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Thread: Colangelo's extension being blocked, referred to as a "product of nepotism"

  1. #61
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Joey, I understand you're point but that's exactly the poison the BC is feeding the board of directors let alone the fans of this team. Never assume that the replacement is ill prepared. It is pretty clear that both Peddie and Tanenbaum went for a "brand" in Colangelo. My point is, he has cleared cap space and got us potentially a top 3-5 pick. It's time for him to move aside and let the new GM re-start from scratch. Do you really think that this "brand" will settle for less than what he's getting now? Five mil per year for another five years will be HIS BASE COMPENSATION (that's how he's going to sell it). Oh, and guess what, with Donnie Walsh departing New York, guess what franchise he's going to use as leverage - you got it, the New York Knicks.

    I don't buy the lack of knowledgeable executives around this league. There's plenty of them. Ownership just needs to take the blinders off, that's all.
    Well I said ill-prepared or inexperienced. I'm sure there are some ex-GMs sitting at home doing homework, scouting the draft, etc. But I'm not sure I'd more comfortable with Kevin Pritchard, or any other fired GM on the market, making the draft pick over BC. So that leaves Assistant GMs ... and that makes them inexperienced.

    BC has experience judging and selecting talent, as well as well as experience in rebuilding a roster into a successful Playoff team.

    I don't think Bryan is out to shill MLSE out of their money. And frankly so long as Executives Salaries don't count against the Cap, then what do we care? Nor is he out to screw the organization.

    He's got a reputation that he needs to fix and maintain. That's all an Executive is hired on, is reputation. There's no way he could go out and get the kind of hype and backing now, that he could 5 years ago. So I'm not sure this 'leverage' is real. If he's looking to move on, or use NY as a bargaining chip, I'm sure MLSE isn't going to beg him to stay either.

    I never said there was a lack of knowledgable Executives. There are absolutely TONS.
    I said that compared to BC, anyone that comes in would likely be less experienced, and less-prepared to draft for the Raptors.
    No one knows the team, or its needs, better than BC right now.

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Matt, I don't mind suffering for as long as the man at the helm has long-term vision. BC tends to really gamble and mostly on the short term (knee-jerk reactions). I don't buy the "we are now building without Bosh business". He's now building around Bargnani with the types of players that he's bringing in / drafting, etc.
    Don't agree with you at all. How do you figure he is building around Bargs, he drafted a damn PF/C last draft, and signed Amir, and has Reggie and Dorsey, he also tried to sign Chandler. Looks to me that he is overloading with bigs in case he can make a deal to send Bargs packing.

    I think you do mind suffering. BC does have a long term vision, we are in the suffering phase right now. You just don't like BC because he drafted Bargs, whom you clearly dislike. I'm sure if BC traded Bargs today, you would be on his bandwagon supporting his plans.

  3. #63
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Matt, I don't mind suffering for as long as the man at the helm has long-term vision. BC tends to really gamble and mostly on the short term (knee-jerk reactions). I don't buy the "we are now building without Bosh business". He's now building around Bargnani with the types of players that he's bringing in / drafting, etc.
    How do you think he found gems like Boris Diaw and Joe Johnson? GAMBLE.
    How do you think LA landed Kobe? Trading your Starting Center for an 18 year old kid? Thats a GAMBLE to me.
    How did Boston land their Big 3? Trading their ENTIRE team for two guys many said were past their prime. GAMBLE.
    ITS ALL A GAMBLE! Nothing in Sports is a sure thing. But BC has shown that more often than not, when he gambles, he wins. In my opinion.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    And we are happy with where Peddie and Tanenbaum's experience has brought us? The most experienced business owner in the NBA is Donald Sterling (Clippers). The NBA owner with the most basketball experience is Michael Jordan (Bobcats). There's no correlation to success with either of those attributes.
    I get what you're saying but honestly, I'd rather have MJ and Sterling making executive decisions over a guy with zero experience or connections. Those are extremes you picked right there. I can flip that and give you examples like Jerry Buss and Danny Ainge. Anyway, for all the mistakes Peddie has made in the past he's learned from them. He had far too much control during the Carter/Grunwald years and then that grew out of control in the Babcock years. Since then the board has stepped back and let the GM (Bryan Colangelo) do his job. Now that no doubt has not worked out well to date but that does not necessarily make it the wrong choice. We're not privy to information such as if Toronto is a desired destination for managers. I've said this in many other threads, Colangelo wants to be here and it's quiet possible that he's the best GM available right now even if that's not the perfect answer. Peddie and Tanenbaum should have a much better handle on these factors because they have been in the league executive community for such a long time. And how Colangelo got to where he is is irrelevant if he's the best man they can find for the job and is willing to take the job right now. That part seems to reek of personal resentment/jealousy... If the info in the article is true.


