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Thread: 2011 Draft Rumors & Discussion

  1. #801
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Here's a quote I got from that article:


    Does this remind you of another UConn alum, New York-raised, thought to be a PG, but plays more of a SG, quick, volume shooter, played insane ball on UConn's run to a national title about 6 seasons go and shot up the draft charts?
    You talking about Marcus Williams or Ben Gordon?

    And ya I read that as well; still not sure I agree with it.

    Kemba is 6'-0". Some have him 6'-1". Some have him 5'-11".
    If you've been watching the last MANY UConn games, (Tournament games and Championship run) Kemba has taken over.
    Leading his team to victory. He is a leader, a dynamic guard, clutch shooter.
    1 of 4 players nominated to 'POY'.
    Led UConn to 5 straight wins over ELITE competition for the Big East Championship.

    Why is it that when a PG is a capable scorer, he's labeled a SG?
    Kemba has shown to be VERY capable of dishing out the ball, finding his teammates, communicating defense, freakish athletic ability, leading his team, taking the big shots and making the right decisions (his shot selection has come into question, but lately he's done it all right.)

    Anyway, I can see him being an 'Allen Iverson' type player. (Obviously not as amazing as Iverson, but you get it.) Legit PG, but perhaps a little more skilled at scoring than most PGs he's playing against. I don't see him playing SG much in the NBA.
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:38 PM.

  2. #802
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Some of the greatest PGs of all-time have been on the small side. Isiah Thomas, John Stockton and Tim Hardaway. Today, Chris Paul is a prime example of a PG who is small in stature. Walker is the only PG in the draft that has that Rose/Wall athleticism that is being coveted in this NBA era.

  3. #803
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Walker is the only PG in the draft that has that Rose/Wall athleticism that is being coveted in this NBA era.
    Fully Agree.

  4. #804
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    You talking about Marcus Williams or Ben Gordon?

    And ya I read that as well; still not sure I agree with it.

    Kemba is 6'-0". Some have him 6'-1". Some have him 5'-11".
    If you've been watching the last MANY UConn games, (Tournament games and Championship run) Kemba has taken over.
    Leading his team to victory. He is a leader, a dynamic guard, clutch shooter.
    1 of 4 players nominated to 'POY'.
    Led UConn to 5 straight wins over ELITE competition for the Big East Championship.

    Why is it that when a PG is a capable scorer, he's labeled a SG?
    Kemba has shown to be VERY capable of dishing out the ball, finding his teammates, communicating defense, freakish athletic ability, leading his team, taking the big shots and making the right decisions (his shot selection has come into question, but lately he's done it all right.)

    Anyway, I can see him being an 'Allen Iverson' type player. (Obviously not as amazing as Iverson, but you get it.) Legit PG, but perhaps a little more skilled at scoring than most PGs he's playing against. I don't see him playing SG much in the NBA.
    I was talking Ben Gordon. Marcus Williams was a pure PG and was from California.

    This is what I gathered from Gordon's career at UConn (from Wikipedia, not exactly the best site to quote, but I'm kinda lazy right now to dig up info and I'm hacking myself to death at this computer):

    As a freshman at Connecticut, Gordon ranked second on the team in scoring (12.6 ppg), despite coming off the bench for most of the season. He hit the game winning 3-point field goal against Villanova in the Big East Tournament. As a sophomore Gordon averaged a team-leading 19.5 points (which ranked 50th in the nation) and also led the Huskies with 156 total assists, which earned Gordon Second Team All-Big East honors.

    In Gordon's junior and final year at Connecticut, he averaged a team-leading 20.5 points (again ranked 50th in the nation), 4.7 rebounds and 4.5 assists. He also connected on 104 three-pointers, the second-highest single season total in Connecticut's history. Gordon set a Big East Tournament record with 81 total points, earning the tournaments' Most Outstanding Performer honors. Gordon also earned Most Outstanding Player of the Phoenix Regional honors in the NCAA Tournament. He also led the tournament field with 127 total points, as he helped lead the Huskies to the NCAA Championship
    It sounds somewhat similar. At least to me it does. I'm disputing that Walker won't be a solid pro. I think he will, but do we really want a shoot-first combo guard running the point?

