View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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  • A

    1 1.49%
  • B

    18 26.87%
  • C

    40 59.70%
  • D

    8 11.94%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #3081
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    No sarcasm at all.
    Wow I'm actually shocked my comment kind of changed your mind a bit on somethings. I feel accomplished lol

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I see.

    I'm being called out for discussing, sharing, and debating ideas and opinions on an open Raptor forum.

    Good on you Captain CallOut.

    meh, too much drama.

    wanna yap about Derozan, about how shitty he is, about how he's a hahaha "inefficient high volume chucker".... go ahead. I'm certainly not gonna write an essay to tell you why thats bollocks.

    But it is.

    And honestly, calm the f^%$ down princess, I didn't run over your dog, I just called ya out a little. Please don't be offended by that, its not anything more than that. Its just basketball chatter man.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post


    It is tough to have critical discussions in sports. For a lot of people they are emotionally invested.

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    Quote CGarbs wrote: View Post
    Thought I'd attempt to switch things up in this thread a bit:

    I don't get to watch very many Raptors games(though follow religiously on my iphone when I can't watch), but I got to see the Raptors vs. Clippers game recently and saw things from Demar offensively I have never seen before! Demar had more of a point guard type hesitation dribble of which he was able to attack with in various ways as he faced up his defender, Also once he made his attack moves I noticed he was able to make some quick and low crossovers to shake up his attack angles. I saw this mainly in the 4th quarter as the Raps were trying to get back in it. My questions is: Has DeMar actually grown with his handles or was the Clipper defence just so soft that he could dribble more confidently than usual? Have any of you seen this development as well?
    His handles haven't changed that much, he's just really understanding the game now to a level where any defense thrown at him doesn't phase him as much as it would have in his 3rd or 4th season.

    Before we traded for Rudy, and during his tenture here, the double teams on top of the key always made Demar back out and reshuffle his handles and then pass it to Lowry or Rudy. He was always hesitant with his moves. Now its so fluid the way he moves using the screens and picks set up for him. He's really turned into a star.

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  6. #3085
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    meh, too much drama.

    wanna yap about Derozan, about how shitty he is, about how he's a hahaha "inefficient high volume chucker".... go ahead. I'm certainly not gonna write an essay to tell you why thats bollocks.

    But it is.

    And honestly, calm the f^%$ down princess, I didn't run over your dog, I just called ya out a little. Please don't be offended by that, its not anything more than that. Its just basketball chatter man.
    of course you're not gonna write an essay about why thats bollocks. you can't. because if its not some 10 paragraph diatribe about some irrelevant part of your life or just some boneheaded rude remark, you dont have much else to offer here.

  7. #3086
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    Of course, you're right.

    perhaps try to settle down and understand context and style. As well, perhaps reserve your silly and misguided anger for posts that are directed toward you.....few of mine ever have been, as you rarely have anything even remotely remarkable to say, but still, i'm sure a day will come when you will get your moment. Until then, you're just arguing for arguments sake, and thats a fools game young man.

    If you nee to know why Demar Derozan is much more that an inefficient volume shooter, there is google.com, or, about 300 posts on this very thread that explain, hence my reluctance to swim into those well travelled waters. it irks me that I have to actually point that out, but for you, anything man, I'm here to help you grow. Its my job as both your elder, and a person of more experience on the topic of discussion, and I am always happy to do it.


  8. #3087
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Of course, you're right.

    perhaps try to settle down and understand context and style. As well, perhaps reserve your silly and misguided anger for posts that are directed toward you.....few of mine ever have been, as you rarely have anything even remotely remarkable to say, but still, i'm sure a day will come when you will get your moment. Until then, you're just arguing for arguments sake, and thats a fools game young man.

    If you nee to know why Demar Derozan is much more that an inefficient volume shooter, there is google.com, or, about 300 posts on this very thread that explain, hence my reluctance to swim into those well travelled waters. it irks me that I have to actually point that out, but for you, anything man, I'm here to help you grow. Its my job as both your elder, and a person of more experience on the topic of discussion, and I am always happy to do it.

