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Thread: Is this summer time to move Kleiza and Amir Johnson ?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Amir's limited offence and few blocks will be more than replaced by Davis next year. Drafting Davis and his surprising growth has made Amir's role redundant. Add to the mix the possible emergence of Evans as a cheap rebounding machine and BC might just realize he made a mistake last summer.

    One good thing about BC is that he is quick to fix his last summer mistakes. We have seen that with alot of his signing over the last 5 years

    Amir, Pack your bag. You and Money Weems are out of T.O.
    How is he limited on offense?

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    How is he limited on offense?
    Have you watched any of his game ?
    His ball handling is not that great. He has very limited post moves. His shooting range is limited. I can go on and on but I think everyone agrees here that although Amir has made some improvement on his offensive games, he is still very limited on the end of the game as a solid starter in NBA.

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    There are a lot of bigs with handling probs, he has a good jumphook and can dunk and his midrange is very consistent. Not to mention he has the 3rd highest fg% in the league. I highly doubt people on here think Amir is limited offensively.

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    There are a lot of bigs with handling probs, he has a good jumphook and can dunk and his midrange is very consistent. Not to mention he has the 3rd highest fg% in the league. I highly doubt people on here think Amir is limited offensively.
    Yes, Amir has the same polished offensive game and ball handling of the other starting PF of the league like: Griffen, Bosh, Boozer, Dirik, Randolph. Alderige, Love, Gasol, KG, Smith, Duncen, West, Scola, Lee, Jefferson and ...
    Do I need to mention more names of the PFs which have a better offensive games than Amir ??
    Do you see the difference between this group and what Amir can do on the offensive end ?

    Now, Answer this question:

    Who do you think has more upside, Davis or Amir ?

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    why did BC sign Kleiza? Injury woes aside, was he in any scenario the right fit for the team? It boggled my mind when he signed him, and it continues to boggle my mind now.

    Good luck getting rid of his contract.

    As for Amir - depends how highly he is valued by other teams, and what they would be willing to give up. Amir is a quality back up on an elite team. As the starting PF of the Raps, arguably he is not as valuable as other pieces for this rebuilding team might be - a high pick or a combination of young players...I say keep him, unless something too good to pass up comes along.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    There is no proof Demar can knock down the 3. Just because he works hard doesn't mean he'll automatically get a consistent 3 point shooter, he's shooting 8% right now. That's insane, I know there were a lot of people comparing him to MJ's/Wade'd 3 point shooting but those guys never great 3 point shooters. They were always ok. This team needs a legit SG that can handle double teams and consistently make open 3/2s.
    I never said he would be a consistent 3 point shooter. just said he could be decent. its demars 2nd year man like relax.. you know were rebuilding right ? if you think demar will come out in the second year and hit 3's, hit 2's , command double teams, exploit double teams, i tihnk your living in a dream world. in 2 more year i dont see why derozan wouldnt be able to do these things. like i said, his work ethic and determination are very good. which means he very well could become all of those things i am saying. where as ur just saying he wont because he cant right now and u have no proof of that and taking hits.demars 21 man give it some time. not everyone is the nxt LBJ you know.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    I never said he would be a consistent 3 point shooter. just said he could be decent. its demars 2nd year man like relax.. you know were rebuilding right ? if you think demar will come out in the second year and hit 3's, hit 2's , command double teams, exploit double teams, i tihnk your living in a dream world. in 2 more year i dont see why derozan wouldnt be able to do these things. like i said, his work ethic and determination are very good. which means he very well could become all of those things i am saying. where as ur just saying he wont because he cant right now and u have no proof of that and taking hits.demars 21 man give it some time. not everyone is the nxt LBJ you know.
    Very few fans look out 2 years. Like everyone else they are driving down the 401 looking in the rearview mirror. "What have you done for me lately, sir?"

    Instant gratification is the name of the game which is why so few teams ever do a proper rebuild and see it through. The teams that do follow the plan usually, in my opinion, have a GM coming in new when the club is already at rock bottom.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    true enough, I get a little frustrated when reading such sad comments by some of the posters because its obvious they just dont get "it".They think real life is like NBA 2K11 or something and when they go on these pesimistic rants and others follow its just sad to see so many people agree on the same rubbish when its based on an opinion of a topic they are clearly not educated on.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    While I don't agree with what you said above , I will ask you the following question:

    Who do you think will be a better player withing 2 years , Amir or Davis ?
    You disagree that Amir is a better free-throw shooter this year? You disagree he's fouling less? You disagree he's developed a jumpshot? That explains a lot. What you are disagreeing with, my friend, is facts. Easily verifiable, amply documented facts.

