View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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  • A

    1 1.49%
  • B

    18 26.87%
  • C

    40 59.70%
  • D

    8 11.94%
  • F

    0 0%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #2301
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I wasn't claiming that YOU used that argument to defend Bargnani. Rather that the same argument was used to defend Bargnani. Things like his teammates were stealing his rebounds, his teammates were so bad at offense Bargnani was getting double or triple teamed and shot a bad %, his defense only looked bad because Jose and Demar were pylons, he needed to take alot of long 2s or 3s because his teammates couldn't shoot and/or to open things up for his teammates etc.

    The reality is Demar is inefficient because of what he is capable of doing and how he does it.



    So we shouldn't expect a starting/core player/10mil a year player to play like it? How do you seperate that from, what I assume is, a desire to see a team win?

    If John Lucas was given a max contract and became the teams franchise player while continuing to play the same way that would be acceptable? After all no one would expect him to live up to those lofty goals... so it would be fine. Right?

    Its not a matter of my personal expectations of Demar. Trust me when I say, much like Bargnani, my expectations of him are low. Real low. But he still exists as a key player on this team (minutes, $s, usage etc) and as such, if this team is going to win or go anywhere, he needs to play like it. Until that changes, ie his role is reduced or traded etc, it really doesn't matter if I or anyone else expects Demar to be a superstar or a complete zero. He has to play up to the usefulness and expectations of his role. He's not a trading card, he is a player. What he does (or does not do) impacts results.

    I'm a fan of this team, not its players aside from their function to this team. I could care less how much or little success anyone has except for how it does and will impact results.

    Sometimes I wonder if I'm rare in that belief.......
    i think its bizarre that you can be a 'fan of the team' but don't care about the players. whats the point if you don't actually like anyone playing?

    as for the whole contract argument, i agree with TRX. were you expecting derozan to ask for LESS money or something?

  2. #2302
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Of course, but my point is that one observation makes sense and one doesn't. It makes sense to say, "Demar will be paid $9.5 million next season? What was Colangelo thinking?" It doesn't make sense to say, "Demar will be paid $9.5 million next season? Why isn't he a top ten SG?" Not only does he have to make up for his own deficiencies, he has to make up for Colangelo's? You can't really expect him to play like a $10 million a year player just because he's paid like one; you should expect though that if he's not a $10 million a year player that he doesn't get paid like one.

    It's kind of a subtle difference, but the point is: yes, the effect on the team is the same, but you're holding the wrong party accountable.
    In the salary cap reality of the NBA, you can't really separate the two though. Every franchise has a limited amount of money to build a winning team, so getting positive 'bang for you buck' out of every dollar spent is critical. Yes, there are 2 parts to the value equation for every player: contract amount and player production. Whether the player is to blame for not 'earning' his contract or management (or supply & demand realities in the league at the time of the contract signing/extension) is to blame for offering 'too much' to the player, the net result is the same; insufficient 'bang for your buck'. That's the conclusion I've arrived at for DeRozan and I think both parties are partly to blame in his case, but the source of blame doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

    I wouldn't be nearly as hard on DeRozan if he was going to be making around the MLE (ie: $4-6M per season). I'd even suggest he be moved into the 2nd unit, so the redundancy with Gay could be minimized and he could ideally become more efficient scoring against the opposition's 2nd unit. However, his contract - within the confines of the salary cap structure - makes that an invalid option because it would represent a significant waste of money (no 2nd unit player should be making $9.5M).

    Moving forward, I think it's absolutely fair to evaluate DeRozan against 2 benchmarks (goes for all players, not just DeRozan):
    1. DeRozan compared to all starting SGs (really should be all starting SF/SG, since wing positions have become nearly interchangeable)
    2. DeRozan compared to all players making around $9.5M per season (to compare the 'bang for your buck')

    I have a hard time believing DeRozan would ever come out of those evaluations with a positive review, let alone being considered a favourable 'bang for your buck'. When you consider him as the team's 2nd wing option behind Gay (another below average 'bang for your buck' type player with a similar style of play), it would further diminish DeRozan and his contract. Is it DeRozan's fault? Is it BC's fault? Is it the league's fault? Does it matter?

