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Thread: Colangelo plan becoming more obvious with each move

  1. #21
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Again, this is not a "fire BC" thread response. What I'm questioning is his knack for fringe players while doing the swinging for the fences moves to address key areas of his team. Joe Johnson was a fringe player from Boston and we now know what that guy's impact is on Atlanta. It's just that 5 more years to see if things come to fruition is too long and he's had a crack at it already. He also isn't going to settle for a two year extension either (that's my problem with him - he wants his cake and eat it too). My point therefore is that he shouldn't be given an extension term that HE thinks he wants and needs to see his work through.

    Let's face it, if he's really wanted by this prganization, he should have been renewed a while ago. Everyone knows that the team is not going anywhere this year. Why the wait and see approach from MLSE? At this point, he's a lame duck GM.
    +1 Balls of steel, that is what I have been telling his supporters in Tim W. Moreover, Masai Ujiri is a new GM and he got a decent return for Carmelo Anthony(hoping he has a good draft this year for the double whammy), Sam Presti( a relatively new GM in OKC is pulling some sick trade moves and slowly turning that team into a championship contender a la San Antonio Spurs style) and Rich Cho(getting Wes Matthews last offseason, now getting Gerald Wallace without trading the franchise's prized pick in Nicolas Batum and they are Top 6 in the tough tough West without Camby, Oden and Brandon Roy - very impressive, I must say). Sometimes, brand GMs like BC are not good for franchises like the Raptors - get an Assistant GM from winning small market organizations like the San Antonio Spurs, Portland Trailblazers and Oklahoma City Thunder and I guarantee you, they can't do any worse than BC has done in 5 years. My 2 cents.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Why is it that there are so many people that just need to find someone to blame? It is either BC, Bargs, or Jose that take the most heat. People are celebrating Presti for a move that we have no idea how it will pan out....just like O'neal. If Perkins only plays one injury filled year there how does it look then, does OKC need to get rid of Presti?

    Bosh was and is not a top tier superstar, we all hoped he would be, but he just was not. I think the direction the team is heading is good, we have a young improving core, a good draft pick coming, and some assets and cap flexibility to continue to improve. I am willing to ride this out and see what we have over the next season or two.

  3. #23
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What was the common denominator for every roster shake up? Building around RuPaul.

    2006/07 was very successful until Garbo went down. 2008/09 and 200/10 were obviously not.

    This is the first rebuild - this is not another roster shake up.
    Was he really building around Chris Bosh? I find it unlimkely he would have drafted Bargnani if this was the case. One minute Bosh was the "cornerstone of the franchise" and the next he was "an expensive pair of handcuffs" all in BC's words. This year it was said that the intent was to rebuild and develop the youth, but that is only because the Chandler deal didn't get through otherwise that plan would have been altered while we battled to try and make the playoffs. A plan or vision is usually not fleeting and easily chnaged and altered.

    If Colangelo made the mistake of building around a player that shouldn't have been built around, isn't it his own doing? Is Bosh to blame for this? BC made the final decisions. Furthermore, he also didn't put the proper players around Bosh and that was evidenced in the poor records. In '06 when he got it right it was good, after that it was all bad, yet it is often made to seem like Bosh was holding him hostage on player personnel decisions.

    The past few days should indicate no matter who you are as a player a GM will ultimately decide where the franchsie is going and take ths steps to secure and protect its future as evidenced with Denver and Utah.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    The past few days should indicate no matter who you are as a player a GM will ultimately decide where the franchsie is going and take ths steps to secure and protect its future as evidenced with Denver and Utah.
    The past few days have served notice to the players they do not handcuff the franchises.

