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  • #16
    Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I'm not comparing OKC with the Raps per se. What I'm referring to is Presti's ability to really address his team's needs. You could argue that Kendrick is an MCL or ACL tear away from a disaster. Injuries are unfortunate. However, the Hedo signing was not fraught with potential health risks but rather a knee jerk reaction to Bosh's potential departure. It was a bad fit and he was only saved by Babby's intentions of helping out his former client in Turkoglu. BC didn't pull a rabbit out of a hat on that one to make it happen. He just had a willing partner which eventually flipped him to Orlando anyway (but I digress).
    "Sam Presti just snagged Perkins and Mohammed for players they intend not to keep. He prepared his team for the grind of the playoffs. That's action. I guess one can say that BC is preparing the Raps for the future. Does he need another five years to see these fringe players work out?"

    I apologize but my interpretation of the above is comparing the action of one and the inaction of another. If you meant differently, so be it.

    The Raps are essentially where SEA/OKC were after the 2006 draft where they picked Sene #10 (we picked Davis #13). It was the next season (this year for the Raps) when they got to the #2 pick and traded for the #5 pick.

    Presit has had 5 years of a rebuild, accumulating assets and developing young talent. Of course he was able to make a stellar trade for his team.

    I do not agree he is not addressing the team's needs. Ridding of long term contracts of players who have peaked and are average at best, picked up young players with upside, obvious changes in roster construction with athleticism and defensive abilities being a focus. The reality is Calderon and Bargnani are the only players left on the roster that fit the BC-stereotype of players (soft, euro, shooters, poor defense).

    As for Turk/Barbosa, it has no relevance to what I was discussing. However, whatever the reasons, he traded a bad contract for a decent contract yet that is not to his credit. Much like Bargnani, it seems whatever BC does will never be good enough for many Raps fans.

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    • #17
      Matt52 wrote: View Post

      Presit has had 5 years of a rebuild, accumulating assets and developing young talent. Of course he was able to make a stellar trade for his team.
      Um, Colangelo has been here since 2006. He's had 5 years, too. I love these attempts to simply erase history and make it appear as though this is really the first year of the Colangelo era. BC completely rebuilt this roster in 2006, 2008 and 2009. Every iteration failed.

      As for BC's 'plan' becoming clear, bringing in marginal talents and castoffs isn't a plan. It's ad hoc. The individual deals may be good or bad but they signal no greater intention. The Johnson deal, for example, is simply taking a flyer on a guy they once liked cause they see the draft as poor. There's nothing wrong with that per se but it doesn't tell us anything about BC's long-term plan or vision for the roster.

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      • #18
        slaw wrote: View Post
        Um, Colangelo has been here since 2006. He's had 5 years, too. I love these attempts to simply erase history and make it appear as though this is really the first year of the Colangelo era. BC completely rebuilt this roster in 2006, 2008 and 2009. Every iteration failed.
        What was the common denominator for every roster shake up? Building around RuPaul.

        2006/07 was very successful until Garbo went down. 2008/09 and 200/10 were obviously not.

        This is the first rebuild - this is not another roster shake up.

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        • #19
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          What was the common denominator for every roster shake up? Building around RuPaul.
          Yeah, it was Bosh's fault. Or Bargnani's fault. Or TJ Ford's fault. Or Jermaine O'Neal's fault. Or Turkoglu's fault. Or Sam Mitchell's fault. When the next Colangelo creation fails it will be Triano's fault, or Derozan's fault. We also always have MLSE as a convenient scapegoat, too. With the new age Raptors, the buck stops everywhere except with the guy making all the decisions.

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          • #20
            slaw wrote: View Post
            With the new age Raptors, the buck stops everywhere except with the guy making all the decisions.
            *EDIT* Actually misread the statement quoted. My point below stands though. A 'franchise player' in place when he arrived with the intention of building around shim. Said 'franchise player' is now gone. No more roster shake up, rebuild. What happens next is 100% on BC.

            Exactly. Everyone here, minus Jose but he did give him the contract extension so technically him too, are here because of BC.

            This is not a roster shake up. This is a rebuild - the first one under his watch. Everything from here on out is on BC.
            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Feb 25, 2011, 11:04 AM.

