preparing the Raps for the future. Does he need another five years to see these fringe players work out?
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Thu Feb 24th, 2011 at 06:48 PM.

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    i am worried i really am, while colangelo is good at finding role players who can contribute to a team he has yet to prove he can make the big deals go through, as shown through his free agent signings. What worries me even more is that he thinks calderon and bargnani are fit to be starters! I still wonder if he knows defense wins championships and isn't trying to build another phoenix, OKC's aquisition of perkins if he manages to stay healthy is brilliant, of course colangelo wasn't expected to pull off a move like this with absolutely no pieces, but I am on the fence as to whether i trust him with the team in his hands for the future.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    So we need five more years of him at 5 Mil per to continue to search for the diamond in the rough. Someone said in this forum that BC is at least doing extra work to gather information and legwork to find these fringe players and for that we should be happy. My take on this is just because you spend more time tire kicking and speculating around the league doesn't necessarily mean that you're good either. As one of the more highly paid executives around the league, this franchise needs to see more than just fringe players or "escape-from-bad-contract" trades.

    Sam Presti just snagged Perkins and Mohammed for players they intend not to keep. He prepared his team for the grind of the playoffs. That's action. I guess one can say that BC is preparing the Raps for the future. Does he need another five years to see these fringe players work out?
    valid point - I think he has drafted well since Bargs (which was idiotic) Derozen and Davis are legit blue chippers. I do believe things would be much better if BC was not saddled with building around bosh?

    furthermore other GM's may landed better packages for their stars (ie. Melo / Deron Williams) than did BC appears to have - its convoluted but looks like it may be bosh for / bayless / Ajinka / J. Johnson / TOR 1st rounder?? (Harrison Barnes or Kyle Irving) the real value of the Bosh trade wont be known until another year or two when these players are shown for what they are or they are used in deals etc...
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    So we need five more years of him at 5 Mil per to continue to search for the diamond in the rough. Someone said in this forum that BC is at least doing extra work to gather information and legwork to find these fringe players and for that we should be happy. My take on this is just because you spend more time tire kicking and speculating around the league doesn't necessarily mean that you're good either. As one of the more highly paid executives around the league, this franchise needs to see more than just fringe players or "escape-from-bad-contract" trades.

    Sam Presti just snagged Perkins and Mohammed for players they intend not to keep. He prepared his team for the grind of the playoffs. That's action. I guess one can say that BC is preparing the Raps for the future. Does he need another five years to see these fringe players work out?
    +1 Balls of steel, BC is a gambler acquiring all these projects hoping they become something. I don't think we need this BC guy for another 5 years at the same salary when we could pay $1-2 m for an assistant GM in small market (like us) winning organizations a la Oklahoma City Thunder, Portland Trailblazers and the San Antonio Spurs (a la Sam Presti, he is a new GM and pulls the trades for Kendrick Perkins and Nazr Mohammed to shore up the last weakness, the Oklahoma City Thunder currently have(remember, they tried to shore it up by trading for Cole Aldrich at the draft) which is post defense and help defense and also get 3 point shooting(they are almost last in the NBA in 3 point shooting) in Nate Robinson) and Masai Ujiri - the GM of the Nuggets that was able to get a decent return for Carmelo Anthony and also get ahead in the rebuilding as a result of the trade return. Imo, some assistant GMs need a challenge to be a GM and I can bet they can't do any worse than BC has done in his 5 years here) or paying the same $5m a year(or $1m more) for a better proven GM in Kevin Pritchard(that the Portland Trailblazers are in the playoffs in the West despite all injuries and a Wes Matthews trade shows Kevin Pritchard is good at drafting excepting the Brandon Roy and the Oden pick(Lamarcus Aldridge is way better than Tyrus Thomas they would have drafted then and Bargs, Nicolas Batum was a solid pick that every team wants in the league and some other small draft picks panned out(like Dante Cunnningham))).
    Last edited by smushmush; Thu Feb 24th, 2011 at 07:53 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Sam Presti just snagged Perkins and Mohammed for players they intend not to keep. He prepared his team for the grind of the playoffs. That's action. I guess one can say that BC is preparing the Raps for the future. Does he need another five years to see these fringe players work out?
    OKC are five years ahead of the Raptors in terms of building a contending team.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I've been pretty impressed with Ajincia, actually. Specifically how aggressive he's been. Good backup.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Hassan's Avatar
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    this draft is a bad draft to have a high pick in most players wont come out due to the lockout