    Last summer served notice to the owners/GM's that they do not handcuff the players. The general consensus players would play where they could get the most guaranteed years and money was abolished last summer.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Colangelo has only one Major failure and that was trying to build a team around Bosh, which was hopeless. He's thrilled that Bosh is gone and now he can build his team the right way. A good GM is someone who's good at evaluating talent and finding hidden gems, so far so good, in my opinion.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The general consensus players would play where they could get the most guaranteed years and money was abolished last summer.
    I want to test that theory again under a CBA that isn't dysfunctional. For example, a hard cap of say $60mm with no restrictions (minimums or maximums) on individual salaries. If the Knicks had been able to offer Lebron $40mm/year for 10 years, I suspect that $15 and 6 from Miami wouldn't look so hot. From my perspective, that is really the one foolproof method of breaking up these "super-teams" - think Wade and Bosh would have taken $7mm each while Lebron was getting $35 or $40? Not a chance. The NBA owners will screw it up eventually but that can't be helped.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I want to test that theory again under a CBA that isn't dysfunctional. For example, a hard cap of say $60mm with no restrictions (minimums or maximums) on individual salaries. If the Knicks had been able to offer Lebron $40mm/year for 10 years, I suspect that $15 and 6 from Miami wouldn't look so hot. From my perspective, that is really the one foolproof method of breaking up these "super-teams" - think Wade and Bosh would have taken $7mm each while Lebron was getting $35 or $40? Not a chance. The NBA owners will screw it up eventually but that can't be helped.
    It will be interesting to see what changes the new CBA brings.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Again, this is not a "fire BC" thread response. What I'm questioning is his knack for fringe players while doing the swinging for the fences moves to address key areas of his team. Joe Johnson was a fringe player from Boston and we now know what that guy's impact is on Atlanta. It's just that 5 more years to see if things come to fruition is too long and he's had a crack at it already. He also isn't going to settle for a two year extension either (that's my problem with him - he wants his cake and eat it too). My point therefore is that he shouldn't be given an extension term that HE thinks he wants and needs to see his work through.

    Let's face it, if he's really wanted by this prganization, he should have been renewed a while ago. Everyone knows that the team is not going anywhere this year. Why the wait and see approach from MLSE? At this point, he's a lame duck GM.
    oh, no worries man. i wasnt implying that you wanted BC fired, i was just saying that he does need a bit of credit given that he can flip around his mistakes and turn them into decent moves. i dont want to go into detail, just want to mention that most of his so-called mistake moves were essentially "could not get any worse" moves. he traded a disgruntled PG in TJ to J.O. and when that didnt pan out he traded an inury-prone J.O. for Marion who had an expiring contract. I dont think he's made a move that totally disadvantaged the raptors, but i may be wrong.

    Im not sure how contracts work but IMO, for a GM, a 2 yr contract will not really allow a GM to produce anything, specially with a rebuilding team. 5 years would be the ideal length for a GM to see his moves come to fruition, so to speak. I think MLSE should give him 5 years, but if by the 2nd year he's still not making any strides with this team then that would be the time to fire him.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    I'd give him a two year extension. He needs to be re-evaluated after the 2012-2013 season.
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  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    oh, no worries man. i wasnt implying that you wanted BC fired, i was just saying that he does need a bit of credit given that he can flip around his mistakes and turn them into decent moves. i dont want to go into detail, just want to mention that most of his so-called mistake moves were essentially "could not get any worse" moves. he traded a disgruntled PG in TJ to J.O. and when that didnt pan out he traded an inury-prone J.O. for Marion who had an expiring contract. I dont think he's made a move that totally disadvantaged the raptors, but i may be wrong.

    Im not sure how contracts work but IMO, for a GM, a 2 yr contract will not really allow a GM to produce anything, specially with a rebuilding team. 5 years would be the ideal length for a GM to see his moves come to fruition, so to speak. I think MLSE should give him 5 years, but if by the 2nd year he's still not making any strides with this team then that would be the time to fire him.
    All I'm saying is that 5 year is too long. If he got the second term, that's 10 years as a GM of this franchise. Firing after the second season is simply not economical if he's going to command 5 Mil per year. The CBA is changing as well and until he's prepared to change his strategy (and become more frugal), it's not going to work. He reminds me of someone who should be running a large market team like New York for some reason (but that's probably because of his image / aura). I'll be honest in saying that Grunwald and his expertise in salary caps was really good at being a GM. He's had his fair share of failures but I like his approach better. I admire BC's willingness to go overseas, do more scouting, etc. But the majority of his moves have been bad. I really only like the Amir acquisition and signing. That's it. Just remember, 10 years to build this franchise into something if he gets the second term.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Please, oh please can everyone stop praising Presti like he is head and shoulders above other GM's. He had a bonafied mega star fall into his lap when Portland picked Oden and since then everyone thinks he has a clue as to what he is doing. If Portland had picked Durant and Seattle gad gone with Oden, which I assure you they would have, nobody would have ever uttered Presti's name in praise.