    Most people viewed Gordon as a point guard when he came out of UConn. I remember him killing the competition at the combines/workouts. He was scheduled to go top 10 prior to the workouts, but because of the fantastic workouts, he went to #3.

  5. #805
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I was talking Ben Gordon. Marcus Williams was a pure PG and was from California.

    This is what I gathered from Gordon's career at UConn (from Wikipedia, not exactly the best site to quote, but I'm kinda lazy right now to dig up info and I'm hacking myself to death at this computer):



    It sounds somewhat similar. At least to me it does. I'm disputing that Walker won't be a solid pro. I think he will, but do we really want a shoot-first combo guard running the point?

    Most people viewed Gordon as a point guard when he came out of UConn. I remember him killing the competition at the combines/workouts. He was scheduled to go top 10 prior to the workouts, but because of the fantastic workouts, he went to #3.
    Ben Gordon is from England isn't he? But ya, I guess he grew up in New York.

    But anyway, Ben Gordon was MUCH more of a shooter than Kemba is. I don't remember Gordon EVER being considered an NBA PG. Kemba is much more diverse and capable ball handler, attacker, penetrator, passer, defender etc. In my opinion. And I watched Gordon quite a bit.

    I don't view Kemba as a "shoot-first combo guard".. but I guess that is where we disagree.

    He is a leader who is capable of taking over a game when he needs too, if that needs to be seen as 'shoot-first' then I guess I'm saying we do. But he is more than comfortable defering to teammates and getting others involved ala Bucknell (18 points 12 assists 8 rebounds.) He is a HIGH motor player, that very few players have. For your on court leader to exhibit confidence and swagger and capability to back that up is a BIG plus for any team. Not to mention the kid is a menace on defense.

    Deron Williams shoots ENOUGH shots. Is he a 'shoot-first' PG?
    Or does he just do what he has too to win the game?

    ADD: And thats all you can respond to of my post? Not to be pushy or anything, I was just looking forward to more I guess. Haha
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 08:06 AM.

  6. #806
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    Notes on Perry Jones from DX:
    The weakest part of Jones' game clearly lies on the defensive end. He's shockingly unproductive from a statistical standpoint, averaging an alarmingly low number of blocks and steals every game, and very few rebounds.

    Of the 90 NCAA prospects currently classified as power forwards in our database, Jones ranks 78th in defensive rebounding on a per-minute basis, which is extremely disappointing considering his physical tools and the fact that none of his teammates are particularly prolific in this category. He shows fairly poor awareness here, often failing to box out opponents and doesn't look very instinctive or energetic in the way he pursues loose balls.

    These attributes definitely translate to the rest of his defensive game, where Jones clearly lacks toughness and activity. He regularly gets lost off the ball, being a step slow to react to things happening on the floor and not putting enough work in early in possessions to stop opponents from getting the ball in a favorable position. Physical players move him around the paint fairly easily and Jones doesn't always respond the way you'd hope. He often allows himself to get outhustled and outworked.

    Beyond his poor fundamentals, Jones doesn't seem to be the most contact-loving player in the world. He tends to shy away from putting a body on opponents and isn't one to dive on the floor for loose balls. With his size, length, quickness and ability to get in a low stance, Jones has all the tools to be an excellent defender and rebounder down the road.


    From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...#ixzz1HIxgjLcN
    http://www.draftexpress.com


    Yikes. He actually sounds more frustrating than Bargs (ie. even more athletic, but even worse defensively).


    Also rumors floating that Harrison Barnes might stay at UNC:
    http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/featu...ate%3d20110321

    If Barnes does not declare for the draft, that would seriously suck for the Raps.

