View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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  • A

    1 1.49%
  • B

    18 26.87%
  • C

    40 59.70%
  • D

    8 11.94%
  • F

    0 0%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #2441
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    His d is fine, I mean really, I havent seen this team play D yet, so I cant tell if he is horrible, or if the team D just sucks.


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    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/...point-shooter/


    More mainpage DeRozan talk, this time from Blake Murphy.

    Spoiler Alert: Once again we are putting all chips down on hope when that hope is the lesser outcome.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #2443
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Not knowing anything about basketball, I was jus wondering something. If DeRozan needs a 3 point shot to keep the defence honest and force his defender to stay closer to him, wouldn't developing his passing skills accomplish the same thing?

    Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 4

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    "Statistics are often pushed aside when they don't back one's opinion"

    Conversely, statistics are almost always used to push one's opinion, regardless of sometimes veiled "objectivity" disclaimers like "don't tell the whole story" like what Tim stated, which is then ignored in this "not subjectivity" ranking.

    "different players role. The problem is DD is not great at his"

    I know you wish to simplify the "role" thing into stat like factors such as score, rebound, defend, but you seem to miss my major point about roles, and their difficulty factors, being significantly different for a guy starting (against opponent starters), playing 36 minutes, the team needing him to make 16 shots, vs a guy playing 26 minutes off the bench (against opponent bench guys), taking 6,7 shots. I don't care how extensive the list of stats used is, grouping these two types of players in the same ranking "system" is still comparing pommes (apples) to pommes de terre (potatoes). Tim also admits that some stats (DRtg?) are heavily influenced by team DRtg, yet still uses it as part of his non-subjective ranking of individuals. Huh? It's this ranking system that you're actually cross-promoting into these forums, and saying it's not subjective? Really?

    "He has been given every opportunity to show differently."

    This is an oft repeated refrain of yours, usually accompanied by how many minutes he's played, but it does nothing to illuminate the validity, or not, of Tim's ranking according to stats. How about addressing my point about the direct influence upon the number crunching of different teams, different styles of play, different teammates, etc., which are factors that are totally ignored when ranking players by stats. To transcribe a couple of examples that I posted as comments on Tim's post:

    Paul Pierce. A likely HOFer, right?

    In his 3rd year..454 FG%, .383 3P%
    In his 4th year .442 FG%, .404 3P%
    In his 5th year .416 FG%, .302 3P%
    In his 6th year .402 FG%, .299 3P%

    See any big drops there? Those 2 terrible shooting years were Jim OBrien's 2nd year coaching, and half of 3rd year before he was canned. A new coach (Doc Rivers) the following year, and Pierce's stats shot back up to approx. his 3rd year's. What, a guy of Pierce's quality had not 1, but 2 "off years"? At a young age, that seems rather unlikely. Perhaps his team and the way it was being run had something to do with it?

    "Off years", yeah, Just like Tim W is saying about Afflalo. Some mysterious "off year malady",,,,,, or increased minutes, more responsibility, taking more shots, in a different system, with a different team. What's your guess?

    Another HOF example: Jason Kidd. In his last 2 years, 1st with Dallas, 2nd with Knicks. He plays almost the same minutes, all of his basic stats stay close to the same, but is AST average drops from 5.5 to 3.3. What? He suddenly lost the skill to assist, and it's the only skill he lost,,,,,,, or different team, different teammates, different system?

    There are many examples that could be cited, but the point is that every single one of this long list of stats used as "ranking" can, and are, skewed by the variables associated with different roles on different teams, playing different styles, etc.. I understand that these things are near impossible to quantify. I simply raise them to point out that there is nothing accurate about ranking players based on stats alone.
    Omg you are my new favourite poster.

    I think what people don't understand when looking at efficiency, is they try to compare guys who are forced to take a lot of shots and play a high volume game to role players. That's why you get people coming here and saying Danny Green is a better player than DeMar DeRozan. He only takes half the shots DeRozan has to, and most of them are wide open which is why he's so damn efficient.