    Unless, you're the Lakers or San Antonio....and even San Antonio was lucky as hell to end up with the number one pick in the year that Duncan entered the draft (I seem to recall Boston had the worst record) then all other GM's are not deserving of that much praise that many individuals on this site give Presti. Atleast the GM's from the Lakers and San Antonio knew how to keep the team at a top tier for an extended period of time.

    My point is that being a successful GM takes a lot of luck. So don't be too hard on BC because he hasn't gotten lucky yet, and don't be too ready to praise the next GM whom receives a franchise player land in their lap.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    Colangelo has only one Major failure and that was trying to build a team around Bosh, which was hopeless. He's thrilled that Bosh is gone and now he can build his team the right way. A good GM is someone who's good at evaluating talent and finding hidden gems, so far so good, in my opinion.
    I agree - he is giving up old garbage in a effort to find something young that is valued low but stock could rise.
    The dude has stones and is very pro-active.

    LIST (A) Nucleus: Derozen Davis Amir Weems
    LIST (B) Assets to be traded: Calderon Bargs Reggie Barbosa 9 mill
    LIST (C) Buy out: Klieza
    the rest of the players are being evaluated and could go in list (A) or (B)

    If one of these players gets some PT and shows promise in remaining 20 or so games they could be bundled in a package and sold higher (buy low sell high) quickest way to improve.

    Right now the Raptors have the dubious distinction of being able to offer something that most teams don't. NBA minutes. Its a commodity. That's why all it takes is a boo-boo and they shut down players like Weems Barbosa Kleiza Evans for prolonged periods of time (keep those minutes open for auditions... and tank).

    I really believe PG is foremost on BC's off season todo list - I would not be surprised if he move Ed Davis and this years first round pick to get Ky Irving or some other front line PG. If he does that Reggie could be resigned and then - PF is the one position raptors seem to have the most depth at with both Kleiza and JJohnson being able to play their behind Amir and Reggie.

    Once that is done All you need to do is find a team looking for offense who has a strong defensive rebounding center and ship out bargs. He could be the highest scoring Center in the league by seasons end. Raps need D and rebounding.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    I agree - he is giving up old garbage in a effort to find something young that is valued low but stock could rise.
    The dude has stones and is very pro-active.

    LIST (A) Nucleus: Derozen Davis Amir Weems
    LIST (B) Assets to be traded: Calderon Bargs Reggie Barbosa 9 mill
    LIST (C) Buy out: Klieza
    the rest of the players are being evaluated and could go in list (A) or (B)

    If one of these players gets some PT and shows promise in remaining 20 or so games they could be bundled in a package and sold higher (buy low sell high) quickest way to improve.

    Right now the Raptors have the dubious distinction of being able to offer something that most teams don't. NBA minutes. Its a commodity. That's why all it takes is a boo-boo and they shut down players like Weems Barbosa Kleiza Evans for prolonged periods of time (keep those minutes open for auditions... and tank).
    I really believe PG is foremost on BC's off season todo list - I would not be surprised if he move Ed Davis and this years first round pick to get Ky Irving or some other front line PG. If he does that Reggie could be resigned and then - PF is the one position raptors seem to have the most depth at with both Kleiza and JJohnson being able to play their behind Amir and Reggie.

