His ball handling is not that great. He has very limited post moves. His shooting range is limited. I can go on and on but I think everyone agrees here that although Amir has made some improvement on his offensive games, he is still very limited on the end of the game as a solid starter in NBA.
There are a lot of bigs with handling probs, he has a good jumphook and can dunk and his midrange is very consistent. Not to mention he has the 3rd highest fg% in the league. I highly doubt people on here think Amir is limited offensively.
Do I need to mention more names of the PFs which have a better offensive games than Amir ??
Do you see the difference between this group and what Amir can do on the offensive end ?
Now, Answer this question:
Who do you think has more upside, Davis or Amir ?
why did BC sign Kleiza? Injury woes aside, was he in any scenario the right fit for the team? It boggled my mind when he signed him, and it continues to boggle my mind now.
Good luck getting rid of his contract.
As for Amir - depends how highly he is valued by other teams, and what they would be willing to give up. Amir is a quality back up on an elite team. As the starting PF of the Raps, arguably he is not as valuable as other pieces for this rebuilding team might be - a high pick or a combination of young players...I say keep him, unless something too good to pass up comes along.
Instant gratification is the name of the game which is why so few teams ever do a proper rebuild and see it through. The teams that do follow the plan usually, in my opinion, have a GM coming in new when the club is already at rock bottom.
true enough, I get a little frustrated when reading such sad comments by some of the posters because its obvious they just dont get "it".They think real life is like NBA 2K11 or something and when they go on these pesimistic rants and others follow its just sad to see so many people agree on the same rubbish when its based on an opinion of a topic they are clearly not educated on.
For example, this year, his free throw percentage is .796. Last year it was .638. This year he is fouling 5.2 times per 36 minutes. Last year he was fouling 6.3 times. These are facts. Look them up if you don't believe me -- try basketball-reference.com. Disagreeing with facts is a bad idea. It suggests you don't know what you are talking about.
As for who I think will be a better player in 2 years, I suspect it will be Davis -- although not by much. And I would not be surprised at all if it is still Amir. But so what? We can afford both and play both.
Wrong, we can afford all three. They are extremely affordable. Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. For the next three years (where we have ALL of them under guaranteed contracts), the MOST we pay them combined is $20,653,860 dollars. That is a bargain for completely filling your front court rotation.problem is that we can not afford all 3 of them if we want to get a great SF that can slash to the basket and make some noise. This team needs a STAR Player , a First Option to shoot it to the next level.
Amir, AB and Davis are not that guy and Amir is now replaceable by Davis at a cheaper price.
Now, it would be great to get a star SF. But it is not easy to sign those guys. The contracts we need to move are not the 3 forwards: Barbosa, Kleiza and Calderon are all worse fits with where the team is going than Amir. And we might not have to even get rid of any of them, because we will be 10 million-ish under the cap (if it is similar to before), not to mention 20 million under the luxury tax, which is enough to allow a solid starter at the three spot.
Last edited by malefax; Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 12:03 AM. Reason: politeness
If I am fouling at rate of 6 foul in 10 minutes in 4 years in the league and come back next year and reduce that to 6 foul in 15 minutes, Is this a cause for celebration ?
Amir is glorified garbage man who is putting up big numbers because he plays in a shitty team. Now, there is young stud with name of Davis with ton more upside than Amir and another garbage man who can do his work at much cheaper rate.
Answer this one Question:
Who should get the bulk of minutes on the PF position next year ?
Davis or Amir.
Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 12:50 PM.
If you look back to when the Raptors had success in the Carter era the Raptors had a prototypical tough center in Antonio Davis. they had a tough as nails multipurpose PF in Oak. Then they had two high energy, tough, blue collar forwards in JYD and Keon Clark. None of those guys were superb scorers but they were efficient. The scoring work load came more from the wing and perimeter.