    The bigger your role in the offense, the more your efficiency is going to drop. This is a very simple concept (just look at Paul George's decreases in shooting efficiency as his role with Indiana increased). You can't compare players with usage ratings in the mid-20s like DeRozan to 3+D role players with usage ratings in the low-mid teens. I constantly see this crap about trading him for a 3+D player. Now you ask that guy to take 15 shots a game, good luck getting him to maintain his super-efficient percentages in that role.

  5. #2445
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure what this is suppose to mean.

    I assume I am being directed to the fact he is:

    19th in FG
    17th in FGA
    7th in FTM
    8th in FTA
    11th in Total Points
    17th in PPG
    17th in MPG


    To which I would reply:

    1) the totals are skewed by 36mpg and 82 games played.
    2) he was 225th in TS%
    3) he was 318th in eFG%
    Find me 1 player in DeRozan's range for usage, shot attempts and minutes played that is significantly more efficient and isn't a superstar. Just one.

  6. #2446
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Find me 1 player in DeRozan's range for usage, shot attempts and minutes played that is significantly more efficient and isn't a superstar. Just one.
    Why bother?

    That doesn't change the fact he is an average at best offensive player who settles for long 2s and is a mediocre at best defensive player.

    That replied quote RIGHT THERE is the PERFECT example of the Raptor fan content with MEDIOCRITY and hoping for AVERAGE AT BEST. BOOM.

    I'm not happy to settle. If you are, you've picked the right team to cheer for it would appear.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #2447
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Omg you are my new favourite poster.

    I think what people don't understand when looking at efficiency, is they try to compare guys who are forced to take a lot of shots and play a high volume game to role players. That's why you get people coming here and saying Danny Green is a better player than DeMar DeRozan. He only takes half the shots DeRozan has to, and most of them are wide open which is why he's so damn efficient.

    The bigger your role in the offense, the more your efficiency is going to drop. This is a very simple concept (just look at Paul George's decreases in shooting efficiency as his role with Indiana increased). You can't compare players with usage ratings in the mid-20s like DeRozan to 3+D role players with usage ratings in the low-mid teens. I constantly see this crap about trading him for a 3+D player. Now you ask that guy to take 15 shots a game, good luck getting him to maintain his super-efficient percentages in that role.
    You're missing some serious points here in your quest to defend DeRozan's honour.


    #1 DeRozan doesn't have the skill set to be an efficient role player.

    #2 DeRozan doesn't have the skill set to be an efficient go to scorer.

    #3 Who is talking about trading DD for a 3+D player to take 15 shots per game? I believe people are talking about getting a player with a better skill set relative to his contract and/or getting a better player to mesh with the players currently under contract. Does DeRozan's skill set mesh well with a punch and kick Lowry? Nope. A similar Gay? Nope. A hustle and grunt Amir? Nope. A post up/screen roller JV? Nope.


    Bold: You forget that offense is just 50% of the game and the other 50% is what wins championships.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  9. #2448
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    #3 Who is talking about trading DD for a 3+D player to take 15 shots per game? I believe people are talking about getting a player with a better skill set relative to his contract and/or getting a better player to mesh with the players currently under contract. Does DeRozan's skill set mesh well with a punch and kick Lowry? Nope. A similar Gay? Nope. A hustle and grunt Amir? Nope. A post up/screen roller JV? Nope.


    Bold: You forget that offense is just 50% of the game and the other 50% is what wins championships.
    Bingo

  10. #2449
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Why bother?

    That doesn't change the fact he is an average at best offensive player who settles for long 2s and is a mediocre at best defensive player.

    That replied quote RIGHT THERE is the PERFECT example of the Raptor fan content with MEDIOCRITY and hoping for AVERAGE AT BEST. BOOM.

    I'm not happy to settle. If you are, you've picked the right team to cheer for it would appear.
    Jesus Christ you are a douchebag. You didn't prove anything just type "BOOM" and try to overpower my argument with garbage lol.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You're missing some serious points here in your quest to defend DeRozan's honour.


    #1 DeRozan doesn't have the skill set to be an efficient role player.

    #2 DeRozan doesn't have the skill set to be an efficient go to scorer.