    The bottom line for me is:
    1. The Raptors have way too much salary cap committed to inefficient volume scorers at the wing position.
    2. DeRozan isn't worth $9.5M per season.
    3. DeRozan is very likely a much better trade asset than any other wing on the team (given age, salary, talent and potential).
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Apr 15th, 2013 at 12:13 PM.

  3. #2303
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    It absolutely matters whose fault it is because:

    1. It leads to unrealistic player expectations. All you can ask is that players improve year to year. Can you really expect more improvement from a player because, for example, he's making $11 million instead of $6 million? Not really.
    2. If every player is overpaid on the team, it's not their faults! Replace management!

    I realize "Fire Colangelo" is not exactly a new thought, but yeah...

  4. #2304
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    It absolutely matters whose fault it is because:

    1. It leads to unrealistic player expectations. All you can ask is that players improve year to year. Can you really expect more improvement from a player because, for example, he's making $11 million instead of $6 million? Not really.
    2. If every player is overpaid on the team, it's not their faults! Replace management!

    I realize "Fire Colangelo" is not exactly a new thought, but yeah...
    I'm ready to replace management and the coaching staff, but that doesn't mean the players get a free pass if their value equation is not up to par. Bargnani, DeRozan and Kleiza all need to go because they're not worth their contracts, even if it's not entirely their fault.

    Fields is also overpaid but unlikely to be moved, due to his contract and injury situation.

    Gay is also overpaid but unlikely to be moved, due to his contract and because of the hype surrounding his acquisition. I think he's a 'name' player that will be used to prove Toronto as a respectable destination, to both lure and keep players.

    Valanciunas and Ross are great value players, since they're on rookie-scale contracts.

    Amir is a great value player too. His contract is reasonable enough that he could even be moved to the 2nd unit (backup PF / 3rd big) if a better starting PF is acquired via trade, without worrying that too much money is being paid to a 2nd unit player.

    Lowry is a great value now, but has just a single season left to earn his next contract. I worry that he'll become overpaid too, if BC is still around next offseason.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Apr 15th, 2013 at 12:31 PM.

  5. #2305
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    Of course. You can't really blame them for being the player they are, but you can certainly move them because the player they are is not worth their contract. Those are two different evaluations though. My post was really more for people who are mad at DeRozan for not being a superstar because that doesn't make sense.

  6. #2306
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Of course. You can't really blame them for being the player they are, but you can certainly move them because the player they are is not worth their contract. Those are two different evaluations though. My post was really more for people who are mad at DeRozan for not being a superstar because that doesn't make sense.
    I think when you're a starter who makes $9.5M a season (yes, I know he's only making $3M+ this season), there's a minimum set of expectations that come with the territory. I could care less about what the franchise says about him, or the fact that the Raptors PR team promotes DeRozan as the face of the franchise, as none of that marketing BS changes my expectation of him. I just think that he's an average starting wing in the NBA at best, who isn't worth $9.5M per season.

  7. #2307
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Of course, but my point is that one observation makes sense and one doesn't. It makes sense to say, "Demar will be paid $9.5 million next season? What was Colangelo thinking?" It doesn't make sense to say, "Demar will be paid $9.5 million next season? Why isn't he a top ten SG?" Not only does he have to make up for his own deficiencies, he has to make up for Colangelo's? You can't really expect him to play like a $10 million a year player just because he's paid like one; you should expect though that if he's not a $10 million a year player that he doesn't get paid like one.

    It's kind of a subtle difference, but the point is: yes, the effect on the team is the same, but you're holding the wrong party accountable.
    Thats just turning this into a semantics game.

    I'll keep this simple:

    A player is paid X ($ under a salary cap) to achieve Y (help win games).

    If a player isn't producing Y atleast up to what he gets in X, he is hurting the team. The magnitude of which is greater the higher X is or the lower Y is.

    Its ALL Colangelo's fault for giving Demar X when he couldn't achieve Y

    But it doesn't change the fact that X is significantly > Y. And that is the single most important part of the entire equation.

