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Thread: Which Bigs to keep?

  1. #21
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Anything less than a mid lottery pick or a young rising SF (like a Jeff Green or Paul George) wouldn't be worth trading Amir, considering Amir himself is finally making real improvements and is arguably our best and most well rounded player at the age of 23. His value likely hasn't recovered yet after the ridicule his contract received in the offseason, so we'd be selling low.
    He is good, but well rounded, he is not. Foul prone, inconsistent defense, IQ lapses, no outside game, doesn't take it hard enough to the rim, etc etc etc. These are all things that big ed, in his rookie year, is showing better skill levels at.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Anything less than a mid lottery pick or a young rising SF (like a Jeff Green or Paul George) wouldn't be worth trading Amir, considering Amir himself is finally making real improvements and is arguably our best and most well rounded player at the age of 23. His value likely hasn't recovered yet after the ridicule his contract received in the offseason, so we'd be selling low.
    I agree. I think the Raps put themselves in a really big dilemma when they drafted Ed. I dont think they foresaw how Amir was going to improve, and now theyre stuck with 2 PFs who pretty much is a mirror image of the other. I think they were thinking Amir was going to start and Ed will back him up but Ed just made huge strides with his play and now, IMO, merits a starting PF spot in a team like the Raptors. Id have Ed start and Amir back him up but its just hard to envision Bargs and Davis or Bargs and Amir side by side. But if you trade Bargs, is Ed capable of scoring 20 pts every night? Yikes. My head is about to explode.

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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Davis can play 30+ minutes, Amir can play high 20s, and whoever eventually replaces Bargs at Centre can take the bulk of the difference. Ideally we'd have 4 throw back bigs in the mold of Davis/Amir and get our scoring from the wings.
    I'm with you on this one. My opinion we are set at the 4 with these two guys.

    Keep: ED, Amir, Dorsey, Ajinca. Maybe on Alabi, but if we are taking a contract with the TPE need to send something...
    On the fence: Evans and Bargnani. The former is great but brings us nothing in the total build. He is great as a Rodman type for a team that has a couple of stars, we aren't there yet and won't be in the life remaining in his career. As for the latter, I am back and forth all the damn time. His BYC is up (no way BC would have traded him before anyway because of that), so he now can bring back some value, and he has value. At the end of the day he is probably the only piece that can get us a good 1st round pick and a player...at least that we would trade.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I agree. I think the Raps put themselves in a really big dilemma when they drafted Ed. I dont think they foresaw how Amir was going to improve, and now theyre stuck with 2 PFs who pretty much is a mirror image of the other. I think they were thinking Amir was going to start and Ed will back him up but Ed just made huge strides with his play and now, IMO, merits a starting PF spot in a team like the Raptors. Id have Ed start and Amir back him up but its just hard to envision Bargs and Davis or Bargs and Amir side by side. But if you trade Bargs, is Ed capable of scoring 20 pts every night? Yikes. My head is about to explode.
    There is no real argument here. The Raps are getting big ban for little buck on their rook. Ed is already surpassing Amir, especially since he is smarter on D and doesnt get in foul trouble. His rebounding, shot blocking, etc are excellent and he is young young young.

    Amir has suddenly become a big time trade chip. Too bad he's hurt, he can't be showcased. Based on that I got a hunch he will stick around. Too bad if he supplants Ed, i think big Ed should start. Hell, Demar started since his rookie campaign, and Ed is showing the same flashes of brilliance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    There is no real argument here. The Raps are getting big ban for little buck on their rook. Ed is already surpassing Amir, especially since he is smarter on D and doesnt get in foul trouble. His rebounding, shot blocking, etc are excellent and he is young young young.