    #3 Who is talking about trading DD for a 3+D player to take 15 shots per game? I believe people are talking about getting a player with a better skill set relative to his contract and/or getting a better player to mesh with the players currently under contract. Does DeRozan's skill set mesh well with a punch and kick Lowry? Nope. A similar Gay? Nope. A hustle and grunt Amir? Nope. A post up/screen roller JV? Nope.


    Bold: You forget that offense is just 50% of the game and the other 50% is what wins championships.
    Actually I have not forgotten that offense is just 50% of the game. In fact I am constantly reiterating that (this was one of the main reasons I pointed towards for Lowry being a top 10 PG).

    DeRozan is the kind of shooting guard that would be extremely effective on a better team as the 3rd option. He doesn't need to be a go-to scorer or role player. He needs to be a secondary or even tertiary scoring option. Hence his 9.5M/year contract and not 15M/year contract that a real go-to scorer would have (see Harden). The only shooting guard better than him that's getting paid less is Manu Ginobili, and that's mostly because he's 36 with nowhere to go but down and also due to the mutual loyalty and respect between him and the Spurs.

    Rip Hamilton was basically the exact same player DeRozan is right now when he won the championship.

    17.6ppg
    4.0apg
    3.6rpg
    45.5% FG
    26.5% 3PT
    86.8% FT
    52% TS
    16 PER
    25% Usage

    I think DeRozan's numbers have been posted enough times for you to be able to pick up on the fact that those 5th year numbers are almost exactly the same as DeRozan's numbers from last season. He was primarily used off ball, coming off screens for mid-range jumpers and attacking the rim and slashing. Not being asked to fucking isolate and try to break down defenders.

    The salary cap was around 43M back then, and Rip made 6.5M so 15% of the salary cap. DeRozan currently makes 16.3% of the salary cap.

    And aren't you the one who keeps saying we need to get rid of Lowry and Gay? So why do you care whether DeRozan meshes with them?

  11. #2450
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Jesus Christ you are a douchebag. You didn't prove anything just type "BOOM" and try to overpower my argument with garbage lol.



    Actually I have not forgotten that offense is just 50% of the game. In fact I am constantly reiterating that (this was one of the main reasons I pointed towards for Lowry being a top 10 PG).

    DeRozan is the kind of shooting guard that would be extremely effective on a better team as the 3rd option. He doesn't need to be a go-to scorer or role player. He needs to be a secondary or even tertiary scoring option. Hence his 9.5M/year contract and not 15M/year contract that a real go-to scorer would have (see Harden). The only shooting guard better than him that's getting paid less is Manu Ginobili, and that's mostly because he's 36 with nowhere to go but down and also due to the mutual loyalty and respect between him and the Spurs.

    Rip Hamilton was basically the exact same player DeRozan is right now when he won the championship.

    17.6ppg
    4.0apg
    3.6rpg
    45.5% FG
    26.5% 3PT
    86.8% FT
    52% T
    16 PER
    25% Usage

    I think DeRozan's numbers have been posted enough times for you to be able to pick up on the fact that those 5th year numbers are almost exactly the same as DeRozan's numbers from last season. He was primarily used off ball, coming off screens for mid-range jumpers and attacking the rim and slashing. Not being asked to fucking isolate and try to break down defenders.

    The salary cap was around 43M back then, and Rip made 6.5M so 15% of the salary cap. DeRozan currently makes 16.3% of the salary cap.

    And aren't you the one who keeps saying we need to get rid of Lowry and Gay? So why do you care whether DeRozan meshes with them?
    I've been called worse by better.... so there you go. But thanks anyways.

    My BOOM showed you're a fan of mediocrity. You have done nothing to show DeRozan is not what I say: an average at best SG who settles for long 2s and is mediocre on defense. You are striving for a below average player to become average to a little above while making 2x the average player and over 3x the median. You are the classic Raptor fan which I myself was for many years.

    You keep spinning whatever fantasies you need to convince yourself whatever about what DeRozan will become. I've been down this road. It doesn't end where you hope.

    Bold 1: So? And? Where is the Raptors Billups? Prince? Wallace? Sheed? Brown?