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            • #21
              Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
              Again, this is not a "fire BC" thread response. What I'm questioning is his knack for fringe players while doing the swinging for the fences moves to address key areas of his team. Joe Johnson was a fringe player from Boston and we now know what that guy's impact is on Atlanta. It's just that 5 more years to see if things come to fruition is too long and he's had a crack at it already. He also isn't going to settle for a two year extension either (that's my problem with him - he wants his cake and eat it too). My point therefore is that he shouldn't be given an extension term that HE thinks he wants and needs to see his work through.

              Let's face it, if he's really wanted by this prganization, he should have been renewed a while ago. Everyone knows that the team is not going anywhere this year. Why the wait and see approach from MLSE? At this point, he's a lame duck GM.
              +1 Balls of steel, that is what I have been telling his supporters in Tim W. Moreover, Masai Ujiri is a new GM and he got a decent return for Carmelo Anthony(hoping he has a good draft this year for the double whammy), Sam Presti( a relatively new GM in OKC is pulling some sick trade moves and slowly turning that team into a championship contender a la San Antonio Spurs style) and Rich Cho(getting Wes Matthews last offseason, now getting Gerald Wallace without trading the franchise's prized pick in Nicolas Batum and they are Top 6 in the tough tough West without Camby, Oden and Brandon Roy - very impressive, I must say). Sometimes, brand GMs like BC are not good for franchises like the Raptors - get an Assistant GM from winning small market organizations like the San Antonio Spurs, Portland Trailblazers and Oklahoma City Thunder and I guarantee you, they can't do any worse than BC has done in 5 years. My 2 cents.

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              • #22
                Why is it that there are so many people that just need to find someone to blame? It is either BC, Bargs, or Jose that take the most heat. People are celebrating Presti for a move that we have no idea how it will pan out....just like O'neal. If Perkins only plays one injury filled year there how does it look then, does OKC need to get rid of Presti?

                Bosh was and is not a top tier superstar, we all hoped he would be, but he just was not. I think the direction the team is heading is good, we have a young improving core, a good draft pick coming, and some assets and cap flexibility to continue to improve. I am willing to ride this out and see what we have over the next season or two.
                Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

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                • #23
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  What was the common denominator for every roster shake up? Building around RuPaul.

                  2006/07 was very successful until Garbo went down. 2008/09 and 200/10 were obviously not.

                  This is the first rebuild - this is not another roster shake up.
                  Was he really building around Chris Bosh? I find it unlimkely he would have drafted Bargnani if this was the case. One minute Bosh was the "cornerstone of the franchise" and the next he was "an expensive pair of handcuffs" all in BC's words. This year it was said that the intent was to rebuild and develop the youth, but that is only because the Chandler deal didn't get through otherwise that plan would have been altered while we battled to try and make the playoffs. A plan or vision is usually not fleeting and easily chnaged and altered.

                  If Colangelo made the mistake of building around a player that shouldn't have been built around, isn't it his own doing? Is Bosh to blame for this? BC made the final decisions. Furthermore, he also didn't put the proper players around Bosh and that was evidenced in the poor records. In '06 when he got it right it was good, after that it was all bad, yet it is often made to seem like Bosh was holding him hostage on player personnel decisions.

                  The past few days should indicate no matter who you are as a player a GM will ultimately decide where the franchsie is going and take ths steps to secure and protect its future as evidenced with Denver and Utah.

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                  • #24
                    sleepz wrote: View Post
                    The past few days should indicate no matter who you are as a player a GM will ultimately decide where the franchsie is going and take ths steps to secure and protect its future as evidenced with Denver and Utah.
                    The past few days have served notice to the players they do not handcuff the franchises.

                    Last summer served notice to the owners/GM's that they do not handcuff the players. The general consensus players would play where they could get the most guaranteed years and money was abolished last summer.

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                    • #25
                      Colangelo has only one Major failure and that was trying to build a team around Bosh, which was hopeless. He's thrilled that Bosh is gone and now he can build his team the right way. A good GM is someone who's good at evaluating talent and finding hidden gems, so far so good, in my opinion.
                      -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                      -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

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                      • #26
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        The general consensus players would play where they could get the most guaranteed years and money was abolished last summer.
                        I want to test that theory again under a CBA that isn't dysfunctional. For example, a hard cap of say $60mm with no restrictions (minimums or maximums) on individual salaries. If the Knicks had been able to offer Lebron $40mm/year for 10 years, I suspect that $15 and 6 from Miami wouldn't look so hot. From my perspective, that is really the one foolproof method of breaking up these "super-teams" - think Wade and Bosh would have taken $7mm each while Lebron was getting $35 or $40? Not a chance. The NBA owners will screw it up eventually but that can't be helped.