    Amir has suddenly become a big time trade chip. Too bad he's hurt, he can't be showcased. Based on that I got a hunch he will stick around. Too bad if he supplants Ed, i think big Ed should start. Hell, Demar started since his rookie campaign, and Ed is showing the same flashes of brilliance.
    Good point. As of now, the minimum Davis can become anyways is an Amir-type player.
    It would be exciting to watch both on the floor, but i dont know how theyll be able to handle Dwight, Duncan, Gasol and Bynum. Yikes.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I agree. I think the Raps put themselves in a really big dilemma when they drafted Ed. I dont think they foresaw how Amir was going to improve, and now theyre stuck with 2 PFs who pretty much is a mirror image of the other. I think they were thinking Amir was going to start and Ed will back him up but Ed just made huge strides with his play and now, IMO, merits a starting PF spot in a team like the Raptors. Id have Ed start and Amir back him up but its just hard to envision Bargs and Davis or Bargs and Amir side by side. But if you trade Bargs, is Ed capable of scoring 20 pts every night? Yikes. My head is about to explode.
    I'm not so sure about that. I see Amir as a bench player. Yes they can both start on this team now but the team is 18-48. I'm sure Oakley would start if he came back. Moving forward, Ed definitely has more upside in my opinion. However, a team is more than just a starting lineup. Amir coming off the bench is going to be great in the future. He is going to get his minutes and he is going to be better than most teams reserve big men. His contract, while questionable at first, has paid off. Look around the league at the salaries of big men. There are quite a few getting around the same or more who produce much less. Outside of bigs on rookie deals, I don't think there are many producing what Amir does. The old saying you can't teach height is alive and well in the NBA and has been for years. Personally, Amir seems like a good person/teammate and if Ed is legitimately better than him in time and the Raptors enjoy success in the standings, I don't see him causing a problem coming off the bench for 25 minutes per game or starting 25 minutes per game - either way he is going to play an important role and be well compensated for it.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    I'm with you on this one. My opinion we are set at the 4 with these two guys.

    Keep: ED, Amir, Dorsey, Ajinca. Maybe on Alabi, but if we are taking a contract with the TPE need to send something...
    On the fence: Evans and Bargnani. The former is great but brings us nothing in the total build. He is great as a Rodman type for a team that has a couple of stars, we aren't there yet and won't be in the life remaining in his career. As for the latter, I am back and forth all the damn time. His BYC is up (no way BC would have traded him before anyway because of that), so he now can bring back some value, and he has value. At the end of the day he is probably the only piece that can get us a good 1st round pick and a player...at least that we would trade.
    The longer i go on this post, the more Evans value decreases.
    I know he's a monster rebounder but he's a one dimensional player. Even if he gets 50 rebs in the game, if he cant do putbacks i think he is still a liability. Id take Amir over him.

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    Ofcourse he's well rounded. He's the best defensive player on the team, rebounds at a good enough clip and does a few things extremely well offensively.

    No doubt Ed will be better, and has allstar potential.

  9. #29
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. I see Amir as a bench player. Yes they can both start on this team now but the team is 18-48. I'm sure Oakley would start if he came back. Moving forward, Ed definitely has more upside in my opinion. However, a team is more than just a starting lineup. Amir coming off the bench is going to be great in the future. He is going to get his minutes and he is going to be better than most teams reserve big men. His contract, while questionable at first, has paid off. Look around the league at the salaries of big men. There are quite a few getting around the same or more who produce much less. Outside of bigs on rookie deals, I don't think there are many producing what Amir does. The old saying you can't teach height is alive and well in the NBA and has been for years. Personally, Amir seems like a good person/teammate and if Ed is legitimately better than him in time and the Raptors enjoy success in the standings, I don't see him causing a problem coming off the bench for 25 minutes per game or starting 25 minutes per game - either way he is going to play an important role and be well compensated for it.
    I'm all for that, if we start Ed and have Amir off the bench. sounds good.

