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View Poll Results: Should the Raptors trade DeRozan before the trade deadline?

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  • Yes

    22 55.00%
  • No

    18 45.00%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #4501
    Raptors Republic Superstar stooley's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Well actually even those were similar in some ways. Both of them upped their efficiency in the playoffs by getting to the FT Line more. Scoring and assists about the same, Melo rebounded better but he's also 6'8 240+, etc. WS/NetRTG better for Melo but likely because his team as a whole performed better in the playoffs.

    Melo:
    27-6-4
    56.4 TS%
    1.35 PPS

    DeRozan:
    24-4-4
    55 TS%
    1.43 PPS
    well would you look at that
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

  2. #4502
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    well would you look at that
    I did.

    It's pretty awesome.

  3. #4503
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    I've reiterated that DeRozan is not an ideal #1 option (an ideal #1 option wing can drop 25+ppg on mid-high 50s TS%, guys like Kobe, prime Wade, Melo, even Harden). But I think it's actually possible to win with him as the leading scorer (and highest paid player, which he likely will be in 2016).

    Generally the difference with a guy like DeRozan is that the rest of the team needs to be stacked. Near all-stars or extremely high level role players in the starting 5, and an elite bench. When you have a guy like Kobe you can get away with having a weaker supporting cast.

    EDIT: Tbh, even last year's Spurs were an example of this. Tony Parker, their leading scorer was statistically very similar to DeMar.

    Almost the same points per 36, identical oRTG, dRTG and WS/48. Parker was more efficient by TS% and a better passer but he's also a point guard. Points per shot almost exactly the same.
    Last edited by imanshumpert; Thu Jul 24th, 2014 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #4504
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Well actually even those were similar in some ways. Both of them upped their efficiency in the playoffs by getting to the FT Line more. Scoring and assists about the same, Melo rebounded better but he's also 6'8 240+, etc. WS/NetRTG better for Melo but likely because his team as a whole performed better in the playoffs.

    Melo:
    27-6-4
    56.4 TS%
    1.35 PPS

    DeRozan:
    24-4-4
    55 TS%
    1.43 PPS
    I like the bit where you emphasize the stats that make them most similar, and put in a one liner writing off the differences in the more important and impactful stats like overall performance (WS) and impact on the team (net rating). And that you didn't show how different - just noted that they were "better." Melo had a .201 WS/48 and a +8 net rating - that's elite. DD had a .136 WS/48 and a +2 rating. That's above average. Worlds apart. And I really like that you assume Melo's better overall stats were a result of his team's better play, rather than a cause of said better play.

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  6. #4505
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    I like the bit where you emphasize the stats that make them most similar, and put in a one liner writing off the differences in the more important and impactful stats like overall performance (WS) and impact on the team (net rating). And that you didn't show how different - just noted that they were "better." Melo had a .201 WS/48 and a +8 net rating - that's elite. DD had a .136 WS/48 and a +2 rating. That's above average. Worlds apart. And I really like that you assume Melo's better overall stats were a result of his team's better play, rather than a cause of said better play.
    I like your sarcastic tone.

    oRTG and dRTG (which are also related with win shares) ARE affected significantly by your team's performance.

    Yeah DeRozan's net RTG in the playoffs last year was +2, the Raptors was only +3.8
    Yeah Melo had a +8 net RTG in the playoffs in 2008-09, but the Nuggets net rating was +9.6

    I didn't just conveniently leave it out, team performance absolutely, MUST be considered here. Thinking otherwise is foolish and stupid to say the least.

  7. #4506
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    *repetitive headshakes*

    Is this really happening?

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  9. #4507
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    *repetitive headshakes*

    Is this really happening?
    Yeah that's what I'm thinking as well hahaha

  10. #4508
    Raptors Republic Superstar stooley's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    *repetitive headshakes*

    Is this really happening?
    I don't really understand where you guys are coming from to be honest.

    It seems like if you have a really, really good team around DD, but who is still your best player, you can be successful.

    That's literally the only point that was made, and it's really not that far fetched.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

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  12. #4509
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I don't really understand where you guys are coming from to be honest.

    It seems like if you have a really, really good team around DD, but who is still your best player, you can be successful.

    That's literally the only point that was made, and it's really not that far fetched.
    mcHAPPY likes criticizing other people's opinions, but if you do a quick forum search on his past posts you can see that his opinions/predictions are almost always wrong.

  13. #4510
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I don't really understand where you guys are coming from to be honest.

    It seems like if you have a really, really good team around DD, but who is still your best player, you can be successful.

    That's literally the only point that was made, and it's really not that far fetched.
    I don't know what McHappy's opinion on this is but I for one cannot see us being a contender ala OKC, SAS, MIA(with LBJ) with DeRozan being our best player, DD's ideal role is 2nd option. If we had someone like KD or another superstar player on his team DD's shooting % and his overall game would flourish because he is not the top gun.
    "We had to put the ball in Rudy’s hands. He had it going,” Casey said. “DeMar struggled. I think he was 2-for-15 in the first half. Rudy was the only one that really had something rolling with a rhythm. It was one of those nights. If it was DeMar rolling we would have milked him. But tonight it was Rudy and did a great job of carrying us, getting us into overtime

    Rudy shot 11-37......................

  14. #4511
    Raptors Republic Superstar KHD's Avatar
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    Did I just see a statistical comparison of Derozan to Tony Parker used as an argument point? God I hate the offseason.

  15. #4512
    Raptors Republic Superstar stooley's Avatar
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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    I don't know what McHappy's opinion on this is but I for one cannot see us being a contender ala OKC, SAS, MIA(with LBJ) with DeRozan being our best player, DD's ideal role is 2nd option. If we had someone like KD or another superstar player on his team DD's shooting % and his overall game would flourish because he is not the top gun.
    See, that's what I though, but in looking at Melo's performance that season, when the Nuggets made the WCF, and apparently including the playoffs to a certain extent, it is VERY similar to DD's.