    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Personally, I do not like the way BC builds teams. Maybe he's learned from his mistakes, but I just don't like his philosophies. His teams play soft, with no accountability on defense (led by face-of-the-franchise, Andrea).
    I would agree with you but in the past couple years he's shifted away from the run and gun style. The drafting of DeMar DeRozan, Ed Davis and Solomon Alabi is proof of this. Them trading for Reggie Evans, Amir and James Johnson is proof of this. The deal MJ screwed the Raptors over on, which involved Tyson Chandler coming this way is even further proof of this. A lot of Colangelo's moves have failed no doubt but all indications point to him seeing the error in his ways and he's moved on in a different direction which seems promising. Whether he's the guy or not moving forward he's placed the team in a place now where they again have a promising future and with some solid moves are made over the next few season they could be one of the hottest young teams in the league once again.

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    I have no idea how much Glen Silvestri knows about basketball. He might even be a poster on RR, for all we know (lol). But he has every right questioning whether BC is the right guy to move the franchise forward.
    The problem here is that what if the rest of the board knows they can't find a better GM willing to take on the role? If that's the case, and it's a logical assumption, then this is a big waste of time. The point here should not be to "punish" Colangelo for past mistakes. The point should be to fill the position with the best person available who is likely to take the job.

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    The question of who is putting this information out there? My guess is that it's Feschuk himself. He doesn't like Colangelo and has been taking shots at BC as far back as summer of 2008. He was the first reporter to do it, and if you read his old articles, he actually made some good points about the problems with BC's management style early on.
    I don't buy it. The article makes the board member look like the lamebrain, not Colangelo. The article makes MLSE look like they're disorganized, not Colangelo. Everyone is well aware of Colangelo's missteps. Like Feschuk or not, he's not known for making stuff up. He's known for being negative about the facts. I trust the info.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    How do you think he found gems like Boris Diaw and Joe Johnson? GAMBLE.
    How do you think LA landed Kobe? Trading your Starting Center for an 18 year old kid? Thats a GAMBLE to me.
    How did Boston land their Big 3? Trading their ENTIRE team for two guys many said were past their prime. GAMBLE.
    ITS ALL A GAMBLE! Nothing in Sports is a sure thing. But BC has shown that more often than not, when he gambles, he wins. In my opinion.
    +1, playing it "Safe" in pro sports gets you nowhere, stuck in the mire of mediocrity, 1st round playoff eliminations each year. BC has a plan, hopefully this poindexter teacher bean counter doesn't get in the way. Mannn I hate f'ing MLSE.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Matt, I don't mind suffering for as long as the man at the helm has long-term vision. BC tends to really gamble and mostly on the short term (knee-jerk reactions). I don't buy the "we are now building without Bosh business". He's now building around Bargnani with the types of players that he's bringing in / drafting, etc.
    I'd have to disagree. Since Bosh left there is a noticeable change in the types of players being brought in. Despite the record, I find most games more enjoyable than any other time in the last few seasons. The future is bright and given BC's prior success and current state of the roster, there is no one I would rather at the helm. Just my opinion.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Don't agree with you at all. How do you figure he is building around Bargs, he drafted a damn PF/C last draft, and signed Amir, and has Reggie and Dorsey, he also tried to sign Chandler. Looks to me that he is overloading with bigs in case he can make a deal to send Bargs packing.

    I think you do mind suffering. BC does have a long term vision, we are in the suffering phase right now. You just don't like BC because he drafted Bargs, whom you clearly dislike. I'm sure if BC traded Bargs today, you would be on his bandwagon supporting his plans.
    It is no secret that I'm not a fan of Bargs and what he brings to the table. However, my displeasure towards BC boils down to his accomplishment as a GM of the RAPS this past 5 years. There's really little to argue when it comes to what he has managed to assemble versus the amount of money that was thrown his way (with his salary and ultimate control as president of the Raps as well). If he traded Bargs for a bag of balls, I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon all of a sudden because my least favourite player is out of town. If he traded Bargs for pieces that help the franchise moving forward, I will applaud him on the move, but will continue to be critical of his moves because he's one of the most highly paid executives in the NBA.

    Building around Bargs is not a hard concept to argue (and it is hardly mine either). Many fans on this forum (click here) have suggested that Andrea is being surrounded by "blue collar" type physical players that rebounds and defends hard while at the same time will not command or take away shots from him on offense.