  10. #30
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    The question always is not who but for what. Many of you vastly over rate what teams will give up for a player on the 5th worse team in the league. Secondly, if they ever did get rid of Bargs they better replace him with a combination of points and defense. They might actually get something for him. However the other 4 bigs getting minutes are somewhat offensively challenged. Outside of DD and Ed I would accept offers on any of them. But this team can't be leaving it to JuJu and Dorsey to score points next year.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. I see Amir as a bench player. Yes they can both start on this team now but the team is 18-48. I'm sure Oakley would start if he came back. Moving forward, Ed definitely has more upside in my opinion. However, a team is more than just a starting lineup. Amir coming off the bench is going to be great in the future. He is going to get his minutes and he is going to be better than most teams reserve big men. His contract, while questionable at first, has paid off. Look around the league at the salaries of big men. There are quite a few getting around the same or more who produce much less. Outside of bigs on rookie deals, I don't think there are many producing what Amir does. The old saying you can't teach height is alive and well in the NBA and has been for years. Personally, Amir seems like a good person/teammate and if Ed is legitimately better than him in time and the Raptors enjoy success in the standings, I don't see him causing a problem coming off the bench for 25 minutes per game or starting 25 minutes per game - either way he is going to play an important role and be well compensated for it.
    I Always love the hint of sarcasm, spices up the conversation.

    I think we've already fixed on the mindset that this season is done and we're trying to figure out which bigs to keep next year. I think that was the question at hand.

    IMO, a legit starter should be playing 30-35 mins a game. Heck with the youth legs that Davis, Demar, and Bargs have, they should be playing closer to 40. Lebron, Kobe are 40 min career avg players. If the team decides to play Bargs and Davis at least 35 mins per night, how many minutes will be left for Amir? I would say 13-15 mins. How productive will he be given 15mins? Oh i think he'll be worth the 15mins, but will his salary parallel to that? will he accept only such minutes? Dont get me wrong, id love to have both amir and ed but i think one definitely has to give.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    The longer i go on this post, the more Evans value decreases.
    I know he's a monster rebounder but he's a one dimensional player. Even if he gets 50 rebs in the game, if he cant do putbacks i think he is still a liability. Id take Amir over him.
    Yep yep.

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I'm all for that, if we start Ed and have Amir off the bench. sounds good.
    Absolutely agree.

    Quote meductic wrote: View Post
    The question always is not who but for what. Many of you vastly over rate what teams will give up for a player on the 5th worse team in the league. Secondly, if they ever did get rid of Bargs they better replace him with a combination of points and defense. They might actually get something for him. However the other 4 bigs getting minutes are somewhat offensively challenged. Outside of DD and Ed I would accept offers on any of them. But this team can't be leaving it to JuJu and Dorsey to score points next year.
    I would prefer to have the wings scoring, a mid-scoring floor general at PG, and a clog the paint punch you in the mouth front court that can defend, rebound and do putbacks. Ed and Amir can be this at the 4, and I would prefer a Biedrins or Perkins style at the 5 (not saying we are getting them.) Scoring will come from the pick/trade at the 3 and the PG slot as the rebuild...builds.

  13. #33
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    Ed Davis
    Amir Johnson
    Reggie Evans
    Jared Sullinger (if you don't draft a wing or PG)

    You can't get anything for Johnson and you can get more from Bargnani. Time to build around Davis and Derozan and that pick. No offense to Andrea, but no one is untouchable on an 18-48 team and you need to give up something to get something.

  14. #34
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    START
    C - Bargnani
    PF - Davis

    2ND UNIT
    PF - Johnson

    PROJECT
    C - Alabi

    GONE
    Ajinca - hasn't proven anything and a big defensive/rebound minded C would be more suitable to backup Bargnani
    Evans - will likely sign with a contender; not worth what we'd have to pay him to stay
    Dorsey - assuming he's gone, but for minimum contract could stick around as 3rd PF


    ** IF we can draft Irving, I like the idea of him starting with Bargnani/Davis/DeRozan, with the Calderon/Amir tandem on the 2nd unit! In this scenario, Bayless & the TPE become trade bait to land a solid starting SF and/or legit backup C.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why Bayless? He has a small contract, he's young and talented.
    The team absolutely refuses to give him a chance, and thinks that having him mimic Calderon's game is what makes a good PG. We have nothing to lose but games at this, and Triano's saying that he'll try to give him more minutes no matter how much the combo of White Swan and Calderon cripples the team defensively. It's more me wanting him to succeed. I think the Cavs would be interested in a Bargs + Bayless package for the Clippers' pick. /dreams of coming out with Barnes and Irving in the draft

    Also, down the line, if we're good again, I don't see why Amir can't (very) effectively play both backup forward positions.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I Always love the hint of sarcasm, spices up the conversation.