    Sadly none of that experience or seniority has helped you have a sweet clue about most things you ramble about.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  10. #3088
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    meh, too much drama.

    wanna yap about Derozan, about how shitty he is, about how he's a hahaha "inefficient high volume chucker".... go ahead. I'm certainly not gonna write an essay to tell you why thats bollocks.

    But it is.

    And honestly, calm the f^%$ down princess, I didn't run over your dog, I just called ya out a little. Please don't be offended by that, its not anything more than that. Its just basketball chatter man.
    You should try and do the same you ass clown.

    You don't have the right to call anyone out - nor do I for that matter. It is an open forum, ideas and discussion are why we're here.

    But call me out? Really? Please. Someone who offers very little in the way of new ideas to a discussion doesn't call someone out. Someone who ends discussion when he is clearly wrong with a, "I don't care anyways" doesn't get to call someone out. Someone who makes a big deal about signing all the big free agents with the reasoning of well Brooklyn/NY/LA all pay huge amounts doesn't get to call someone out.

    Why can't you call someone out?

    Because you're a buffoon. Buffoons aren't permitted to call anyone out. Buffoons just make a lot of noise with little purpose. That is you Craig. You are ignorant in many of the topics discussed here and you openly admit it. Tough to take a call out from an ignorant buffoon who openly ignores anything outside his comfort zone and knowledge area.


    By the way, DeRozan is inefficient and considering that is tied in to his consistency and decision making I'm glad that is my only complaint. He has come a long way.... much farther than I had ever thought possible and openly admit long before your "call out". Maybe when the day comes when you admit you are wrong rather than going on a bullshit rant about your age and experience you can call someone out. Maybe when you admit you are an idiot when using the payrolls of other teams to explain why the Raptors should spend you can can call someone out. Maybe when you take the time to learn what a statistic means rather than dismiss it because it doesn't jive with your opinion THEN you can call someone out.

    Until then keep being an ignorant buffoon.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Feb 16th, 2014 at 08:08 PM.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #3089
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    Chilling.

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    Consider this…

    -------------Kyrie Irving..........Demar
    USG% ...... 28.9----------------- 28.3
    ORTG ........108------------------ 109
    DRTG .......110------------------- 105
    OWS ...... 3.6-------------------- 3.5
    DWS ...... 2.1-------------------- 1.0

    So Demar is performing as good as Kyrie Irving (superstar, elite, voted-in all-star) on the offensive end, and obliterates him on the defensive end.

    And this….

    List of players with USG% > 28, & ORTG > 108

    http://bkref.com/tiny/HgWqI

    Kevin Durant
    Lebron James
    Kevin Love
    Blake Griffin
    Steph Curry
    Paul George
    Carmelo Anthony
    Lamarcus Aldridge
    Demar Derozan
    Kyrie Irving

    That’s crème de la crème de la crème right there. Demar is right there with Aldridge, George and Irving, actually. And consider that Demar’s USG% is actually closer to 30% since the Gay trade, while increasing his ORTG, and it’s even more impressive.

    So really, what more needs to be said. Demar is currently playing like a bonafide all-star. Period. And there are lot of improvements, beyond stats, such as: body language, clutchness, leadership – and accomplishing all of that as a first option.

    I, for one, was on the fence about Demar going into this season and I’m simply ecstatic to be proven wrong. I have absolutely no qualms admitting I was wrong, wrong, wrong about Demar. Whoop dee doo. LOL. Not sure why more people don’t adopt this mindset, and let go of their previous debating stance. It’s like the old saying about marriage … “ it’s better to be happy than right.” You just gotta take those unexpected pleasant surprises whenever you can get them and feel good about it, IMO.