    I don't mind the suffering, especially when Seattle / OKC, Portland, and Atlanta stunk it up year after year. Five years is substantial to put something in place. I'm not sure if BC's moves is something I agree at the moment. He cleared salaries and drafted the players HE SHOULD DRAFT (in DeRozan and Davis), but at another $25-30 Mil and another 5 years, I'd prefer to see that money on a new President AND a new GM.

    I apologize for the segway Paul but I heard a recent interview by Alex Anthopoulos on John Farrell (the new Jay's Coach). In it, AA referred to his new coach as someone who is secure of himself and was not interested in blowing the coaching staff and hiring his friends. He didn't care. BC on the other hand, demanded the he be given full control of everything and very little opposition is made by his moves. Gherardini is his puppet and he basically just brought the people he's comfortable with him to run the Raps. To me, this is dangerous as organizations always need a second or third opinions on how to run the franchise. Let's face it. If his vision is paramount, he should've been signed by now.
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Tue Mar 15th, 2011 at 03:08 PM.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    How do you think he found gems like Boris Diaw and Joe Johnson? GAMBLE.
    How do you think LA landed Kobe? Trading your Starting Center for an 18 year old kid? Thats a GAMBLE to me.
    How did Boston land their Big 3? Trading their ENTIRE team for two guys many said were past their prime. GAMBLE.
    ITS ALL A GAMBLE! Nothing in Sports is a sure thing. But BC has shown that more often than not, when he gambles, he wins. In my opinion.
    I agree, nothing in sports is a sure thing but sports and in particular winning franchises also DEMANDS results. How much gamble did the San Antonio Spurs, Utah Jazz, Celtics, and the Lakers have over the years? How come their gambles work for them and none for the Raps in fifteen years? Heck, since you put gambling as the crux of your argument, how come in Poker, you almost see the same faces at the final table? When BC gambles he wins? I'm not using this season as a reference but if he gets re-signed for another five years, let's revisit this conversation. There are good gamblers and bad gamblers. BC is the latter rather than the former. His numbers speaks for itself.

    PS> Executives are not paid to just gamble. Their salary reflects critical decision making processes that can make or break any business or not-for-profit organizations. We have seen his body of work over the past 5 years. Is it foolish to ignore that?
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Tue Mar 15th, 2011 at 03:22 PM.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  9. #69
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    but at another $25-30 Mil and another 5 years, I'd prefer to see that money on a new President AND a new GM.
    Has MLSE come out and said that they are only willing to spend $XX on Management this off-season?
    Is there a limit to what they can spend on a GM and President?
    This has nothing to do with anything. What they pay the guy has ZERO bearing on what the team is able to do financially going forward. Why is THIS your concern?

    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    BC on the other hand, demanded the he be given full control of everything and very little opposition is made by his moves. Gherardini is his puppet and he basically just brought the people he's comfortable with him to run the Raps.
    And how is BC hiring an Assistant from LONG BEFORE he was even GM, how is that bringing in your friends? Mauritzio is a very smart man, and if BC didn't hire him then I can promise you that someone would have.
    Bryan has not come into the Organization and insisted on clearing the decks. He had a "potential" Super Star in Chris Bosh and did what was asked of him when he was hired: Make us competitive. a 47-win season after a 27-win season, shows he is capable of doing just that.

  10. #70
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I agree, nothing in sports is a sure thing but sports and in particular winning franchises also DEMANDS results. How much gamble did the San Antonio Spurs, Utah Jazz, Celtics, and the Lakers have over the years? How come their gambles work for them and none for the Raps in fifteen years? Heck, since you put gambling as the crux of your argument, how come in Poker, you almost see the same faces at the final table? When BC gambles he wins? I'm not using this season as a reference but if he gets re-signed for another five years, let's revisit this conversation. There are good gamblers and bad gamblers. BC is the latter rather than the former. His numbers speaks for itself.

    PS> Executives are not paid to just gamble. Their salary reflects critical decision making processes that can make or break any business or not-for-profit organizations. We have seen his body of work over the past 5 years. Is it foolish to ignore that?
    I already gave you examples of the Lakers and Celtics "gambling" to improve their team.
    And I already gave examples of how BC has shown to be successful with his tactics, so again, you're just ignoring my points.

    There are teams that, in their entire history, have experienced far less success than the Raptors have in our very short life.

    Raptors fans need to stop with this 'woe is me' attitude. In my opinion, anyway.

    If you don't want BC back, thats one thing. But at least have a suggestion ready, with facts, numbers, etc. of someone who has historically proven to be a better GM, and who can come in and turn this team around as quickly as you desire.
    And if you say Kevin Pritchard, I'm leaving. hahah

    PS. I didn't say GMs are paid to Gamble. I said they are paid based on Reputation. BC has one of the best.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Mar 15th, 2011 at 03:31 PM.