    I think we've already fixed on the mindset that this season is done and we're trying to figure out which bigs to keep next year. I think that was the question at hand.

    IMO, a legit starter should be playing 30-35 mins a game. Heck with the youth legs that Davis, Demar, and Bargs have, they should be playing closer to 40. Lebron, Kobe are 40 min career avg players. If the team decides to play Bargs and Davis at least 35 mins per night, how many minutes will be left for Amir? I would say 13-15 mins. How productive will he be given 15mins? Oh i think he'll be worth the 15mins, but will his salary parallel to that? will he accept only such minutes? Dont get me wrong, id love to have both amir and ed but i think one definitely has to give.
    I meant no sarcasm, so hopefully no offense taken as none meant.

    If Bargnani and ED play 35 mins each, that still leaves 26 mins per game. Then consider foul trouble and injury that are bound to happen. Amir, IMO, is a valued and needed piece moving forward.

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    Keep (in order): Ed, Amir, Reggie (in the , Ajinca, Dorsey and Alabi

    If we end up drafting Sullinger then Ajinca goes. Alabi is a long-shot right now but at his price he is worth having around just to see if he gets it - also nice for salary matching. Ajinca is more expensive than Alabi but the trade throw-in approach holds true and with Bargs gone it may be best to give Ajinca some real run ans see what is there.

    Reggie gets as much as $3-4 million. The reasoning is simple - his grit, try and spirit is an example the team needs to see AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. As well, in practice he is probably a total load to play against and Ed/Amir et al NEED to face that kind of determination if they are goingh to get better.

    Bargs needs to go. I would even take an expiring and a draft pick at this point. Another year in the low lotto won't hurt and, with any luck, the pick will fill a hole. This year the pick can't help but fill a hole as C, SF and PG are all lacking.

  18. #38
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    Default Bargs not leaving town unless BC is.

    Bargs needs to go. I would even take an expiring and a draft pick at this point. Another year in the low lotto won't hurt and, with any luck, the pick will fill a hole. This year the pick can't help but fill a hole as C, SF and PG are all lacking.[/QUOTE]


    Face it kids, Bargnani's clueless defence is here to stay as long as Mario and BC are around. I do not mind so much. When he is hitting his shot, he is pretty hard to stop. Bargs needs to be a better shooter. He is never going to be a rounded center, but he needs to be better at what he is supposed to be good at. Get him a shooting coach and get him to practice more shooting.

    We need a good big big to round out our frontcourt. No offence to Reggie, but he is no 7 footer who can intimidate on the shots or get other bigs to miss. I love watching him on the boards - he is great at anticipating where the rebound is going. That said, Sullinger looks solid, but he is a PF and would open Johnson or Davis for a trade. A serious center would give the rotation some great flexibility with Bargs being able to play PF some, and AJ being able to be matched up better. Right now, he is getting pounded by some big people. Dude deserved a little break.

    I think we will see a wing player come in the draft. I would not be surprised to see BC trade down and go for Kwahni Leonard, though I think he will look more at a Harrison Barnes.

  19. #39
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    Bargnani, Davis and Amir are our best big men. And all three are very valuable, and I wouldn't trade any of them unless a good offer comes up.

  20. #40
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    Bargs and a beefed-up Ed Davis as the starters for the future ... with Amir as the first bench big, and ideally Reggie if he'd come for around half the mid-level.
    Ajinca-Solo-Dorsey ... I'd take any of them as end of benchers.
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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