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    OKC are five years ahead of the Raptors in terms of building a contending team.
    Gotta agree with Matt52. BC doesn't exactly have the tools to work with that Presti does. Alot of his moves haven't necessarily panned out but you can't fault the guy for trying. Everyone was jacked when he brought in Guys like O'Neal, Turk and Marion, but when it didn't translate to wins they roast the guy. At least he works quickly to remedy mistakes rather than holding on to them. I mean look how long it took the Knicks to get rid of Eddy Curry's contract.
    Deadallus

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    OKC are five years ahead of the Raptors in terms of building a contending team.
    I'm not comparing OKC with the Raps per se. What I'm referring to is Presti's ability to really address his team's needs. You could argue that Kendrick is an MCL or ACL tear away from a disaster. Injuries are unfortunate. However, the Hedo signing was not fraught with potential health risks but rather a knee jerk reaction to Bosh's potential departure. It was a bad fit and he was only saved by Babby's intentions of helping out his former client in Turkoglu. BC didn't pull a rabbit out of a hat on that one to make it happen. He just had a willing partner which eventually flipped him to Orlando anyway (but I digress).

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    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    BC's first signature raptors team was the 2006 team when he brought in TJ, AP, Jorge, Maurizio etc. The team fell apart due to injuries and chemistry problems. Story of a Raptor fans life.

    Ever since then it's just seemed kind of rudderless. It's been one band-aid solution after another. I like that he now has his back against the wall but he's not being a sucker and picking up some mid level star with a top level salary. I don't know if he's got what it takes but his career, credibility and reputation will all take a serious hit if this rebuild fails.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I'm not comparing OKC with the Raps per se. What I'm referring to is Presti's ability to really address his team's needs. You could argue that Kendrick is an MCL or ACL tear away from a disaster. Injuries are unfortunate. However, the Hedo signing was not fraught with potential health risks but rather a knee jerk reaction to Bosh's potential departure. It was a bad fit and he was only saved by Babby's intentions of helping out his former client in Turkoglu. BC didn't pull a rabbit out of a hat on that one to make it happen. He just had a willing partner which eventually flipped him to Orlando anyway (but I digress).
    I guess he just had a willing partner in the Jazz for them to take on Araujo. I guess BC also JUST had a willing partner in Miami to take on O'Neal's massive contract. I guess he also JUST had a willing partner to take on a seldom-used Kapono and an erratic Jarrett Jack. I mean common, give credit where its due. Im not saying he's the best GM in the whole world but again, give credit where its due. Although most consider his moves as mistakes, if you assess why these moves were done, it was because to fill a void that the team needed to fill, but it just didnt work out. The only knack i have with Colangelo, and sometimes it does work, is he likes to swing for the fences so to speak. He took a risk on J.O because he was what the Raps needed at that time, a big man who can block shots and clog the paint. But it just didnt work out. The raps needed a guy who can create his own shots and handle the team in crunch time so he got Turk. But it just didnt work out. The thing is, if J.O. stayed healthy, im pretty sure none of us would be hearing about Bargs right now, he wouldve probably been shipped off somewhere and made his mark somewhere, and we would have all gone mad at BC for trading a skilled 7 footer. If Turk stayed and actually played good, nobody wouldve seen Davis coz Bosh would still be here and for sure BC wouldnt have drafted him. And they wouldve probably been up there in the eastern conference and none of y'all would be bashing BC. But there are certain things that are beyond control like injuries, ill personalities, etc. And unfortunately, the Raps pretty much got infected with these things under BC's watch.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I guess he just had a willing partner in the Jazz for them to take on Araujo. I guess BC also JUST had a willing partner in Miami to take on O'Neal's massive contract. I guess he also JUST had a willing partner to take on a seldom-used Kapono and an erratic Jarrett Jack. I mean common, give credit where its due. Im not saying he's the best GM in the whole world but again, give credit where its due. Although most consider his moves as mistakes, if you assess why these moves were done, it was because to fill a void that the team needed to fill, but it just didnt work out. The only knack i have with Colangelo, and sometimes it does work, is he likes to swing for the fences so to speak. He took a risk on J.O because he was what the Raps needed at that time, a big man who can block shots and clog the paint. But it just didnt work out. The raps needed a guy who can create his own shots and handle the team in crunch time so he got Turk. But it just didnt work out. The thing is, if J.O. stayed healthy, im pretty sure none of us would be hearing about Bargs right now, he wouldve probably been shipped off somewhere and made his mark somewhere, and we would have all gone mad at BC for trading a skilled 7 footer. If Turk stayed and actually played good, nobody wouldve seen Davis coz Bosh would still be here and for sure BC wouldnt have drafted him. And they wouldve probably been up there in the eastern conference and none of y'all would be bashing BC. But there are certain things that are beyond control like injuries, ill personalities, etc. And unfortunately, the Raps pretty much got infected with these things under BC's watch.
    good points, some of BC's signings were bad luck I was behind the Jermaine Oneal signing, but i wasn't a big fan of the turkoglu signing, an average to below average defender who absolutely needed the ball in his hands to be effective, but im willing to give him a pass, if that was a knee jerk reaction to woo bosh, but to think calderon and bargnani will be starters on this team next year when they are so fundamentally flawed defensively....