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  14. #3091
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    I like all of what you say, except Kyrie is not a superstar, nor is he elite.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Consider this…

    -------------Kyrie Irving..........Demar
    USG% ...... 28.9----------------- 28.3
    ORTG ........108------------------ 109
    DRTG .......110------------------- 105
    OWS ...... 3.6-------------------- 3.5
    DWS ...... 2.1-------------------- 1.0

    So Demar is performing as good as Kyrie Irving (superstar, elite, voted-in all-star) on the offensive end, and obliterates him on the defensive end.

    And this….

    List of players with USG% > 28, & ORTG > 108

    http://bkref.com/tiny/HgWqI

    Kevin Durant
    Lebron James
    Kevin Love
    Blake Griffin
    Steph Curry
    Paul George
    Carmelo Anthony
    Lamarcus Aldridge
    Demar Derozan
    Kyrie Irving

    That’s crème de la crème de la crème right there. Demar is right there with Aldridge, George and Irving, actually. And consider that Demar’s USG% is actually closer to 30% since the Gay trade, while increasing his ORTG, and it’s even more impressive.

    So really, what more needs to be said. Demar is currently playing like a bonafide all-star. Period. And there are lot of improvements, beyond stats, such as: body language, clutchness, leadership – and accomplishing all of that as a first option.

    I, for one, was on the fence about Demar going into this season and I’m simply ecstatic to be proven wrong. I have absolutely no qualms admitting I was wrong, wrong, wrong about Demar. Whoop dee doo. LOL. Not sure why more people don’t adopt this mindset, and let go of their previous debating stance. It’s like the old saying about marriage … “ it’s better to be happy than right.” You just gotta take those unexpected pleasant surprises whenever you can get them and feel good about it, IMO.
    WOW..... Good post.

  17. #3093
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Consider this…

    -------------Kyrie Irving..........Demar
    USG% ...... 28.9----------------- 28.3
    ORTG ........108------------------ 109
    DRTG .......110------------------- 105
    OWS ...... 3.6-------------------- 3.5
    DWS ...... 2.1-------------------- 1.0

    So Demar is performing as good as Kyrie Irving (superstar, elite, voted-in all-star) on the offensive end, and obliterates him on the defensive end.

    And this….

    List of players with USG% > 28, & ORTG > 108

    http://bkref.com/tiny/pjWar

    Kevin Durant
    Lebron James
    Kevin Love
    Blake Griffin
    Steph Curry
    Paul George
    Carmelo Anthony
    Lamarcus Aldridge
    Demar Derozan
    Kyrie Irving

    That’s crème de la crème de la crème right there. Demar is right there with Aldridge, George and Irving, actually. And consider that Demar’s USG% is actually closer to 30% since the Gay trade, while increasing his ORTG, and it’s even more impressive.

    So really, what more needs to be said. Demar is currently playing like a bonafide all-star. Period. And there are lot of improvements, beyond stats, such as: body language, clutchness, leadership – and accomplishing all of that as a first option.

    I, for one, was on the fence about Demar going into this season and I’m simply ecstatic to be proven wrong. I have absolutely no qualms admitting I was wrong, wrong, wrong about Demar. Whoop dee doo. LOL. Not sure why more people don’t adopt this mindset, and let go of their previous debating stance. It’s like the old saying about marriage … “ it’s better to be happy than right.” You just gotta take those unexpected pleasant surprises whenever you can get them and feel good about it, IMO.
    a little bit of cherry picking here.

    at almost 30% USG, hes not producing nearly as many win shares as he should. and i think everyone knows that kyrie hasn't been exactly all that great this year so that comparison kind of falls flat.

    kyle lowry only gets about 20% USG, yet produces nearly twice as many win shares as demar. take that USG% filter down to 20% and now you have (http://bkref.com/tiny/y5KlS)

    1 Kevin Durant
    2 LeBron James
    3 Kevin Love
    4 Blake Griffin
    5 Stephen Curry
    6 Kyle Lowry (who by the way has an insane ORTG of 120 which is Lebron/Love level)
    7 Paul George
    8 Dirk Nowitzk
    9 Goran Dragic
    10 Chris Paul
    ...
    ...
    ...

    you have to go all the way down to #19 to see where demar is.


    even with 20% USG, kyle produced 8.1 win shares, compared to only 5.6 by demar who gets 10% more USG.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Mon Feb 17th, 2014 at 01:33 AM.