    Bold 2: I'm the one who is happy to go in whatever direction but would prefer to part with Lowry and Gay. Why do I care? Because the Raptors are screwed with DeRozan one way or another. If they tank, he's already shown he can't handle being the guy and does nothing to help the team now. If they compete, he doesn't mesh with the talent currently under contract.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #2451
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've been called worse by better.... so there you go. But thanks anyways.

    My BOOM showed you're a fan of mediocrity. You have done nothing to show DeRozan is not what I say: an average at best SG who settles for long 2s and is mediocre on defense. You are striving for a below average player to become average to a little above while making 2x the average player and over 3x the median. You are the classic Raptor fan which I myself was for many years.
    What lol... can you explain how DeRozan is a below average SG?

    You keep spinning whatever fantasies you need to convince yourself whatever about what DeRozan will become. I've been down this road. It doesn't end where you hope.
    I didn't even talk about what he'll become, I spoke about what he is. Where the hell did I say I hope this road is going to end? Stop acting like I just started watching the Raptors you have no idea what my background is with the team, or how old I am.

    Bold 1: So? And? Where is the Raptors Billups? Prince? Wallace? Sheed? Brown?
    You say this every time a player comparison is made. Last time it was "Where's Hibbert, Granger, West?" We don't need to get the exact same players, we just need to build a good team.

    Bold 2: I'm the one who is happy to go in whatever direction but would prefer to part with Lowry and Gay. Why do I care? Because the Raptors are screwed with DeRozan one way or another. If they tank, he's already shown he can't handle being the guy and does nothing to help the team now. If they compete, he doesn't mesh with the talent currently under contract.
    This makes no sense whatsoever. If we want to tank and we make DeRozan the de-facto #1 option, since he "can't handle being the guy" doesn't that only help us lose more games? I thought the idea of tanking would be to get a legit #1 option anyway...

    And I'm not sure how he doesn't mesh with our current talent. DeMar is supposed to be a primarily off-ball player. Coming off screens for jumpers, cutting and slashing to the rim for FTs and getting easy buckets from mismatches against smaller guards in the low post. You said it yourself that he's not supposed to be "the guy". No shit, anyone who thinks he is, is delusional. But to say he doesn't mesh with K-Lo and Gay is kind of silly considering how much his efficiency increased when defenses had to key in on Gay instead of him. Here are his stats since we acquired Gay and Lowry became a full-time starter (no source, someone from RealGM found them).

    19.0 ppg (5.8 FTA, 45.3 FG%, 83.7 FT%, 31.3 3FG%)
    53.7 TS%
    24.6 USG%
    101.4 ORtg/103.7 DRtg
    2.8 apg
    3.4 rpg

    Compared to before the Gay trade (approximate because these are pre ASB #s)

    17.6ppg (5.0 FTA, 43.5 FG%, 83.8 FT%, 27.7 3FG%)
    51.4 TS%
    (I can't find USG or O/DRtg)
    2.3apg
    4.2rpg


    An increase in both volume AND efficiency because he was getting better looks.


    Also:

    Gay in Memphis:
    PPG: 17.2
    GP: 42
    MIN: 36.5
    FG%: .408
    3PT%: .310
    REB: 5.9
    AST: 2.6
    STL: 1.3
    FT%: .776
    PER: 14.1

    Gay in Toronto:
    TORONTO:
    PPG: 19.5
    GP: 32
    MIN: 34.8
    FG%: .425
    3PT%: .336
    REB: 6.3
    AST: 2.9
    STL: 1.8
    FT%: .853
    PER: 17.2

    Improvement in every single statistic. I'm not suggesting that we have a championship team but to say DeRozan doesn't mesh so he needs to go is borderline idiotic.

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    Btw I just want to point something out. Sort of unrelated, but if Minnesota and Portland get off to bad starts. I guarantee you they will be forced to move Love/Aldridge. Those are two guys who if acquired could take this team from fighting for 8th, to potentially a top 4 team in the conference.

    And don't tell me those teams wouldn't consider deals based around Amir, Ross and a myriad of draft picks.

