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  • Billy103 wrote: View Post
    But most people are wondering if you sign demar to the max how do take the next step?
    By moving some of our many other assets? Or by drafting, but that's riskier. But that's a conversation for another thread.

    Comment


    • Apollo wrote: View Post
      Pissing away assets by making decisions counter to market forces doesn't sound like successful management is more like it.

      The argument against him is:

      - "I don't like his game."
      - "We can replacement with what we have in house."
      - "We can't win with him."
      The argument against him is he isn't that good. Simply high usage, low efficiency, while being a bad defender and lacking shooting. The argument against him is that he's propped up by Lowry, which is shown in how bad the team is when Lowry's off the floor and DeMar's on.

      Apollo wrote: View Post
      Where this goes wrong is:

      - it doesn't matter if we like his game.
      - he can't be replaced in house, the guy doesn't exist. The guys don't exist to pull it off.
      - they overachieved this season when you look at darn near any estimate at the start of the season.
      - to lose him for nothing sets the team back because he has real market worth. He's young, had a phenomenal season especially in the ECF.
      - you don't build winners based on gut and feelings. You build winners based on maximizing value and no one can honestly say they're replacing DD with an equal or better asset value by letting him walk.
      -It doesn't matter if we like his game, I agree there.

      -We don't need to replace him. You don't need a 'DeMar DeRozan' to win in the NBA. Oklahoma City doesn't have one, Cleveland doesn't have one, Golden State doesn't have one. You need your usage to funnel elsewhere, but we have those guys in house, guys who can do more if asked(JV????). We also would be a better defensive team without him, which means we would need to score less.

      -They overachieved this season is a reason NOT to sign DeMar to the max. If you believe this season was a massive overreach, and we still didn't make it to the Finals, then you can't expect us to overachieve again next year, meaning this core has reached it's ceiling and it's time to change the gameplan.

      -He had an awful playoffs prior to the ECF, and we almost didn't make it there because of how bad he was.

      -You don't build winners based on overpaying for assets.
      twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

      Comment


      • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
        ...of the first round when he, personally, had a giant amount of pressure.

        what stat marks the impact of every shot effecting your chance to earn 100 million dollars? if basketball and sports are about the mental game as much as the physical game, and we all like to point and paint people as mental midgets then that has to be taken into account."
        now your defending his poor play by saying he had a lot of pressure on him??? he cant handle pressure good one. so hes a high volume shooter who shoots poorly, is not good under pressure (last three yrs of playoffs), is not clutch (if memory serves he is 3rd in clutch shots taken and 200th in clutch shot fg%) and cant defend. ya maybe your right if he deserves max everyone should.

        the miami series helped take him from an abysmal totally shit playoffs to a poor playoff performance you can twist all you want you know it and everyone knows it - demars overall playoff performance was poor.

        Comment


        • FYI, some real circular logic going on here.

          1. He didn't perform in the first round because of the immense pressure on him.

          2. His performance in the ECF matters more because those games matter more on the bigger stage.

          The question begging to be asked is, why is the pressure higher in the games that 'matter less on the smaller stage' then?
          twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

          Comment


          • Most of the arguments for signing DD to a big contract seem to revolve around 1) league perception, 2) who is going to replace him, and 3) market dictated value

            (1)

            Big difference between VC and Bosh leaving compared to us not wanting DD back. Lowry and JV also had great impacts in the US media, who realized rather quickly that those guys were the drivers of the team. If we don't offer a contract to DD, the league will forget about it in three months, a 5 year maximum deal is not a good way to avoid three months of mediaheat.

            (2)

            DD will be replaced by JV, and his production should be supplanted by more efficient three point shooting and defense. We don't need to have a direct replacement in a vacuum, that's very basic thinking (seriously, I'm being offensive and you should be offended).

            (3)

            If some other team wants to give DD a max contract, is no argument as to whether we should give him a max. DD's contract should be based solely on what he is able to produce.

            Additionally:

            Loyalty is worth nothing. Repping the team is worth nothing. Team winning 56 games based on Lowry, CoJo, Patterson, and JV being beasts all year, is worth nothing to maxing DD. These are not business/GM/basketball arguments. You want to be a great team in the NBA? You make sound, defendable basketball on-court decisions. And maxing DD based on his production isn't one of those kind of decisions.

            Comment


            • Everything Demar Derozan

              Apollo wrote: View Post
              Pissing away assets by making decisions counter to market forces doesn't sound like successful management is more like it.

              The argument against him is:

              - "I don't like his game."
              - "We can replacement with what we have in house."
              - "We can't win with him."

              Where this goes wrong is:

              - it doesn't matter if we like his game.
              - he can't be replaced in house, the guy doesn't exist. The guys don't exist to pull it off.
              - they overachieved this season when you look at darn near any estimate at the start of the season.
              - to lose him for nothing sets the team back because he has real market worth. He's young, had a phenomenal season especially in the ECF.
              - you don't build winners based on gut and feelings. You build winners based on maximizing value and no one can honestly say they're replacing DD with an equal or better asset value by letting him walk.
              I'm not sure I've seen anyone using the reasons you provided. (People have suggested filling his spot with Powell and/or Ross, but that isn't the reason for letting Demar walk, it's the action plan resulting from).

              The bold is actually one of the reasons not to sign him; he'd be a terrible value for money/cap space player. The space and flexibility can allow you to make the moves that make you better.