  7. #807
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    I just want to add that Gordon was pretty darn good with Chicago, which is why Detroit splashed so much money. Obviously he hasn't been very decent in Detroit, but he was not great, but good in Chicago.

  8. #808
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Kemba Walker kicks ass. Most exciting player to watch in the tournament, I think. The thing about Walker no one has mentioned much is his defence. He's great on D. Lots of steals. And while he's short, he's also strong. Definitely a leader, a competitor and a clutch performer. All the qualities I mentioned in this post are desperately in need on the Raps.

  9. #809
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Kemba Walker kicks ass. Most exciting player to watch in the tournament, I think. The thing about Walker no one has mentioned much is his defence. He's great on D. Lots of steals. And while he's short, he's also strong. Definitely a leader, a competitor and a clutch performer. All the qualities I mentioned in this post are desperately in need on the Raps.
    Amen brother. I had mentioned it a bit, and its absolutely true. Dude is a menace. He's all over the place on D, but still within the system. Fun to watch.

  10. #810
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Yeah, you throw him on the floor with Ed, DeMar and JJ and suddenly Bargnani's big man inadequacies aren't as important... He would be a nice piece to add to the core and right now with what seems to a draft that will lose out Harrison Barnes and will see the Raptors probably selecting 5th or 6th, Kemba Walker definitely comes into range.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Kemba Walker kicks ass. Most exciting player to watch in the tournament, I think. The thing about Walker no one has mentioned much is his defence. He's great on D. Lots of steals. And while he's short, he's also strong. Definitely a leader, a competitor and a clutch performer. All the qualities I mentioned in this post are desperately in need on the Raps.
    Kemba is starting to grow on me. His assist to turnover, for college ball, is really good. Plus as mentioned, he is a lock down defender. In my opinion for PG's in the draft he is number 2 behind Irving. If he was drafted, I think Bayless or Calderon would have to be moved. I do not see Bayless being happy backing up a rookie.

  12. #812
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Yeah, you throw him on the floor with Ed, DeMar and JJ and suddenly Bargnani's big man inadequacies aren't as important... He would be a nice piece to add to the core and right now with what seems to a draft that will lose out Harrison Barnes and will see the Raptors probably selecting 5th or 6th, Kemba Walker definitely comes into range.
    Has Barnes said he is out for sure?

  13. #813
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Ben Gordon is from England isn't he? But ya, I guess he grew up in New York.

    But anyway, Ben Gordon was MUCH more of a shooter than Kemba is. I don't remember Gordon EVER being considered an NBA PG. Kemba is much more diverse and capable ball handler, attacker, penetrator, passer, defender etc. In my opinion. And I watched Gordon quite a bit.

    I don't view Kemba as a "shoot-first combo guard".. but I guess that is where we disagree.

    He is a leader who is capable of taking over a game when he needs too, if that needs to be seen as 'shoot-first' then I guess I'm saying we do. But he is more than comfortable defering to teammates and getting others involved ala Bucknell (18 points 12 assists 8 rebounds.) He is a HIGH motor player, that very few players have. For your on court leader to exhibit confidence and swagger and capability to back that up is a BIG plus for any team. Not to mention the kid is a menace on defense.

    Deron Williams shoots ENOUGH shots. Is he a 'shoot-first' PG?
    Or does he just do what he has too to win the game?

    ADD: And thats all you can respond to of my post? Not to be pushy or anything, I was just looking forward to more I guess. Haha
    BG was born in England, raised in New York (Mt. Vernon).

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Ben Gordon was MUCH more of a shooter than Kemba is
    You don't look at Walker as a shoot first/combo guard? The kid's taken 330 more shots than anyone else on the team. This season, he's taken over 100 more shots than Gordon did his final season. Both weren't considered passers, but both were the starting PG's on their respective UConn teams.