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                        • #27
                          slaw wrote: View Post
                          I want to test that theory again under a CBA that isn't dysfunctional. For example, a hard cap of say $60mm with no restrictions (minimums or maximums) on individual salaries. If the Knicks had been able to offer Lebron $40mm/year for 10 years, I suspect that $15 and 6 from Miami wouldn't look so hot. From my perspective, that is really the one foolproof method of breaking up these "super-teams" - think Wade and Bosh would have taken $7mm each while Lebron was getting $35 or $40? Not a chance. The NBA owners will screw it up eventually but that can't be helped.
                          It will be interesting to see what changes the new CBA brings.

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                          • #28
                            Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                            Again, this is not a "fire BC" thread response. What I'm questioning is his knack for fringe players while doing the swinging for the fences moves to address key areas of his team. Joe Johnson was a fringe player from Boston and we now know what that guy's impact is on Atlanta. It's just that 5 more years to see if things come to fruition is too long and he's had a crack at it already. He also isn't going to settle for a two year extension either (that's my problem with him - he wants his cake and eat it too). My point therefore is that he shouldn't be given an extension term that HE thinks he wants and needs to see his work through.

                            Let's face it, if he's really wanted by this prganization, he should have been renewed a while ago. Everyone knows that the team is not going anywhere this year. Why the wait and see approach from MLSE? At this point, he's a lame duck GM.
                            oh, no worries man. i wasnt implying that you wanted BC fired, i was just saying that he does need a bit of credit given that he can flip around his mistakes and turn them into decent moves. i dont want to go into detail, just want to mention that most of his so-called mistake moves were essentially "could not get any worse" moves. he traded a disgruntled PG in TJ to J.O. and when that didnt pan out he traded an inury-prone J.O. for Marion who had an expiring contract. I dont think he's made a move that totally disadvantaged the raptors, but i may be wrong.

                            Im not sure how contracts work but IMO, for a GM, a 2 yr contract will not really allow a GM to produce anything, specially with a rebuilding team. 5 years would be the ideal length for a GM to see his moves come to fruition, so to speak. I think MLSE should give him 5 years, but if by the 2nd year he's still not making any strides with this team then that would be the time to fire him.

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                            • #29
                              I'd give him a two year extension. He needs to be re-evaluated after the 2012-2013 season.
                              -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                              -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

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                              • #30
                                tbihis wrote: View Post
                                oh, no worries man. i wasnt implying that you wanted BC fired, i was just saying that he does need a bit of credit given that he can flip around his mistakes and turn them into decent moves. i dont want to go into detail, just want to mention that most of his so-called mistake moves were essentially "could not get any worse" moves. he traded a disgruntled PG in TJ to J.O. and when that didnt pan out he traded an inury-prone J.O. for Marion who had an expiring contract. I dont think he's made a move that totally disadvantaged the raptors, but i may be wrong.

                                Im not sure how contracts work but IMO, for a GM, a 2 yr contract will not really allow a GM to produce anything, specially with a rebuilding team. 5 years would be the ideal length for a GM to see his moves come to fruition, so to speak. I think MLSE should give him 5 years, but if by the 2nd year he's still not making any strides with this team then that would be the time to fire him.
                                All I'm saying is that 5 year is too long. If he got the second term, that's 10 years as a GM of this franchise. Firing after the second season is simply not economical if he's going to command 5 Mil per year. The CBA is changing as well and until he's prepared to change his strategy (and become more frugal), it's not going to work. He reminds me of someone who should be running a large market team like New York for some reason (but that's probably because of his image / aura). I'll be honest in saying that Grunwald and his expertise in salary caps was really good at being a GM. He's had his fair share of failures but I like his approach better. I admire BC's willingness to go overseas, do more scouting, etc. But the majority of his moves have been bad. I really only like the Amir acquisition and signing. That's it. Just remember, 10 years to build this franchise into something if he gets the second term.
                                “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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