    For example, this year, his free throw percentage is .796. Last year it was .638. This year he is fouling 5.2 times per 36 minutes. Last year he was fouling 6.3 times. These are facts. Look them up if you don't believe me -- try basketball-reference.com. Disagreeing with facts is a bad idea. It suggests you don't know what you are talking about.

    As for who I think will be a better player in 2 years, I suspect it will be Davis -- although not by much. And I would not be surprised at all if it is still Amir. But so what? We can afford both and play both.

    problem is that we can not afford all 3 of them if we want to get a great SF that can slash to the basket and make some noise. This team needs a STAR Player , a First Option to shoot it to the next level.

    Amir, AB and Davis are not that guy and Amir is now replaceable by Davis at a cheaper price.
    Wrong, we can afford all three. They are extremely affordable. Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. For the next three years (where we have ALL of them under guaranteed contracts), the MOST we pay them combined is $20,653,860 dollars. That is a bargain for completely filling your front court rotation.

    Now, it would be great to get a star SF. But it is not easy to sign those guys. The contracts we need to move are not the 3 forwards: Barbosa, Kleiza and Calderon are all worse fits with where the team is going than Amir. And we might not have to even get rid of any of them, because we will be 10 million-ish under the cap (if it is similar to before), not to mention 20 million under the luxury tax, which is enough to allow a solid starter at the three spot.
    Last edited by malefax; Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 01:03 AM. Reason: politeness

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    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    You disagree that Amir is a better free-throw shooter this year? You disagree he's fouling less? You disagree he's developed a jumpshot? That explains a lot. What you are disagreeing with, my friend, is facts. Easily verifiable, amply documented facts.

    For example, this year, his free throw percentage is .796. Last year it was .638. This year he is fouling 5.2 times per 36 minutes. Last year he was fouling 6.3 times. These are facts. Look them up if you don't believe me -- try basketball-reference.com. Disagreeing with facts is a bad idea. It suggests you don't know what you are talking about.

    As for who I think will be a better player in 2 years, I suspect it will be Davis -- although not by much. And I would not be surprised at all if it is still Amir. But so what? We can afford both and play both.



    Wrong, we can afford all three. They are extremely affordable. Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. For the next three years (where we have ALL of them under guaranteed contracts), the MOST we pay them combined is $20,653,860 dollars. That is a bargain for completely filling your front court rotation.

    Now, it would be great to get a star SF. But it is not easy to sign those guys. The contracts we need to move are not the 3 forwards: Barbosa, Kleiza and Calderon are all worse fits with where the team is going than Amir. And we might not have to even get rid of any of them, because we will be 10 million-ish under the cap (if it is similar to before), not to mention 20 million under the luxury tax, which is enough to allow a solid starter at the three spot.
    Love it! finally somone with a clue.

  11. #51
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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    I never said he would be a consistent 3 point shooter. just said he could be decent. its demars 2nd year man like relax.. you know were rebuilding right ? if you think demar will come out in the second year and hit 3's, hit 2's , command double teams, exploit double teams, i tihnk your living in a dream world. in 2 more year i dont see why derozan wouldnt be able to do these things. like i said, his work ethic and determination are very good. which means he very well could become all of those things i am saying. where as ur just saying he wont because he cant right now and u have no proof of that and taking hits.demars 21 man give it some time. not everyone is the nxt LBJ you know.
    I know it's year 2 but he shouldn't be playing SG. Shooting isn't his strength and it most likely never will be. He should gain some mass and play SF.

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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    People who think Amir is an overpaid roleplayer either haven't been watching this year or haven't been paying attention. Amir is 23 years old and he has improved his play a huge amount this year: he has cut down on fouling, he has added a mid-range shot, he has massively improved his free-throw shooting, and he has improved his ability to score in the post. He's underpaid for what he does, and he still has upside.

    There are 96 minutes a game available at the two 'big' spots. That means we can play 3 players 32 minutes a game. Amir + Ed + Bargs works as a rotation.

    If we can trade Amir for something better, fine: he's not indispensable. But he fits the teams current needs exactly.
    Listen Pal, no ones deny that he has made improvement so do not try to put word in my mouth. Improvement does mean anything when you were really bad before or it took you 5 years in the league to make them !!

    If I am fouling at rate of 6 foul in 10 minutes in 4 years in the league and come back next year and reduce that to 6 foul in 15 minutes, Is this a cause for celebration ?