    Once that is done All you need to do is find a team looking for offense who has a strong defensive rebounding center and ship out bargs. He could be the highest scoring Center in the league by seasons end. Raps need D and rebounding.
    I do not think Weems is part of the nucleus. He was the nucleus of an advertising campaign. He had every opportunity this season and blew it - big time. I will be shocked if he is brought back on anything more than a minimum contract for the third string.

    Trading Ed Davis would be a colossal mistake, IMO, even to get Kyrie. He brings exactly what you said - rebounding and D. Another summer in the weight room and the experience of an NBA season should make him nasty next year.

    Shut down players? Weems is not a guy who is shut down, if anything they play him more if they want to tank. Barbosa has a wrist that needs surgery, a bum shoulder, and had a pulled hammy. Evans broke his foot. Kleiza had micro-fracture knee surgery. These are not boo-boo injuries.

    As for bringing back Evans, he'll be 30 next year and has played 43 games in the last 2 seasons. He won't be back unless, much like Weems, it is a minimum contract on the third string.

  14. #34
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Please, oh please can everyone stop praising Presti like he is head and shoulders above other GM's. He had a bonafied mega star fall into his lap when Portland picked Oden and since then everyone thinks he has a clue as to what he is doing. If Portland had picked Durant and Seattle gad gone with Oden, which I assure you they would have, nobody would have ever uttered Presti's name in praise.

    Unless, you're the Lakers or San Antonio....and even San Antonio was lucky as hell to end up with the number one pick in the year that Duncan entered the draft (I seem to recall Boston had the worst record) then all other GM's are not deserving of that much praise that many individuals on this site give Presti. Atleast the GM's from the Lakers and San Antonio knew how to keep the team at a top tier for an extended period of time.

    My point is that being a successful GM takes a lot of luck. So don't be too hard on BC because he hasn't gotten lucky yet, and don't be too ready to praise the next GM whom receives a franchise player land in their lap.
    We can deny that luck has something to do with GM's performances - but that is only in the draft. Yes, as a GM, you get dealt a good hand in getting a superstar, your job as a GM is to surround him with a decent supprting cast(which is why we are giving Sam Presti praises, why? because OKC had only one fatal weakness to being a championship contender or making noise in the playoffs - size which Sam Presti tried to shore up in the draft by trading his draft picks to draft a center in Cole Aldrich, when he noticed his draft pick was a bust, he pulled the Kendrick Perkins- Nazr Mohammed tandem at the trade deadline). We can not ignore such obvious efforts from Sam Presti and besides, BC also had a perennial All-star in Bosh(yes, he was not a franchise player but if he had a decent supporting cast - we will make the playoffs every year. Just look at the Portland Trailblazers, no franchise player(some say Lamarcus Aldridge is but we all know he is not, LA is only just having a career season(22.4 ppg(higher than Bargs) and 9.0 rpg(still rebounds!, hearing Bargs! - you can still score but your job as a big man is to rebound and defend) but veteran players in Andre Miller and Marcus Camby and a solid draft pick at the wing in Nicolas Batum)). BC traded for one-dimensional players as the supporting cast for Bosh and drafted Bargs(how do you not know as a GM that a wing-big man tandem does it in the NBA? if Brandon Roy had knee issues at the time, Rudy Gay could have been drafted by trading down the draft pick if BC felt Rudy Gay was not a #1 pick) - that is all on BC right there. Sam Presti is not making the same mistakes BC made and guess what - he was an assistant GM with the San Antonio Spurs so he is a relatively new GM. For a new GM (I am not surprised, Masai Ujiri and Rich Cho are doing well as assistant GMs into new GMs) to make solid draft picks(even to the second round where BC hates to draft now in getting Serge Ibaka) and pull off trades to get two way players(Thabo Sefolosha, Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed) to support his superstar, he deserves my praises. Food for thought.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    We can deny that luck has something to do with GM's performances - but that is only in the draft. Yes, as a GM, you get dealt a good hand in getting a superstar, your job as a GM is to surround him with a decent supprting cast(which is why we are giving Sam Presti praises, why? because OKC had only one fatal weakness to being a championship contender or making noise in the playoffs - size which Sam Presti tried to shore up in the draft by trading his draft picks to draft a center in Cole Aldrich, when he noticed his draft pick was a bust, he pulled the Kendrick Perkins- Nazr Mohammed tandem at the trade deadline). We can not ignore such obvious efforts from Sam Presti and besides, BC also had a perennial All-star in Bosh(yes, he was not a franchise player but if he had a decent supporting cast - we will make the playoffs every year. Just look at the Portland Trailblazers, no franchise player(some say Lamarcus Aldridge is but we all know he is not, LA is only just having a career season(22.4 ppg(higher than Bargs) and 9.0 rpg(still rebounds!, hearing Bargs! - you can still score but your job as a big man is to rebound and defend) but veteran players in Andre Miller and Marcus Camby and a solid draft pick at the wing in Nicolas Batum)). BC traded for one-dimensional players as the supporting cast for Bosh and drafted Bargs(how do you not know as a GM that a wing-big man tandem does it in the NBA? if Brandon Roy had knee issues at the time, Rudy Gay could have been drafted by trading down the draft pick if BC felt Rudy Gay was not a #1 pick) - that is all on BC right there. Sam Presti is not making the same mistakes BC made and guess what - he was an assistant GM with the San Antonio Spurs so he is a relatively new GM. For a new GM (I am not surprised, Masai Ujiri and Rich Cho are doing well as assistant GMs into new GMs) to make solid draft picks(even to the second round where BC hates to draft now in getting Serge Ibaka) and pull off trades to get two way players(Thabo Sefolosha, Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed) to support his superstar, he deserves my praises. Food for thought.
    Presti is a good GM, no denying that.