    It wouldn't matter if Demar rejected the contract initially, asked for less, and Colangelo forced him to take the money. Demar still needs to play up to his contract/role to not be a burden on the teams chances for success. As it stands he has not been able to and will therefore hurt the team (aside from his play vs usage) by making it more difficult to get players who can help the team more efficiently.

  8. #2308
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    i think its bizarre that you can be a 'fan of the team' but don't care about the players. whats the point if you don't actually like anyone playing?

    as for the whole contract argument, i agree with TRX. were you expecting derozan to ask for LESS money or something?
    When did I say I didn't like anyone playing? I like Demar just fine. Seems like a nice kid and is a hard worker. But that means jack sh*t if its not leading to results on the court.

    As for the 2nd part, I'm not expecting Demar to have done or do anything. But he NEEDS to play up to his contract/role or he is overpaid. If he can't he should be replaced with someone who can. This really isn't that complicated.

  9. #2309
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    First Rap to ever start and play 82 straight games!

    Hes gets an A- this season.

  10. #2310
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    First Rap to ever start and play 82 straight games!

    Hes gets an A- this season.
    that's not true, off the top of my head I'm 100% sure Anthony Parker did that one year. I'm also pretty sure Alvin did it once.

    I mean, I respect Demar for doing it, but don't just make shit up without checking if it's true.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Apr 17th, 2013 at 11:31 PM.

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  12. #2311
    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    that's not true, off the top of my head I'm 100% sure Anthony Parker did that one year. I'm also pretty sure Alvin did it once.

    I mean, I respect Demar for doing it, but don't just make shit up without checking if it's true.
    Anthony and Demar are the only ones :P

  13. #2312
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote rocwell wrote: View Post
    Anthony and Demar are the only ones :P
    Alvin
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...willial02.html

    Oh, a guy named Vince Carter did it too
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...cartevi01.html
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Apr 17th, 2013 at 11:47 PM.

  14. #2313
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Correction via Raptors Media

    RaptorsMR ‏@RaptorsMR 11m

    Correction. DeRozan first Raptor to record 82 starts in multiple seasons. Mea culpa.

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  16. #2314
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Correction via Raptors Media
    better

  17. #2315
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Thats intense, Demar doesnt break down!

    Thats something valueful that people should take into account, not missing games means a lot!
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  18. #2316
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Question. Do you guys think DeRozan has FINALLY turned the corner? i mean, it's tough to evaluate players on non playoff team this time of the year. But DeRozan looked amazing these last 2 weeks i'm not gonna lie. If he can carry his play these last 2 weeks to next year then i guess were looking at a future all-star player?? because that's what he looks like right now.

    This is why DeRozan is so frustrating to watch.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  19. #2317
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Question. Do you guys think DeRozan has FINALLY turned the corner? i mean, it's tough to evaluate players on non playoff team this time of the year. But DeRozan looked amazing these last 2 weeks i'm not gonna lie. If he can carry his play these last 2 weeks to next year then i guess were looking at a future all-star player?? because that's what he looks like right now.

    This is why DeRozan is so frustrating to watch.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  20. #2318
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Question. Do you guys think DeRozan has FINALLY turned the corner? i mean, it's tough to evaluate players on non playoff team this time of the year. But DeRozan looked amazing these last 2 weeks i'm not gonna lie. If he can carry his play these last 2 weeks to next year then i guess were looking at a future all-star player?? because that's what he looks like right now.

    This is why DeRozan is so frustrating to watch.
    Hate to be that guy, but all these great games were post-realization of a failed playoff push.

    Hmm... I feel like I've seen this somewhere before... oh ya, every single Raptor season ever.

  21. #2319
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    lol when he scores he doesnt do anything else so he still wont be a allstar

  22. #2320
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    lol when he scores he doesnt do anything else so he still wont be a allstar
    True he really doesn't he needs to give it on both ends. Playing D is what gets players hurt Remember Ware out of Louisville??? (too soon?) the fact DeRozan only help defends is probably a good reason behind his longevity.

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