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I guess he just had a willing partner in the Jazz for them to take on Araujo. I guess BC also JUST had a willing partner in Miami to take on O'Neal's massive contract. I guess he also JUST had a willing partner to take on a seldom-used Kapono and an erratic Jarrett Jack. I mean common, give credit where its due. Im not saying he's the best GM in the whole world but again, give credit where its due. Although most consider his moves as mistakes, if you assess why these moves were done, it was because to fill a void that the team needed to fill, but it just didnt work out. The only knack i have with Colangelo, and sometimes it does work, is he likes to swing for the fences so to speak. He took a risk on J.O because he was what the Raps needed at that time, a big man who can block shots and clog the paint. But it just didnt work out. The raps needed a guy who can create his own shots and handle the team in crunch time so he got Turk. But it just didnt work out. The thing is, if J.O. stayed healthy, im pretty sure none of us would be hearing about Bargs right now, he wouldve probably been shipped off somewhere and made his mark somewhere, and we would have all gone mad at BC for trading a skilled 7 footer. If Turk stayed and actually played good, nobody wouldve seen Davis coz Bosh would still be here and for sure BC wouldnt have drafted him. And they wouldve probably been up there in the eastern conference and none of y'all would be bashing BC. But there are certain things that are beyond control like injuries, ill personalities, etc. And unfortunately, the Raps pretty much got infected with these things under BC's watch.
    Again, this is not a "fire BC" thread response. What I'm questioning is his knack for fringe players while doing the swinging for the fences moves to address key areas of his team. Joe Johnson was a fringe player from Boston and we now know what that guy's impact is on Atlanta. It's just that 5 more years to see if things come to fruition is too long and he's had a crack at it already. He also isn't going to settle for a two year extension either (that's my problem with him - he wants his cake and eat it too). My point therefore is that he shouldn't be given an extension term that HE thinks he wants and needs to see his work through.

    Let's face it, if he's really wanted by this prganization, he should have been renewed a while ago. Everyone knows that the team is not going anywhere this year. Why the wait and see approach from MLSE? At this point, he's a lame duck GM.
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Fri Feb 25th, 2011 at 07:00 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I guess he just had a willing partner in the Jazz for them to take on Araujo. I guess BC also JUST had a willing partner in Miami to take on O'Neal's massive contract. I guess he also JUST had a willing partner to take on a seldom-used Kapono and an erratic Jarrett Jack. I mean common, give credit where its due. Im not saying he's the best GM in the whole world but again, give credit where its due. Although most consider his moves as mistakes, if you assess why these moves were done, it was because to fill a void that the team needed to fill, but it just didnt work out. The only knack i have with Colangelo, and sometimes it does work, is he likes to swing for the fences so to speak. He took a risk on J.O because he was what the Raps needed at that time, a big man who can block shots and clog the paint. But it just didnt work out. The raps needed a guy who can create his own shots and handle the team in crunch time so he got Turk. But it just didnt work out. The thing is, if J.O. stayed healthy, im pretty sure none of us would be hearing about Bargs right now, he wouldve probably been shipped off somewhere and made his mark somewhere, and we would have all gone mad at BC for trading a skilled 7 footer. If Turk stayed and actually played good, nobody wouldve seen Davis coz Bosh would still be here and for sure BC wouldnt have drafted him. And they wouldve probably been up there in the eastern conference and none of y'all would be bashing BC. But there are certain things that are beyond control like injuries, ill personalities, etc. And unfortunately, the Raps pretty much got infected with these things under BC's watch.
    Sorry tbihis, I'm not picking a fight but look at the number of if's you stated so far. Five years of if's and's or but's. I dunno man.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I'm not comparing OKC with the Raps per se. What I'm referring to is Presti's ability to really address his team's needs. You could argue that Kendrick is an MCL or ACL tear away from a disaster. Injuries are unfortunate. However, the Hedo signing was not fraught with potential health risks but rather a knee jerk reaction to Bosh's potential departure. It was a bad fit and he was only saved by Babby's intentions of helping out his former client in Turkoglu. BC didn't pull a rabbit out of a hat on that one to make it happen. He just had a willing partner which eventually flipped him to Orlando anyway (but I digress).
    "Sam Presti just snagged Perkins and Mohammed for players they intend not to keep. He prepared his team for the grind of the playoffs. That's action. I guess one can say that BC is preparing the Raps for the future. Does he need another five years to see these fringe players work out?"