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  19. #3094
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post

    you have to go all the way down to #19 to see where demar is.

    This is where I have to make the same point I have been making. You have to go ALL the way down to #19. And this is WS right? win shares.. the Mighty god of advanced stats. The one stat that has one flaw, that is most brilliantly illustrated by one demar derozan. He's a high achiever on a low skill team. His team can't win, didn't win until lately. So be default his winshare total is always affected. (side note, this also shows us just how fantastic kyle Lowry has been this year...just a machine, how you don't have him resigned already I do not know...but thats another thread)

    But even with that said, ALL the way down.#19 is really, really good. When you're talking about a 24 year old guy who entered the NBA on NOTHING but potential, and has actually built off the potential, you take #19 and RUN. Hell, who is above him at his position there???? Harden? George? Curry (not really a 2). NOBODY ELSE IS ABOVE HIM!!!!

    I'd wager in 3 more full seasons, with Playoff experience, more time to grow, new coaches and players to learn from along the way, this guy will even be a tad higher than #19 on you list..... but guess what, he will STILL only cost you 9 million bucks.


    Guys are always going on and on about fiscal responsibility and the cap.... i ignore that stuff, but admit its important. So here you have the Golden Goose of cap friendly players, and you can read 30 pages of straight up demar Derozan anti fan club propaganda about how many shots he misses, how few rebounds he gets, and how he isn't an above average defender.

    I'm not sure how people can't connect the dots on this issue. Comparing him to a few other guys in the NBA that might be better, or close to better at a similar price is not the answer, because those guys are fucking valuable too, and the GM of whatever team they play on, he ain't letting them go.... it isn't how life works.

    derozan was a good draft pick, has been a slow but steady stock, and JUST THE TYPE OF GUY Masai ujiri is known to covet because of a safe return on a fair investment. Nobody here seems to mind Ujiri, nobody here minds good contracts, nobody here minds NBA allstars, nobody here minds derozans 7-10 Ft;s a night, or the foul trouble he creates for opposing bigs, bigs our starting center cannot handle yet, and nobody here minds DD's fantastic work ethic or team play, or his love for Toronto. They mind his FG% and his average defence.

    Thats a pretty lopsided argument, and really, a 3100 post thread to debate all that against two counter arguments is more than a little excessive. All insults, pettiness and unneeded negativity aside..... were really all looking a little ridiculous here, yours truly included.

    If there was anything I'd like to see from Demar, its just a bit more consistency, but that is improving everyday so im not terribly worried. I'd also like to see the offense itself change a bit and let DD operate from the high and low post more often like Kobe and MJ....he's mirrored a few of their moves, and I think he could do well there. bu Thats on Casey and his staff, as well, its a matter of that style fitting with the other guys on the floor.... other than that, derozan is a fantastic piece on this team moving forward, no doubt about it.
    Last edited by Superjudge; Mon Feb 17th, 2014 at 08:05 AM.

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  21. #3095
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    It would be great to create two more DeRozan threads...the "Nothing But Positive Comments DeRozan Thread" and the "Nothing But Negative Comments DeRozan Thread" and then the pro and con arguments could go to their respective threads and the "Everything DeMar DeRozan" thread could be left with info and comments about his role on the team, his personal activities, comments about his performance in specific games etc.

    It won't happen, and I understand that, just sometimes...

    I think DeMar is performing very well for the team, in most aspects. I believe his game will continue to improve as he continues to grow as a player, and particular issues with his game, most notably efficiency, will be resolved over the next couple of seasons. I think to get an upgrade at his position would cost him, plus a significant asset. I don't believe DD is holding the Raps back from taking that next step. Teams focus needs to be backup center, and improved bench.