If you look at the Bulls this year they have a similar look, except their ball dominate guard is at the one instead of the two. Go look at the Celtics, same story. If you look to the west, while TD is still a big part of the offense, they too share this concept of the big men being tough and holding down the defensive paint first and foremost with lots of fire power out on the wing and perimeter. Looks at the Lakers and again to see a similar model. The top teams are tough in side with enough talent to keep defenses honest when they're guarding the "skilled positions" out on the wing and perimeter.
Whether or not Amir and Ed ever start together, if the Raptors want to do anything they're going to need at least two guys like Ed and Amir. If they never start together they're still going to have to replace Bargnani in that starting five at some point with someone who fits the winning model.
PG - Penny Hardaway(6'7", 197lbs), 1995-96, Orlando Magic: 21.7 PPG, 4.3 REB, 7.1 AST, 2.0 STL, 24.6 PER
SG - Kobe Bryant(6'6", 200lbs), 2005-06, L.A. Lakers: 35.4 PPG, 5.3 REB, 4.5 AST, 1.8 STL, 28.0 PER
SF - Elgin Baylor(6'5", 225lbs), 1961-62, L.A. Lakers: 38.3 PPG, 18.6 REB, 4.6 AST, 26.5 PER
PF - Patrick Ewing(7'0", 240lbs). 1989-90, N.Y. Knicks: 28.6 PPG, 10.9 REB, 4.6 BLK, 25.8 PER
C - Dikembe Mutombo(7'2", 245lbs), 1999-00, Atlanta Hawks: 11.5 PPG, 14.1 REB, 3.3 BLK, 19.4 PER
6 - Shawn Marion(6'7", 220lbs), 2005-06, Phoenix Suns: 21.7 PPG, 11.8 REB, 2.0 STL, 1.8 BLK, 23.6 PER
7 - Alex English(6'7", 190lbs), 1982-83, Denver Nuggets: 28.4 PPG, 7.3 REB, 4.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.5 BLK, 24.1 PER
Not sure why a team so devoid of talent would trade away one of its better players. Now, if Davis shows up next year with a consistent mid-range jumper, a go-to low post move, and shows he can defend and rebound consistently for 75 games, then we can talk about moving Amir in 2012. Even if that happens, you need at least 4 quality big men if you want to compete with the top teams. Right now, you could argue that the Raps really only have Amir and a stretch 4 in Bargs. Davis still has a lot of work to do.
The cost issue is a bit of a red herring. There are worse contracts on this team (Calderon, Barbosa) and you have a number of players coming off the books. You'll also be adding another significant piece on the rookie pay scale and likely a second significant rookie in 2012 (this team is going to be awful again next year). I don't see $ as a big issue 2 or 3 years from now when this team might actually be competitive.
You said: I don't agree with what you said.
I said: But that's just the facts: here, look at his stats.
You said: No one denies he's gotten better.
Okay. Anyway, so we agree that Amir has improved a bunch, right?
Amir was 17 when he was drafted. Ed was 21 and Demar was 20. This is only the second year Amir has played a significant amount of minutes. In a lot of ways, he's like a sophomore player, or a third year player at most. Once he has gotten playing time, he has started to improve a lot. That is an encouraging sign, no? And what makes you say he was really bad before? He's always had good stats in a lot of important categories (offensive rebounds, shooting percentage, blocks, etc.)Improvement does mean anything when you were really bad before or it took you 5 years in the league to make them !!
No, no reason to celebrate improving to 6 fouls in 15 minutes.If I am fouling at rate of 6 foul in 10 minutes in 4 years in the league and come back next year and reduce that to 6 foul in 15 minutes, Is this a cause for celebration ?
Except, of course, I already said what his foul rates were, and they are more than twice as good as what you said. This year, it takes Amir 41 minutes to get 6 fouls, on average. Last year it took him 34. Not only that, but his fouling rate has actually improved over the season, so he's fouling less than 5.3 fouls per 36 minutes now. That is perfectly reasonable -- which is why Amir has been able to play 30+ minutes regularly.