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    Default Let's agree to disagree

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I already gave you examples of the Lakers and Celtics "gambling" to improve their team.
    And I already gave examples of how BC has shown to be successful with his tactics, so again, you're just ignoring my points.

    There are teams that, in their entire history, have experienced far less success than the Raptors have in our very short life.

    Raptors fans need to stop with this 'woe is me' attitude. In my opinion, anyway.

    If you don't want BC back, thats one thing. But at least have a suggestion ready, with facts, numbers, etc. of someone who has historically proven to be a better GM, and who can come in and turn this team around as quickly as you desire.
    And if you say Kevin Pritchard, I'm leaving. hahah

    PS. I didn't say GMs are paid to Gamble. I said they are paid based on Reputation. BC has one of the best.
    I'm not suggesting Pritchard. Also, to say that BC's "brand" is established and should be the only thing to consider is foolish. There are other upcoming executive out there as well that deserves a crack at anything. In life, we all start somewhere, even in a multi-million dollar franchise such as the Raps. We've seen drastic changes made to the Jays to date with Alex Anthopolous at the helm. He's young (34 years old), and is running a team whose league doesn't have a hard cap, and his team belongs in perhaps the toughest division in all of professional sports. Yes, he has yet to win or prove anything but his frugal moves are sound. I have faith in young guys so I'll leave it at that.

    PS> I apologize if I sounded "woe is me". My response regarding this issue has nothing to do with me. I'm more interested as a fan on how this organization manages to put a competitive product, year after year. Woe is me? Hardly. It's been five years since he took over. Five years.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    [QUOTE=Balls of Steel;71179] BC on the other hand, demanded the he be given full control of everything and very little opposition is made by his moves. Gherardini is his puppet and he basically just brought the people he's comfortable with him to run the Raps. QUOTE]

    I don't know where you get this info from, unless you are secretly part of the MLSE inner circle?

    BC did not come to the Raps in rebuild mode, he was asked to build around CB. He tried desperately, bringing in JO, Turk, not drafting Aldridge because he was a PF like Tranbosh.

    Now, he is asked to start anew. So it seems fair to give him a clean slate and consider this year 1 of his project. Will he trade Bargs? Maybe. But we need to be patient and not call for the mans head.

    One thing you will learn in life is that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. BC is a competent guy, and as a Raps fans since day 1, game 1, I can say I have enjoyed this team alot more then with the previous GMs.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    PS> I apologize if I sounded "woe is me". My response regarding this issue has nothing to do with me. I'm more interested as a fan on how this organization manages to put a competitive product, year after year.
    Valid and I fully agree. So I guess we only really disagree in that I think BC is capable of finishing what he started, and you do not? Yes? Can't imagine anyone of importance is reading this, so perhaps we just agree to disagree.
    You raise some very valid arguments, but I guess it's in how those arguments are interpreted. I don't think BC has been given enough time to 'rebuild'. As Multi is saying, he wasn't in rebuild mode when he got here. And trading Bosh wasn't NEARLY as much of an option as it was for Denver.
    So I think we should see where he is going with the team he has started. He's gotten us younger, cheaper, more flexible, more exciting and more entertaining. Whether he can finish the job and get us to the Finals is yet to be seen, but I think that is at least another 5 years away. So why not let him do his job and see where we are at that point, when we can actually be expected to compete.

    I do enjoy a good debate with you Balls. I will say that.
    Speaking of which ... where did the work day go?! haha

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Valid and I fully agree. So I guess we only really disagree in that I think BC is capable of finishing what he started, and you do not? Yes? Can't imagine anyone of importance is reading this, so perhaps we just agree to disagree.
    You raise some very valid arguments, but I guess it's in how those arguments are interpreted. I don't think BC has been given enough time to 'rebuild'. As Multi is saying, he wasn't in rebuild mode when he got here. And trading Bosh wasn't NEARLY as much of an option as it was for Denver.
    So I think we should see where he is going with the team he has started. He's gotten us younger, cheaper, more flexible, more exciting and more entertaining. Whether he can finish the job and get us to the Finals is yet to be seen, but I think that is at least another 5 years away. So why not let him do his job and see where we are at that point, when we can actually be expected to compete.

    I do enjoy a good debate with you Balls. I will say that.
    Speaking of which ... where did the work day go?! haha
    Likewise as well. Cheers!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Likewise as well. Cheers!
    Three cheers for arguing with balls!

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