    However some of the arguments above are totally with the benefit of hindsight. Ibaka was a first round draft pick (24th) that has taken 3 yeras to develop. He built the team with #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks over 3 drafts (2007-2009). Why does no one question picking Harden? Right because it was a weak draft and no one, except Evans and Curry who arguably would be a duplicate of Westbrook, in the top 10 after 3 developed in to anything. Harden was a #3 pick and is averaging 10pts per game on 41% shooting. Calling Sefolosha or Perkins two way players is questionable - Perkins is a garbage man who does it very well and Sefolosha averages 5.5pts for his career and 5.0pts this year. The reality is OKC got lucky in draft positioning and Presti did a good job selecting with 2 of the 4 top five picks in 3 years being franchise calibre players, 1 border-line All-star, and one bench player. Presti then did a great job shedding contracts and getting very lucky being able to take Kurt Thomas off Phoenix in one of the grossest salary dumps ever that netted SEA/OKC 2 first round drafts picks (Ibaka and Bledsoe (traded for LAC 1st round pick)). For all the talk of what BC got for Bosh, Presti only manged a second round draft pick for his best player in Rashard Lewis in 2007.

    As for him trading draft picks to move up and take Aldrich, realize he was a bust, and move to get Perkins: how is that any different than BC making his mistakes and cleaning them up? There is no guarantee Perkins works out. What if he blows out his knee again? What if he doesn't gel? What if he becomes a cancer? The deal hasn't work out yet. BC has taken his two biggest mistakes and made something out of them. JO turned in to Hedo which turned in to Barbosa. BC didn't hang his head and stick to the plan, he sent them away when it was clear it would not work out. Despite everything the Raps were 5th in the east at ASG last year with the one of the best records in the league since late December. The players quit as there was no leader and the supposed leader was and is a shim.

    For the Pritchard lovers out there, he drafted Roy when he could have had Gay. What a fool! Hardly. 8 other teams including the Raptors passed over Gay. Examples like this are cherry-picking history when there are countless other examples over the course of history supporting the stance taken by the GM's at the time. He also picked Oden with all his health history but yet that is not his fault? Until this year, Miller was considered a bust and a waste of cap space they had (3 years, 21M, team option 3rd). What about the pick of JJ, trade for Bayless? Hindsight draft Roy and worse yet signing to a max extension. What about the Darius Miles fiasco? Hardly draft picks or moves that worked out. A lot of the success in Portland could quite easily be attributed to McMillan. People love to highlight the success of other GM's and forget their mistakes or worthless moves yet focus on the negatives of our own while forgetting the success (DeRozan, Davis, Amir, 2007). *EDIT* By the way, who did Hedo renege an agreement with? Ah yes, Kevin Pritchard in Portland before he TOR.