    Amir is glorified garbage man who is putting up big numbers because he plays in a shitty team. Now, there is young stud with name of Davis with ton more upside than Amir and another garbage man who can do his work at much cheaper rate.

    Answer this one Question:

    Who should get the bulk of minutes on the PF position next year ?
    Davis or Amir.
    Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 01:50 PM.

  13. #53
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    Default This is how it is...

    If you look back to when the Raptors had success in the Carter era the Raptors had a prototypical tough center in Antonio Davis. they had a tough as nails multipurpose PF in Oak. Then they had two high energy, tough, blue collar forwards in JYD and Keon Clark. None of those guys were superb scorers but they were efficient. The scoring work load came more from the wing and perimeter.

    If you look at the Bulls this year they have a similar look, except their ball dominate guard is at the one instead of the two. Go look at the Celtics, same story. If you look to the west, while TD is still a big part of the offense, they too share this concept of the big men being tough and holding down the defensive paint first and foremost with lots of fire power out on the wing and perimeter. Looks at the Lakers and again to see a similar model. The top teams are tough in side with enough talent to keep defenses honest when they're guarding the "skilled positions" out on the wing and perimeter.

    Whether or not Amir and Ed ever start together, if the Raptors want to do anything they're going to need at least two guys like Ed and Amir. If they never start together they're still going to have to replace Bargnani in that starting five at some point with someone who fits the winning model.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Listen Pal, no ones deny that he has made improvement so do not try to put word in my mouth. Improvement does mean anything when you were really bad before or it took you 5 years in the league to make them !!

    If I am fouling at rate of 6 foul in 10 minutes in 4 years in the league and come back next year and reduce that to 6 foul in 15 minutes, Is this a cause for celebration ?

    Amir is glorified garbage man who is putting up big numbers because he plays in a shitty team. Now, there is young stud with name of Davis with ton more upside than Amir and another garbage man who can do his work at much cheaper rate.
    Amir is one of the better garbage men in the league, and it would be hard pressed to replace his production and upside. I still see no problem with keeping Davis and Amir, especially since Amir's trade value probably isn't close to what it should be. Trading Bargnani is the best way to fill in the other holes.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Not sure why a team so devoid of talent would trade away one of its better players. Now, if Davis shows up next year with a consistent mid-range jumper, a go-to low post move, and shows he can defend and rebound consistently for 75 games, then we can talk about moving Amir in 2012. Even if that happens, you need at least 4 quality big men if you want to compete with the top teams. Right now, you could argue that the Raps really only have Amir and a stretch 4 in Bargs. Davis still has a lot of work to do.

    The cost issue is a bit of a red herring. There are worse contracts on this team (Calderon, Barbosa) and you have a number of players coming off the books. You'll also be adding another significant piece on the rookie pay scale and likely a second significant rookie in 2012 (this team is going to be awful again next year). I don't see $ as a big issue 2 or 3 years from now when this team might actually be competitive.

  16. #56
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Listen Pal, no ones deny that he has made improvement so do not try to put word in my mouth.
    I said: Amir has improved in free-throw shooting, and fouling, and his offense from mid-range and the post.
    You said: I don't agree with what you said.
    I said: But that's just the facts: here, look at his stats.
    You said: No one denies he's gotten better.

    Okay. Anyway, so we agree that Amir has improved a bunch, right?
    Improvement does mean anything when you were really bad before or it took you 5 years in the league to make them !!
    Amir was 17 when he was drafted. Ed was 21 and Demar was 20. This is only the second year Amir has played a significant amount of minutes. In a lot of ways, he's like a sophomore player, or a third year player at most. Once he has gotten playing time, he has started to improve a lot. That is an encouraging sign, no? And what makes you say he was really bad before? He's always had good stats in a lot of important categories (offensive rebounds, shooting percentage, blocks, etc.)

    If I am fouling at rate of 6 foul in 10 minutes in 4 years in the league and come back next year and reduce that to 6 foul in 15 minutes, Is this a cause for celebration ?
    No, no reason to celebrate improving to 6 fouls in 15 minutes.

    Except, of course, I already said what his foul rates were, and they are more than twice as good as what you said. This year, it takes Amir 41 minutes to get 6 fouls, on average. Last year it took him 34. Not only that, but his fouling rate has actually improved over the season, so he's fouling less than 5.3 fouls per 36 minutes now. That is perfectly reasonable -- which is why Amir has been able to play 30+ minutes regularly.