  22. #3096
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    This is where I have to make the same point I have been making. You have to go ALL the way down to #19. And this is WS right? win shares.. the Mighty god of advanced stats. The one stat that has one flaw, that is most brilliantly illustrated by one demar derozan. He's a high achiever on a low skill team. His team can't win, didn't win until lately. So be default his winshare total is always affected. (side note, this also shows us just how fantastic kyle Lowry has been this year...just a machine, how you don't have him resigned already I do not know...but thats another thread)

    But even with that said, ALL the way down.#19 is really, really good. When you're talking about a 24 year old guy who entered the NBA on NOTHING but potential, and has actually built off the potential, you take #19 and RUN. Hell, who is above him at his position there???? Harden? George? Curry (not really a 2). NOBODY ELSE IS ABOVE HIM!!!!

    I'd wager in 3 more full seasons, with Playoff experience, more time to grow, new coaches and players to learn from along the way, this guy will even be a tad higher than #19 on you list..... but guess what, he will STILL only cost you 9 million bucks.


    Guys are always going on and on about fiscal responsibility and the cap.... i ignore that stuff, but admit its important. So here you have the Golden Goose of cap friendly players, and you can read 30 pages of straight up demar Derozan anti fan club propaganda about how many shots he misses, how few rebounds he gets, and how he isn't an above average defender.

    I'm not sure how people can't connect the dots on this issue. Comparing him to a few other guys in the NBA that might be better, or close to better at a similar price is not the answer, because those guys are fucking valuable too, and the GM of whatever team they play on, he ain't letting them go.... it isn't how life works.

    derozan was a good draft pick, has been a slow but steady stock, and JUST THE TYPE OF GUY Masai ujiri is known to covet because of a safe return on a fair investment. Nobody here seems to mind Ujiri, nobody here minds good contracts, nobody here minds NBA allstars, nobody here minds derozans 7-10 Ft;s a night, or the foul trouble he creates for opposing bigs, bigs our starting center cannot handle yet, and nobody here minds DD's fantastic work ethic or team play, or his love for Toronto. They mind his FG% and his average defence.

    Thats a pretty lopsided argument, and really, a 3100 post thread to debate all that against two counter arguments is more than a little excessive. All insults, pettiness and unneeded negativity aside..... were really all looking a little ridiculous here, yours truly included.

    If there was anything I'd like to see from Demar, its just a bit more consistency, but that is improving everyday so im not terribly worried. I'd also like to see the offense itself change a bit and let DD operate from the high and low post more often like Kobe and MJ....he's mirrored a few of their moves, and I think he could do well there. bu Thats on Casey and his staff, as well, its a matter of that style fitting with the other guys on the floor.... other than that, derozan is a fantastic piece on this team moving forward, no doubt about it.
    Great post. Lots of good thoughts there.

    Regarding the bold I'd only point out that his 2016-17 year is a player option. If he continues to play like this he is only going to be on a $9.5M contract for 2 more seasons. He'll be unrestricted at that time if he declines the third year. The new CBA does not make extensions before reaching UFA beneficial for players - like what we're seeing this year with Lowry.
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    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #3097
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    I'll still take it. Ignorance is bliss.



    Party on Garth!

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    It would be great to create two more DeRozan threads...the "Nothing But Positive Comments DeRozan Thread" and the "Nothing But Negative Comments DeRozan Thread" and then the pro and con arguments could go to their respective threads and the "Everything DeMar DeRozan" thread could be left with info and comments about his role on the team, his personal activities, comments about his performance in specific games etc.

    It won't happen, and I understand that, just sometimes...

    I think DeMar is performing very well for the team, in most aspects. I believe his game will continue to improve as he continues to grow as a player, and particular issues with his game, most notably efficiency, will be resolved over the next couple of seasons. I think to get an upgrade at his position would cost him, plus a significant asset. I don't believe DD is holding the Raps back from taking that next step. Teams focus needs to be backup center, and improved bench.
    hahahhaa I like it.