    I am struggling to keep this all together and the more I type the more I realize how hypocritical the whole discussion is.

    BC took a lottery team in his first year and made them Atlantic Conference champs - a phenomenal turnaround. They then made the playoffs in 2008. They did not make the playoffs the last 2 years despite great attempts with bold moves. They were 5th overall in the East 2/3rd through and then tanked the rest of the season losing the playoffs on the last day. That team is now dismantled and a proper rebuild is underway for the first time under BC's tenure. Despite this being the first year of a full fledged rebuild there are 2 legit 18-20ppg scorers, 2 young PF's who are capable of a double/double any given night and could arguably average it over a season with more time, they will have a top 5 pick this year, and cap space along with a misfit of young talent that could develop in to solid role players or assets for trades (young players with upside on rookie deals are easy to move).

    Now look at Presti: #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks in his first 3 years as GM, records of 20-62, 23-59, 50-32. So his first 2 years there is no competing for anything besides league doghouse and the young talent comes together and after 2 seasons are very competitive.

    My view is BC and the Raps are at the 20-62 season in comparison to Presti and OKC without the benefit of having a rookie #2 and #5 picks on their team.

    I've thought many things of the posts trashing BC (and I do think it is time for him to put up or shut up with the first rebuild ever attempted by him) but this is the first time I've ever picked up on the hypocricy of wanting a winning team but not willing to go through the losing it often takes to develop one.

    Presti's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/sam_presti.htm
    Colangelo's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager..._colangelo.htm
    Pritchard's GM career: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Pritchard
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Feb 26th, 2011 at 03:55 PM.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Colangelo is not the problem, if this team is still a lottery team in 2013 than its time to move on.

    I'm envious of Philadelphia and specifically Doug Collins. He took a dysfunctional young team from the basement to the playoffs ,without much of a contribution from his #2 overall pick and offseason acquisitions.

    I am a huge fan of Triano, great person and basketball mind, but the players need a coach that demands respect and has a history of developing young talent. Ironically, I think we need Sam Mitchell or some equivalent to coach this team again.

    Sam demanded respect, got his teams to work hard, and had a system that made the most of the talent that he was given . Unfortunately, the players soured on him and he may have been too harsh on some of the young players, like Bargnani.

    Teams that have built through the draft are teams like Portland, OKC, Philadelphia, Indiana, Atlanta, Washington, LAC, Minnesota, Sacramento, San Antonio.

    With the exception of Philadelphia and Indiana each of those teams core players are top 5 picks. Also, those teams weren't overnight successes (some still aren't). So, its a crapshoot. You need a young core, complementary veterans and a good coach. Its not an easy formula.

    Toronto needs one more star player, a new coach and some cheap veterans.
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  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    **I bumped this up because there were no replies from anyone. I am not singling out smushmush. I never thought in terms of the idea of hypocricy when BC gets compared to Pritchard or Presti. I'd like to know what other Raps fans think about the conclusions I came to. (Post is the orginal, just copied and pasted)**