    I apologize but my interpretation of the above is comparing the action of one and the inaction of another. If you meant differently, so be it.

    The Raps are essentially where SEA/OKC were after the 2006 draft where they picked Sene #10 (we picked Davis #13). It was the next season (this year for the Raps) when they got to the #2 pick and traded for the #5 pick.

    Presit has had 5 years of a rebuild, accumulating assets and developing young talent. Of course he was able to make a stellar trade for his team.

    I do not agree he is not addressing the team's needs. Ridding of long term contracts of players who have peaked and are average at best, picked up young players with upside, obvious changes in roster construction with athleticism and defensive abilities being a focus. The reality is Calderon and Bargnani are the only players left on the roster that fit the BC-stereotype of players (soft, euro, shooters, poor defense).

    As for Turk/Barbosa, it has no relevance to what I was discussing. However, whatever the reasons, he traded a bad contract for a decent contract yet that is not to his credit. Much like Bargnani, it seems whatever BC does will never be good enough for many Raps fans.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    Presit has had 5 years of a rebuild, accumulating assets and developing young talent. Of course he was able to make a stellar trade for his team.
    Um, Colangelo has been here since 2006. He's had 5 years, too. I love these attempts to simply erase history and make it appear as though this is really the first year of the Colangelo era. BC completely rebuilt this roster in 2006, 2008 and 2009. Every iteration failed.

    As for BC's 'plan' becoming clear, bringing in marginal talents and castoffs isn't a plan. It's ad hoc. The individual deals may be good or bad but they signal no greater intention. The Johnson deal, for example, is simply taking a flyer on a guy they once liked cause they see the draft as poor. There's nothing wrong with that per se but it doesn't tell us anything about BC's long-term plan or vision for the roster.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Um, Colangelo has been here since 2006. He's had 5 years, too. I love these attempts to simply erase history and make it appear as though this is really the first year of the Colangelo era. BC completely rebuilt this roster in 2006, 2008 and 2009. Every iteration failed.
    What was the common denominator for every roster shake up? Building around RuPaul.

    2006/07 was very successful until Garbo went down. 2008/09 and 200/10 were obviously not.

    This is the first rebuild - this is not another roster shake up.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What was the common denominator for every roster shake up? Building around RuPaul.
    Yeah, it was Bosh's fault. Or Bargnani's fault. Or TJ Ford's fault. Or Jermaine O'Neal's fault. Or Turkoglu's fault. Or Sam Mitchell's fault. When the next Colangelo creation fails it will be Triano's fault, or Derozan's fault. We also always have MLSE as a convenient scapegoat, too. With the new age Raptors, the buck stops everywhere except with the guy making all the decisions.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    With the new age Raptors, the buck stops everywhere except with the guy making all the decisions.
    *EDIT* Actually misread the statement quoted. My point below stands though. A 'franchise player' in place when he arrived with the intention of building around shim. Said 'franchise player' is now gone. No more roster shake up, rebuild. What happens next is 100% on BC.

    Exactly. Everyone here, minus Jose but he did give him the contract extension so technically him too, are here because of BC.

    This is not a roster shake up. This is a rebuild - the first one under his watch. Everything from here on out is on BC.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Feb 25th, 2011 at 10:04 AM.

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