    You should see what I have to say about him when they are losing hahahaa

    the bipolarity of fanaticism is what brings us back...we can either hate, or love without regret!

    if only our partners would allow such behaviour!!!

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Consider this…

    -------------Kyrie Irving..........Demar
    USG% ...... 28.9----------------- 28.3
    ORTG ........108------------------ 109
    DRTG .......110------------------- 105
    OWS ...... 3.6-------------------- 3.5
    DWS ...... 2.1-------------------- 1.0

    So Demar is performing as good as Kyrie Irving (superstar, elite, voted-in all-star) on the offensive end, and obliterates him on the defensive end.

    And this….

    List of players with USG% > 28, & ORTG > 108

    http://bkref.com/tiny/HgWqI

    Kevin Durant
    Lebron James
    Kevin Love
    Blake Griffin
    Steph Curry
    Paul George
    Carmelo Anthony
    Lamarcus Aldridge
    Demar Derozan
    Kyrie Irving

    That’s crème de la crème de la crème right there. Demar is right there with Aldridge, George and Irving, actually. And consider that Demar’s USG% is actually closer to 30% since the Gay trade, while increasing his ORTG, and it’s even more impressive.

    So really, what more needs to be said. Demar is currently playing like a bonafide all-star. Period. And there are lot of improvements, beyond stats, such as: body language, clutchness, leadership – and accomplishing all of that as a first option.

    I, for one, was on the fence about Demar going into this season and I’m simply ecstatic to be proven wrong. I have absolutely no qualms admitting I was wrong, wrong, wrong about Demar. Whoop dee doo. LOL. Not sure why more people don’t adopt this mindset, and let go of their previous debating stance. It’s like the old saying about marriage … “ it’s better to be happy than right.” You just gotta take those unexpected pleasant surprises whenever you can get them and feel good about it, IMO.
    If you remove the restriction of ORtg at 108 you only get 15 players: http://bkref.com/tiny/MA0B1

    I'm really not trying to disparage DeRozan here. I just think stating the 'creme de la creme' is a bit misleading when it comes to Griffin, Love, Durant, LBJ, and Curry. They are all rocking an ORtg of at least 7 higher.

    But no doubt the company is impressive.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    a little bit of cherry picking here.

    at almost 30% USG, hes not producing nearly as many win shares as he should. and i think everyone knows that kyrie hasn't been exactly all that great this year so that comparison kind of falls flat.

    kyle lowry only gets about 20% USG, yet produces nearly twice as many win shares as demar. take that USG% filter down to 20% and now you have (http://bkref.com/tiny/y5KlS)

    1 Kevin Durant
    2 LeBron James
    3 Kevin Love
    4 Blake Griffin
    5 Stephen Curry
    6 Kyle Lowry (who by the way has an insane ORTG of 120 which is Lebron/Love level)
    7 Paul George
    8 Dirk Nowitzk
    9 Goran Dragic
    10 Chris Paul
    ...
    ...
    ...

    you have to go all the way down to #19 to see where demar is.


    even with 20% USG, kyle produced 8.1 win shares, compared to only 5.6 by demar who gets 10% more USG.
    Agree 100%. Lowry should be an all-star too. Everybody knows that. Raps have 2 legit all-stars. Deal with it folks. And that means enjoying it, even if all those years of failure, disappointment and rejection have made Rap fans so emotionally damaged that they've forgetten how to enjoy success. You'll get the hang of it. LOL.

    EDIT: Just clicked on that BB-REF link from iblastoff. Demar "WAY DOWN THERE at #19 in WS" is ahead of: Bosh, Wade, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Millsap, Wall, Cousins, Irving, Randolph, etc..., etc... You get the picture. LOL
    Last edited by golden; Mon Feb 17th, 2014 at 09:38 AM.

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