    smushmush wrote:
    We can deny that luck has something to do with GM's performances - but that is only in the draft. Yes, as a GM, you get dealt a good hand in getting a superstar, your job as a GM is to surround him with a decent supprting cast(which is why we are giving Sam Presti praises, why? because OKC had only one fatal weakness to being a championship contender or making noise in the playoffs - size which Sam Presti tried to shore up in the draft by trading his draft picks to draft a center in Cole Aldrich, when he noticed his draft pick was a bust, he pulled the Kendrick Perkins- Nazr Mohammed tandem at the trade deadline). We can not ignore such obvious efforts from Sam Presti and besides, BC also had a perennial All-star in Bosh(yes, he was not a franchise player but if he had a decent supporting cast - we will make the playoffs every year. Just look at the Portland Trailblazers, no franchise player(some say Lamarcus Aldridge is but we all know he is not, LA is only just having a career season(22.4 ppg(higher than Bargs) and 9.0 rpg(still rebounds!, hearing Bargs! - you can still score but your job as a big man is to rebound and defend) but veteran players in Andre Miller and Marcus Camby and a solid draft pick at the wing in Nicolas Batum)). BC traded for one-dimensional players as the supporting cast for Bosh and drafted Bargs(how do you not know as a GM that a wing-big man tandem does it in the NBA? if Brandon Roy had knee issues at the time, Rudy Gay could have been drafted by trading down the draft pick if BC felt Rudy Gay was not a #1 pick) - that is all on BC right there. Sam Presti is not making the same mistakes BC made and guess what - he was an assistant GM with the San Antonio Spurs so he is a relatively new GM. For a new GM (I am not surprised, Masai Ujiri and Rich Cho are doing well as assistant GMs into new GMs) to make solid draft picks(even to the second round where BC hates to draft now in getting Serge Ibaka) and pull off trades to get two way players(Thabo Sefolosha, Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed) to support his superstar, he deserves my praises. Food for thought.
    Presti is a good GM, no denying that.
    However some of the arguments above are totally with the benefit of hindsight. Ibaka was a first round draft pick (24th) that has taken 3 yeras to develop. He built the team with #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks over 3 drafts (2007-2009). Why does no one question picking Harden? Right because it was a weak draft and no one, except Evans and Curry who arguably would be a duplicate of Westbrook, in the top 10 after 3 developed in to anything. Harden was a #3 pick and is averaging 10pts per game on 41% shooting. Calling Sefolosha or Perkins two way players is questionable - Perkins is a garbage man who does it very well and Sefolosha averages 5.5pts for his career and 5.0pts this year. The reality is OKC got lucky in draft positioning and Presti did a good job selecting with 2 of the 4 top five picks in 3 years being franchise calibre players, 1 border-line All-star, and one bench player. Presti then did a great job shedding contracts and getting very lucky being able to take Kurt Thomas off Phoenix in one of the grossest salary dumps ever that netted SEA/OKC 2 first round drafts picks (Ibaka and Bledsoe (traded for LAC 1st round pick)). For all the talk of what BC got for Bosh, Presti only manged a second round draft pick for his best player in Rashard Lewis in 2007.

    As for him trading draft picks to move up and take Aldrich, realize he was a bust, and move to get Perkins: how is that any different than BC making his mistakes and cleaning them up? There is no guarantee Perkins works out. What if he blows out his knee again? What if he doesn't gel? What if he becomes a cancer? The deal hasn't work out yet. BC has taken his two biggest mistakes and made something out of them. JO turned in to Hedo which turned in to Barbosa. BC didn't hang his head and stick to the plan, he sent them away when it was clear it would not work out. Despite everything the Raps were 5th in the east at ASG last year with the one of the best records in the league since late December. The players quit as there was no leader and the supposed leader was and is a shim.

    For the Pritchard lovers out there, he drafted Roy when he could have had Gay. What a fool! Hardly. 8 other teams including the Raptors passed over Gay. Examples like this are cherry-picking history when there are countless other examples over the course of history supporting the stance taken by the GM's at the time. He also picked Oden with all his health history but yet that is not his fault? Until this year, Miller was considered a bust and a waste of cap space they had (3 years, 21M, team option 3rd). What about the pick of JJ, trade for Bayless? Hindsight draft Roy and worse yet signing to a max extension. What about the Darius Miles fiasco? Hardly draft picks or moves that worked out. A lot of the success in Portland could quite easily be attributed to McMillan. People love to highlight the success of other GM's and forget their mistakes or worthless moves yet focus on the negatives of our own while forgetting the success (DeRozan, Davis, Amir, 2007). *EDIT* By the way, who did Hedo renege an agreement with? Ah yes, Kevin Pritchard in Portland before he TOR.