    So, once again, you don't appear to know what you're talking about. I mean, if you have to massively exaggerate to make your point, maybe your point isn't worth making. Because it's wrong.
    Amir is glorified garbage man who is putting up big numbers because he plays in a shitty team. Now, there is young stud with name of Davis with ton more upside than Amir and another garbage man who can do his work at much cheaper rate.
    A much cheaper rate? Not really. The only reason Ed is cheaper than Amir is because he's still on his rookie contract. Once the contract ends, (which will happen when Amir is still making 7 million a year), I would be very, very, very surprised if we can sign Ed for 7 million or less. If he's as good as you think, 10 million is probably the min.

    Now, it's great that Ed is so cheap for the time being, but the thing is, Amir is cheap too. Really, really cheap for what he does. If we got rid of him, we'd have to replace him with someone else, who would likely either be more expensive or worse.

    You also are completely wrong that Amir is putting up big numbers because he is on a shitty team. Being on a shitty team does not help you get rebounds and blocks, and it does not help you shoot a high percentage, or play good defence. It actually makes all of those things harder. But those are the things Amir is good at, so if anything, he would probably do those better if he was on a better team.

    What being on a shitty team DOES help a player do is put up lots of points, because you can take shots since no good player is using them. But that's not what Amir is doing, mostly. He is not taking a lot of shots. Barbosa and Bargnani and Weems and DeRozan are the guys taking shots that they wouldn't be able to on a better team. So it doesn't actually seem true that being on a shitty team is helping his numbers much.
    Answer this one Question:

    Who should get the bulk of minutes on the PF position next year ?
    Davis or Amir.
    I don't know: it depends how much Davis improves. If Ed is still usually a liability on the floor overall, Amir should get more minutes. I think both should get plenty of run, in either case. A 3 man big rotation is good.

    Don't get me wrong: trade Amir if the right deal comes along. But his contract is a good fit for the team, there are way less suitable contracts that are a higher priority to get rid of, and I expect Amir to be a Raptor for a long time unless we see a blockbuster deal come down the pipe.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Trade Amir because he is cheap and still has room to grow. I prefer to see Bargs go and his 10 Mil and trade him while his value is as high as it is going to get. Outside of his scoring, his numbers are already in decline. Will the Raps wait until his scoring dips too?
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Trade Amir because he is cheap and still has room to grow. I prefer to see Bargs go and his 10 Mil and trade him while his value is as high as it is going to get. Outside of his scoring, his numbers are already in decline. Will the Raps wait until his scoring dips too?
    His #s have gone up since he got healthy (exclusing 1-13 because he was sick). He's shooting ~50%

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    His #s have gone up since he got healthy (exclusing 1-13 because he was sick). He's shooting ~50%
    irrelevant !!!

    This was posted by Jeff_Hosteler in the other thread :

    Every team needs a guy like Evans. What's great about Reggie is not only is he the glue, but he's such a goddamned beast on the boards. I've said it many times before, but the redundancy on the roster has to be sorted out. Given a possible PF rotation of:

    Amir/ED
    Amir/Evans
    ED/Evans

    I'd take ED/Evans. I don't see anything stopping Davis from becoming better than Amir. Or at the very minimum as good as. There is no need for the two together going forward, not when the Raps need upgrades at nearly every position. Amir should have good market value. Given his production this year his contract is highly reasonable, which should only help under whatever new CBA gets hammered out.

    JJ and Kleiza can both play the 4 as well, so depth at the 4, even without Amir, is still solid. You can't replace what Evans brings - his boards, or his attitude. It's what the Raps need, and it's why I want Evans

  20. #60
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    This thread is ridiculous. Trading Kleiza would not only be incredibly difficult, with his injury, but incredibly stupid, since you'd be selling at as low as possible.

    As for Amir, he's the only current Raptor that would be a sure-fire rotation player on a contender because he's the only player on the Raptors who consistently does the little things and dirty work that help the team, while not being a liability while on the floor. The notion that he's overpaid is preposterous, whether he's starting or not. EVen on a good team he'd play 20-25 mpg because he's simply a good player who is highly efficient on the offensive end, defends and rebounds as well as hustles. He's never going to be a star, but he's the type of player you want on your team.

    And to say that playing Bargnani and Davis together balances the offense and defense is laughable. That's like saying a great looking girl with an awful personality and a ugly looking girl with a great personality balance each other out. They don't. They just make an odd pair of girls that no one wants to be with.
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