    Player GP MIN PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% FT% 3P%
    Ben Gordon 39 34.5 18.5 4.7 4.5 1.4 0.2 2.8 .434 .829 .433 (03-04)
    Kemba Walker 37 37.5 23.6 5.4 4.5 1.9 0.2 2.2 .431 .818 .340 (10-11)

    Player MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFFR DEFR REB AST TO STL BLK
    Ben Gordon 1346 239 551 141 170 104 240 723 34 150 184 176 108 53 6
    Kemba Walker 1386 286 663 234 286 69 203 875 51 150 201 167 81 71 6


    This is where we differ brother. You think Kemba is Allen Iverson like. I think the kid is Ben Gordon like. He'll come into the league by storm his first season, much like Gordon did. But over time, it'll tail off and he'll become a high volume shooter like Gordon. The kid isn't like Deron Williams or Chris Paul, when they were at Illinois and Wake Forest respectively. Hell, I wouldn't even say he's like TJ Ford when Ford came out of Texas. Those guys were actual floor generals. They score when needed to, but they have a high enough basketball IQ and court vision to make plays for other and to distribute the rock. I'm not saying Walker is a bad player or will be a bad pro, I just think he won't live up to the lofty expectations that some of you have for him.

  14. #814
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Ok, well by the sounds of it, most people here agree with me.

    Clearly you don't really watch Kemba or UConn play. Ben Gordon WAS a shooting guard. With unlimited range. Kemba doesn't take nearly as many shots as Gordon did from the outside or Midrange. He slashes to the basket and gets the fouls, gets the basket or dishes to an open teammate. He IS a general. Top 4 player in the country. Not sure where you are getting that from. He takes those shots because he needs to. Because those shots help put his team in a better position to win.
    And you again forget to mention the fact that he is an epic on ball defender.
    Something people around here have harped our Backcourt on for yeears.


    And to Matt, I don't think Barnes has said he's out for sure, he's only said he wants to win a title with UNC.. I think. So if they don't win it this year, then look for him to stay? Not sure really, but thats what I got out of it.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:39 AM.

  15. #815
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Has Barnes said he is out for sure?
    No, but this isn't a positive sign for Raptors fans this year if UNC doesn't win it:

    So when elite players like North Carolina freshman Harrison Barnes decide to stay in school, it's frustrating to say the least. Sure, Tar Heels fans should be excited to hear ESPN.com writer Chad Ford's report that Barnes will likely stay at Chapel Hill, but what kind of hope does that offer Cleveland Cavaliers fans?

    "He's the sort of guy who cares about more than just going to the NBA," a source told Ford. "He wants to leave his mark."
    Source: HoopsWorld.com

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    You don't look at Walker as a shoot first/combo guard? The kid's taken 330 more shots than anyone else on the team. This season, he's taken over 100 more shots than Gordon did his final season. Both weren't considered passers, but both were the starting PG's on their respective UConn teams.
    Walker takes the shots he does because he is so far and away their best player. Just because he's the point guard, doesn't mean he needs to make other players on his team shoot more than he does if he's their best shooter and scorer. Find the open players and get them their shots, but if they're not making their shots, and you're the most likely to, then you should be taking the most, regardless of your position.

    When UCONN won the game that put them in the finals of the regional tournament - this is coming from a commentator at the final - all the UCONN players stood and clapped for Walker when he made it back to the dressing room after the post-game interview. As if to say, "You're the reason we made it this far."

    I'm not saying this to argue how good he is, I'm saying this to argue how important his scoring is to his team, and how much his teammates absolutely have no issue with his shooting so much more than they do.

  17. #817
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    You can also argue that UCONN destroyed whoever they played last game (I forget who it was) because the team totally underestimated Walker's ability to pass. They collapsed on him and he had like 7 assists in 5 minutes or something stupid like that.

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    I want Harrison Barnes, I really think he'd fit in perfectly. We have Calderon for a few more years, to get the youngsters the ball. And then we can hopefully get a good young PG.

  19. #819
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Ok, well by the sounds of it, most people here agree with me.