  14. #2453
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    I triple post too much, but one way the coaching staff can increase DeMar's effectiveness even more is to have him shoot more from the corner three. It's essentially the same distance as the long two he likes to take but worth 3 points. The Spurs do this with Kawhi Leonard. He is terrible at shooting 3s from every spot but the corner.


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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Btw I just want to point something out. Sort of unrelated, but if Minnesota and Portland get off to bad starts. I guarantee you they will be forced to move Love/Aldridge. Those are two guys who if acquired could take this team from fighting for 8th, to potentially a top 4 team in the conference.

    And don't tell me those teams wouldn't consider deals based around Amir, Ross and a myriad of draft picks.
    Love would be an amazing complement for JV, Rudy, and DD--provides spacing and 3pt shooting, where our wings have weaknesses, and provides elite rebounding, which JV is not terrible at, but isn't great either. On the other side of the coin, his lack of athleticism on D would be offset by JV and hopefully an improvement on that end from DeMar.

    I'm skeptical that a deal could actually get done...but then again I would've laughed at you if you had told me in June that the Knicks would give up Novak and 3 draft picks for Bargs, so maybe Masai has some magic to work.

  16. #2455
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    Is there a rumour that Love would be shopped? If not, I'm not sure why we're assuming it'll happen following a slow start. He's signed until 2016 (although, I'd love....no pun intended....to see him here).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Is there a rumour that Love would be shopped? If not, I'm not sure why we're assuming it'll happen following a slow start. He's signed until 2016 (although, I'd love....no pun intended....to see him here).
    He has a player option in 2015-16, hoopshype is wrong.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    So? And? Where is the Raptors Billups? Prince? Wallace? Sheed? Brown?
    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    What lol... can you explain how DeRozan is a below average SG?

    You say this every time a player comparison is made. Last time it was "Where's Hibbert, Granger, West?" We don't need to get the exact same players, we just need to build a good team.
    I agree with the principle of building a good team, and creating a system based around the strengths of core players as opposed to forcing a system upon them. I'll bet we all agree with this, at least to a certain degree.

    Derozan, though, is a special case, because his skill-set is atypical for a worthwhile SG. Mainly in that he can't shoot 3s well, and he isn't a beast on defence. Worthwhile shooting guards generally have at least one of those qualities.

    This makes Hamilton a good comparison, because he's one of the few SGs who played on a championship level team with a skill-set similar to DD. So it makes sense to look at what was around him in Detroit.

    And the guy who really sticks out on that team for me was Rasheed. PF/Cs who can shoot 3s and defend the rim - qualities that directly made up for Hamilton's weaknesses - are incredibly rare. Almost non-existent. Could be that without those specific qualities that Sheed brought to the table, the Pistons wouldn't have reached anywhere near the levels they did.

    Of course, it's more complicated than that. Ben Wallace was a really unique player, which adds another big, fat wrinkle to any analysis of what was going on with that Detroit team. But I think there's real merit to the idea that if you have a Hamilton/Derozan-esque player as your 2, having a stretch 4/5 who can block shots is essential. Which, as has been said before, would help to explain why BC insisted on hanging on to Bargnani.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Btw I just want to point something out. Sort of unrelated, but if Minnesota and Portland get off to bad starts. I guarantee you they will be forced to move Love/Aldridge. Those are two guys who if acquired could take this team from fighting for 8th, to potentially a top 4 team in the conference.

    And don't tell me those teams wouldn't consider deals based around Amir, Ross and a myriad of draft picks.
    I see Love going to Cleveland or LA. Cleveland to play with Kyrie (and they have more picks/prospects than Toronto), or LA to play in a big market. LA is going to have boat loads of cap space and players "love" playing there. Plus he's from there.

    Getting him to Toronto would be very difficult in my opinion. Aldridge as well.

    And Top 4 would still be doubtful. Love hasn't done much in Minny and Aldridge hasn't really done much in Portland. You could look at Portland's roster for example and easily compare that to Toronto's.