    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    Did I just see a statistical comparison of Derozan to Tony Parker used as an argument point? God I hate the offseason.
    I think it was Melo?

    Which is actually a pretty good comp (as far as much better players go), since if you paint their games in broad strokes, they look very similar.

    Volume scorers who play subpar defense.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

  16. #4513
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    I like the bit where you emphasize the stats that make them most similar, and put in a one liner writing off the differences in the more important and impactful stats like overall performance (WS) and impact on the team (net rating). And that you didn't show how different - just noted that they were "better." Melo had a .201 WS/48 and a +8 net rating - that's elite. DD had a .136 WS/48 and a +2 rating. That's above average. Worlds apart. And I really like that you assume Melo's better overall stats were a result of his team's better play, rather than a cause of said better play.
    His forte is cherry picking stats to suit whatever point he is trying to make. I thought everyone knew that by now.

  17. #4514
    Raptors Republic Superstar stooley's Avatar
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    Quote FoxMachine wrote: View Post
    His forte is cherry picking stats to suit whatever point he is trying to make. I thought everyone knew that by now.
    I really think all of this criticism is based more on history than on what was actually presented here. He addressed both of those stats in his post, although he glossed over them slightly (but come on...)

    The net rating does seem very easy to explain away, since Melo was under his team's overall performance by almost the exact same amount as DD.

    I'll look into WS, to try and figure out what's going on there, because the stat is based on boxscores, so it should be fairly easily explainable and it may be that in this specific circumstance, it is highlighting something critical or misrepresenting worth.

    edit:

    So for Anthony, in the playoffs, at the age of 24, I see:

    a greater usg% by about 3%
    about double the steals per 100 possessions
    3.1 vs. 3.4 turnovers per 100 possessions (so again, slightly in Anthony's favour)
    a marginally better assist rate and a marginally better rebound rate
    a TS% of .564 which is slightly higher than DD's at .550, and this stat sums up Anthony's better 3p%, although that may have an effect of his teammates as well (being able to better stretch the floor)

    edit again:

    So I'm thinking that WS adjusts for league average, as well. So I'm thinking that the Nuggets performance while Anthony was on the court may have been further above league average than the Raptors' performance with DD on the court.

    So again, this may raise other questions, like, obviously the league has changed a lot since then, is an mid range player like DD still effective, but the box scores are nearly identical.
    Last edited by stooley; Thu Jul 24th, 2014 at 07:58 PM.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

  18. #4515
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    mcHAPPY likes criticizing other people's opinions, but if you do a quick forum search on his past posts you can see that his opinions/predictions are almost always wrong.
    Almost is the key word.

    Like a broken clock I'm right twice a day.

    Don't toss dirt now, friend. Remember I'm smrt.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  19. #4516
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I don't really understand where you guys are coming from to be honest.

    It seems like if you have a really, really good team around DD, but who is still your best player, you can be successful.

    That's literally the only point that was made, and it's really not that far fetched.
    The problem is the presentation.

    I don't think anyone will argue the point because the key is the really, really good team surrounding him.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  20. #4517
    Raptors Republic Superstar stooley's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    The problem is the presentation.

    I don't think anyone will argue the point because the key is the really, really good team surrounding him.
    Right, fair enough.

    Our team could be really good too though!
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

  21. #4518
    Raptors Republic Superstar OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    *repetitive headshakes*

    Is this really happening?
    I kicked the bees nest....sorry guys

    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    I don't know what McHappy's opinion on this is but I for one cannot see us being a contender ala OKC, SAS, MIA(with LBJ) with DeRozan being our best player, DD's ideal role is 2nd option. If we had someone like KD or another superstar player on his team DD's shooting % and his overall game would flourish because he is not the top gun.
    Here is a few questions:

    What do we know?

    DD has never been a really efficient player at any amount of usage. What makes his efficiency bearable right now is that his efficiency hasn't dropped off while playing at a very high usage, so he comes out better than most and by all account produces.

    But what happens when his usage drops?

    Well we know that his efficiency does not increase as his usage decreases. As a rule of thumb, the lower the usage a player uses, the more efficient he needs to be in order to be "good" compared to the league. Low usage, low efficiency players don't last in the NBA.

    Now, DD will not be a low usage guy, but say he is a moderate usage second fiddle, hovering around 20%. Now, he probably won't be more than the average efficient that he currently produces.

    So the real question is:

    Does a moderate usage, average efficiency player sound like a great offensive second fiddle?

  22. #4519
    Raptors Republic Superstar Mr.Z's Avatar
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    So much arguing over one little theory that was brought up.

    Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
    You come at the King, you best not miss.

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  24. #4520
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I kicked the bees nest....sorry guys



    Here is a few questions:

    What do we know?

    DD has never been a really efficient player at any amount of usage. What makes his efficiency bearable right now is that his efficiency hasn't dropped off while playing at a very high usage, so he comes out better than most and by all account produces.

    But what happens when his usage drops?

    Well we know that his efficiency does not increase as his usage decreases. As a rule of thumb, the lower the usage a player uses, the more efficient he needs to be in order to be "good" compared to the league. Low usage, low efficiency players don't last in the NBA.

    Now, DD will not be a low usage guy, but say he is a moderate usage second fiddle, hovering around 20%. Now, he probably won't be more than the average efficient that he currently produces.

    So the real question is:

    Does a moderate usage, average efficiency player sound like a great offensive second fiddle?
    Nah. The real question is: Does a Wookiee know his cliche robed number crunching, or basketball?

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