    I am struggling to keep this all together and the more I type the more I realize how hypocritical the whole discussion is.

    BC took a lottery team in his first year and made them Atlantic Conference champs - a phenomenal turnaround. They then made the playoffs in 2008. They did not make the playoffs the last 2 years despite great attempts with bold moves. They were 5th overall in the East 2/3rd through and then tanked the rest of the season losing the playoffs on the last day. That team is now dismantled and a proper rebuild is underway for the first time under BC's tenure. Despite this being the first year of a full fledged rebuild there are 2 legit 18-20ppg scorers, 2 young PF's who are capable of a double/double any given night and could arguably average it over a season with more time, they will have a top 5 pick this year, and cap space along with a misfit of young talent that could develop in to solid role players or assets for trades (young players with upside on rookie deals are easy to move).

    Now look at Presti: #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks in his first 3 years as GM, records of 20-62, 23-59, 50-32. So his first 2 years there is no competing for anything besides league doghouse and the young talent comes together and after 2 seasons are very competitive.

    My view is BC and the Raps are at the 20-62 season in comparison to Presti and OKC without the benefit of having a rookie #2 and #5 picks on their team.

    I've thought many things of the posts trashing BC (and I do think it is time for him to put up or shut up with the first rebuild ever attempted by him) but this is the first time I've ever picked up on the hypocricy of wanting a winning team but not willing to go through the losing it often takes to develop one.

    Presti's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/sam_presti.htm
    Colangelo's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager..._colangelo.htm
    Pritchard's GM career: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Pritchard

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star
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    @Matt52:

    Agree 100%.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Rookie Seeten's Avatar
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    Quote Hassan wrote: View Post
    this draft is a bad draft to have a high pick in most players wont come out due to the lockout
    Dont worry, we'll have a really high pick next year, too.

  20. #40
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I do not think Weems is part of the nucleus. He was the nucleus of an advertising campaign. He had every opportunity this season and blew it - big time. I will be shocked if he is brought back on anything more than a minimum contract for the third string.

    Trading Ed Davis would be a colossal mistake, IMO, even to get Kyrie. He brings exactly what you said - rebounding and D. Another summer in the weight room and the experience of an NBA season should make him nasty next year.

    Shut down players? Weems is not a guy who is shut down, if anything they play him more if they want to tank. Barbosa has a wrist that needs surgery, a bum shoulder, and had a pulled hammy. Evans broke his foot. Kleiza had micro-fracture knee surgery. These are not boo-boo injuries.

    As for bringing back Evans, he'll be 30 next year and has played 43 games in the last 2 seasons. He won't be back unless, much like Weems, it is a minimum contract on the third string.
    Weems has a split personality and is his own worse enemy. In order to break through last season he committed himself to conditioning, discipline and improving his shot. And was a dynamic player worthy of starting. But with that success came a reversion to his old shot selection and very spotty play.

    Big question marks beside Weems - who is he? How will it effect DeRozen if he does not return?

    I am a huge Ed Davis fan. Huge! But until this team has a point guard who can:
    (a) get his own shot
    (b) break down a defense
    (c) defend the point
    Raps are going no where. Calderon's shot has been off and his drive is far too slow to be effective.
    Maybe the deal is Davis + Calderon for ... PG dunno but for what this team needs it wont come cheap.

    As far as shut down: Weems was able to play long before he came back as is Reggie. And now that weems is back they have found a way to keep him from playing major minutes in a contract year... You know BC is in contact with the agents of Klieza Weems Evans on the regular.

    Evens could be back and maybe should be back if the price is right. The consummate leader who will make practices tough and oh - by the way is one of the best interior defenders & rebounded in the league when healthy. If the raps want to brand themselfs as defensive hard working identity - Evans is the guy who will reinforce that message every day independent of what any coach says.

    Team could be very young heading in to next fall...
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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