    Gay/Batum
    DD/Matthews
    Lowry/Lillard

    .. and even with Aldridge they didn't get into the playoffs last year.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    What lol... can you explain how DeRozan is a below average SG?



    I didn't even talk about what he'll become, I spoke about what he is. Where the hell did I say I hope this road is going to end? Stop acting like I just started watching the Raptors you have no idea what my background is with the team, or how old I am.



    You say this every time a player comparison is made. Last time it was "Where's Hibbert, Granger, West?" We don't need to get the exact same players, we just need to build a good team.



    This makes no sense whatsoever. If we want to tank and we make DeRozan the de-facto #1 option, since he "can't handle being the guy" doesn't that only help us lose more games? I thought the idea of tanking would be to get a legit #1 option anyway...

    And I'm not sure how he doesn't mesh with our current talent. DeMar is supposed to be a primarily off-ball player. Coming off screens for jumpers, cutting and slashing to the rim for FTs and getting easy buckets from mismatches against smaller guards in the low post. You said it yourself that he's not supposed to be "the guy". No shit, anyone who thinks he is, is delusional. But to say he doesn't mesh with K-Lo and Gay is kind of silly considering how much his efficiency increased when defenses had to key in on Gay instead of him. Here are his stats since we acquired Gay and Lowry became a full-time starter (no source, someone from RealGM found them).

    19.0 ppg (5.8 FTA, 45.3 FG%, 83.7 FT%, 31.3 3FG%)
    53.7 TS%
    24.6 USG%
    101.4 ORtg/103.7 DRtg
    2.8 apg
    3.4 rpg

    Compared to before the Gay trade (approximate because these are pre ASB #s)

    17.6ppg (5.0 FTA, 43.5 FG%, 83.8 FT%, 27.7 3FG%)
    51.4 TS%
    (I can't find USG or O/DRtg)
    2.3apg
    4.2rpg


    An increase in both volume AND efficiency because he was getting better looks.


    Also:

    Gay in Memphis:
    PPG: 17.2
    GP: 42
    MIN: 36.5
    FG%: .408
    3PT%: .310
    REB: 5.9
    AST: 2.6
    STL: 1.3
    FT%: .776
    PER: 14.1

    Gay in Toronto:
    TORONTO:
    PPG: 19.5
    GP: 32
    MIN: 34.8
    FG%: .425
    3PT%: .336
    REB: 6.3
    AST: 2.9
    STL: 1.8
    FT%: .853
    PER: 17.2

    Improvement in every single statistic. I'm not suggesting that we have a championship team but to say DeRozan doesn't mesh so he needs to go is borderline idiotic.
    Circles. That is all this is. I'm tired of it. I bet others are too. We'll all see soon enough. I hope nothing but the best for DD but I'm not betting on it.

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I agree with the principle of building a good team, and creating a system based around the strengths of core players as opposed to forcing a system upon them. I'll bet we all agree with this, at least to a certain degree.

    Derozan, though, is a special case, because his skill-set is atypical for a worthwhile SG. Mainly in that he can't shoot 3s well, and he isn't a beast on defence. Worthwhile shooting guards generally have at least one of those qualities.

    This makes Hamilton a good comparison, because he's one of the few SGs who played on a championship level team with a skill-set similar to DD. So it makes sense to look at what was around him in Detroit.

    And the guy who really sticks out on that team for me was Rasheed. PF/Cs who can shoot 3s and defend the rim - qualities that directly made up for Hamilton's weaknesses - are incredibly rare. Almost non-existent. Could be that without those specific qualities that Sheed brought to the table, the Pistons wouldn't have reached anywhere near the levels they did.

    Of course, it's more complicated than that. Ben Wallace was a really unique player, which adds another big, fat wrinkle to any analysis of what was going on with that Detroit team. But I think there's real merit to the idea that if you have a Hamilton/Derozan-esque player as your 2, having a stretch 4/5 who can block shots is essential. Which, as has been said before, would help to explain why BC insisted on hanging on to Bargnani.
    All I said is that current DeRozan and 03-04 Hamilton are basically the same player on the same contract (in proportion to the salary cap). This was in response to him being called a "below average player", which he clearly is not.

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