    Clearly you don't really watch Kemba or UConn play. Ben Gordon WAS a shooting guard. With unlimited range. Kemba doesn't take nearly as many shots as Gordon did from the outside or Midrange. He slashes to the basket and gets the fouls, gets the basket or dishes to an open teammate. He IS a general. Top 4 player in the country. Not sure where you are getting that from. He takes those shots because he needs to. Because those shots help put his team in a better position to win.
    And you again forget to mention the fact that he is an epic on ball defender.
    Something people around here have harped our Backcourt on for yeears.


    And to Matt, I don't think Barnes has said he's out for sure, he's only said he wants to win a title with UNC.. I think. So if they don't win it this year, then look for him to stay? Not sure really, but thats what I got out of it.
    We can agree to disagree and that's perfectly alright, but don't give the BS argument how I don't watch Kemba, Joey. That's weak, and I would expect more out of you than to make a statement like that. If you got a crush for the guy, I totally understand it. I like Sullinger. That's my boy. You like Walker. That's cool, but come on, I laid the stats out there for you and you completely ignored it. The kid takes A LOT of shots. And not a whole lot of assists. ANd the A/T isn't what it should be for a good PG. Is Walker a good player? Sure, I don't dispute that in the least. Is he a leader for his team, sure. But is he a true floor general the way Williams, Paul or Ford was? No. I wouldn't even say he's as good as Ty Lawson. And the stats don't lie. Being an "epic" ball defender in college is one thing and a different thing in the pros. You know who were "epic" defenders in college? Jonny Flynn, Avery Bradley..and right now, both guys are finding it difficult to find PT. Again, we'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.
    Last edited by MangoKid; Tue Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:02 AM.

  20. #820
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    BG was born in England, raised in New York (Mt. Vernon).



    You don't look at Walker as a shoot first/combo guard? The kid's taken 330 more shots than anyone else on the team. This season, he's taken over 100 more shots than Gordon did his final season. Both weren't considered passers, but both were the starting PG's on their respective UConn teams.


    Player GP MIN PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% FT% 3P%
    Ben Gordon 39 34.5 18.5 4.7 4.5 1.4 0.2 2.8 .434 .829 .433 (03-04)
    Kemba Walker 37 37.5 23.6 5.4 4.5 1.9 0.2 2.2 .431 .818 .340 (10-11)

    Player MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFFR DEFR REB AST TO STL BLK
    Ben Gordon 1346 239 551 141 170 104 240 723 34 150 184 176 108 53 6
    Kemba Walker 1386 286 663 234 286 69 203 875 51 150 201 167 81 71 6


    This is where we differ brother. You think Kemba is Allen Iverson like. I think the kid is Ben Gordon like. He'll come into the league by storm his first season, much like Gordon did. But over time, it'll tail off and he'll become a high volume shooter like Gordon. The kid isn't like Deron Williams or Chris Paul, when they were at Illinois and Wake Forest respectively. Hell, I wouldn't even say he's like TJ Ford when Ford came out of Texas. Those guys were actual floor generals. They score when needed to, but they have a high enough basketball IQ and court vision to make plays for other and to distribute the rock. I'm not saying Walker is a bad player or will be a bad pro, I just think he won't live up to the lofty expectations that some of you have for him.
    I don't think they're the same at all and stats aren't the tell tale sign of who he is. I can go out and drop down Jameer Nelson's St.Joe's stats line and Walker would compare with that as well. Nelson and Gordon are a lot different. Watching the guy play should be evidence enough that he and Ben Gordon aren't the same guy. Here's the main difference. Ben Gordon was known for his scoring and not much more... Walker brings it on defense as well. He also takes care of the basketball. Walker no doubt takes a lot of shots right now but that's because it's offering his team the best chance to win. He's their leader, he's carrying them where ever they're going. He's a smart player, with an excellent handle, great athleticism and so why would we box him into a corner because his team is forced to rely on him to do it all?

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