So, once again, you don't appear to know what you're talking about. I mean, if you have to massively exaggerate to make your point, maybe your point isn't worth making. Because it's wrong.
A much cheaper rate? Not really. The only reason Ed is cheaper than Amir is because he's still on his rookie contract. Once the contract ends, (which will happen when Amir is still making 7 million a year), I would be very, very, very surprised if we can sign Ed for 7 million or less. If he's as good as you think, 10 million is probably the min.Amir is glorified garbage man who is putting up big numbers because he plays in a shitty team. Now, there is young stud with name of Davis with ton more upside than Amir and another garbage man who can do his work at much cheaper rate.
Now, it's great that Ed is so cheap for the time being, but the thing is, Amir is cheap too. Really, really cheap for what he does. If we got rid of him, we'd have to replace him with someone else, who would likely either be more expensive or worse.
You also are completely wrong that Amir is putting up big numbers because he is on a shitty team. Being on a shitty team does not help you get rebounds and blocks, and it does not help you shoot a high percentage, or play good defence. It actually makes all of those things harder. But those are the things Amir is good at, so if anything, he would probably do those better if he was on a better team.
What being on a shitty team DOES help a player do is put up lots of points, because you can take shots since no good player is using them. But that's not what Amir is doing, mostly. He is not taking a lot of shots. Barbosa and Bargnani and Weems and DeRozan are the guys taking shots that they wouldn't be able to on a better team. So it doesn't actually seem true that being on a shitty team is helping his numbers much.
I don't know: it depends how much Davis improves. If Ed is still usually a liability on the floor overall, Amir should get more minutes. I think both should get plenty of run, in either case. A 3 man big rotation is good.Answer this one Question:
Who should get the bulk of minutes on the PF position next year ?
Davis or Amir.
Don't get me wrong: trade Amir if the right deal comes along. But his contract is a good fit for the team, there are way less suitable contracts that are a higher priority to get rid of, and I expect Amir to be a Raptor for a long time unless we see a blockbuster deal come down the pipe.
Trade Amir because he is cheap and still has room to grow. I prefer to see Bargs go and his 10 Mil and trade him while his value is as high as it is going to get. Outside of his scoring, his numbers are already in decline. Will the Raps wait until his scoring dips too?
“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King
This was posted by Jeff_Hosteler in the other thread :
Every team needs a guy like Evans. What's great about Reggie is not only is he the glue, but he's such a goddamned beast on the boards. I've said it many times before, but the redundancy on the roster has to be sorted out. Given a possible PF rotation of:
I'd take ED/Evans. I don't see anything stopping Davis from becoming better than Amir. Or at the very minimum as good as. There is no need for the two together going forward, not when the Raps need upgrades at nearly every position. Amir should have good market value. Given his production this year his contract is highly reasonable, which should only help under whatever new CBA gets hammered out.
JJ and Kleiza can both play the 4 as well, so depth at the 4, even without Amir, is still solid. You can't replace what Evans brings - his boards, or his attitude. It's what the Raps need, and it's why I want Evans
This thread is ridiculous. Trading Kleiza would not only be incredibly difficult, with his injury, but incredibly stupid, since you'd be selling at as low as possible.
As for Amir, he's the only current Raptor that would be a sure-fire rotation player on a contender because he's the only player on the Raptors who consistently does the little things and dirty work that help the team, while not being a liability while on the floor. The notion that he's overpaid is preposterous, whether he's starting or not. EVen on a good team he'd play 20-25 mpg because he's simply a good player who is highly efficient on the offensive end, defends and rebounds as well as hustles. He's never going to be a star, but he's the type of player you want on your team.
And to say that playing Bargnani and Davis together balances the offense and defense is laughable. That's like saying a great looking girl with an awful personality and a ugly looking girl with a great personality balance each other out. They don't. They just make an odd pair of girls that no one wants to be with.
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