              I would much rather sign no one and have $15M in cap space to go trade shopping with than max out a player who can't play defence and doesn't show up for the majority of the playoffs. If we want to trade for a PF, having the cap space to absorb a large deal would make things easier and wouldn't result in gutting the bench to make salaries work.

              If we resign Demar and bring back Casey next year, then we have an expiring Lowry and better hope we don't regress, otherwise next year is a similar situation (doubling down on the existing core) but with a significantly better albeit older player.
              Last edited by Axel; Sun May 29, 2016, 01:47 PM.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                Most of the arguments for signing DD to a big contract seem to revolve around 1) league perception, 2) who is going to replace him, and 3) market dictated value

                (1)

                Big difference between VC and Bosh leaving compared to us not wanting DD back. Lowry and JV also had great impacts in the US media, who realized rather quickly that those guys were the drivers of the team. If we don't offer a contract to DD, the league will forget about it in three months, a 5 year maximum deal is not a good way to avoid three months of mediaheat.

                (2)

                DD will be replaced by JV, and his production should be supplanted by more efficient three point shooting and defense. We don't need to have a direct replacement in a vacuum, that's very basic thinking (seriously, I'm being offensive and you should be offended).

                (3)

                If some other team wants to give DD a max contract, is no argument as to whether we should give him a max. DD's contract should be based solely on what he is able to produce.

                Additionally:

                Loyalty is worth nothing. Repping the team is worth nothing. Team winning 56 games based on Lowry, CoJo, Patterson, and JV being beasts all year, is worth nothing to maxing DD. These are not business/GM/basketball arguments. You want to be a great team in the NBA? You make sound, defendable basketball on-court decisions. And maxing DD based on his production isn't one of those kind of decisions.
                Mostly agree, just to add on...

                With league perception, nobody will care if the Raps don't resign him and then actually win games, which I believe would happen.
                With his replacement, in a vacuum any replacement MU gets will be a better defender and three point shooter, even if thats just Powell. This will contribute to winning and help a more JV-centric offense.

                Demar has helped grow the team in a lot of ways, but when it gets down to it, for what he provides, he is not a max player.

                Comment


                • Barolt wrote: View Post
                  The argument against him is he isn't that good. Simply high usage, low efficiency, while being a bad defender and lacking shooting. The argument against him is that he's propped up by Lowry, which is shown in how bad the team is when Lowry's off the floor and DeMar's on.



                  -It doesn't matter if we like his game, I agree there.

                  -We don't need to replace him. You don't need a 'DeMar DeRozan' to win in the NBA. Oklahoma City doesn't have one, Cleveland doesn't have one, Golden State doesn't have one. You need your usage to funnel elsewhere, but we have those guys in house, guys who can do more if asked(JV????). We also would be a better defensive team without him, which means we would need to score less.

                  -They overachieved this season is a reason NOT to sign DeMar to the max. If you believe this season was a massive overreach, and we still didn't make it to the Finals, then you can't expect us to overachieve again next year, meaning this core has reached it's ceiling and it's time to change the gameplan.

                  -He had an awful playoffs prior to the ECF, and we almost didn't make it there because of how bad he was.

                  -You don't build winners based on overpaying for assets.
                  I think people close to the organization have the belief that there has been an over achievement this year and predict a step back may happen to take a step ahead.

                  Comment


                  • I'd also like to draw everyone's attention to the trade value Ujiri got from dealing a guy who wanted to leave and let it be known in Carmelo Anthony. Logically you'd think it would have killed any leverage in a deal but no, he landed a huge bounty.

                    Then there was Bargnani who clearly was dead weight. That deal now has netted this team the 9th overall selection in the upcoming June draft.

                    He can't work this kind of magic with DD or anyone else if he just let's them walk. He can't maximize asset value if he pisses those assets away because they don't fit some basketball ideology that's not going to win them a ring anytime in the next two or three years. Just like anything else in life, you make the most of what you have to achieve the best results. Going against the grain leads to failure.

                    Comment


                    • I think we have to remember as much as the playoffs are a great test-of-strength, it's pretty much gravy when evaluating value. Bradley Beal is likely to get the max and he played 55 games this season. DeMar played 98.

                      Comment


                      • If we were under the cap, re-signing DeMar would have a major opportunity cost in terms of alternative players that could be signed. Being over the cap, that opportunity cost shrinks to little more than dollars and cents.

                        If we wanted to (and had roster space), we could sign DeMar to the max, give JJ a raise, sign Nando for 4.5 mill or whatever league average is, sign a player for the full MLE, and still be able to re-up Kyle down the road. You just have to be prepared to actually spend money on the team.

                        If you let DeMar walk, you might be able to sign Biz, but you'd also probably have to waive the rights to Nando and JJ (not that's too much of a sticking point), maybe have to clear a bit more salary (Ross?), and would only have the room MLE.

                        Bottomline, people are more scared of salary than they should be. We aren't going to be an over-the-cap team with bare cupboards if we sign DeMar, we're going to be fully locked and loaded with our depth on rookie/value contracts.
                        Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Sun May 29, 2016, 02:05 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Overall, how do the Toronto Raptors keep improving as a basketball team?

                          (1) What made us competitive in the playoffs?

                          - Rebounding
                          - Interior defense
                          - JV individual performance
                          - Biyombo
                          - Lowry's impact on the court
                          - CoJo's dominance over backup point guards

                          (2) What hurt us in the playoffs?

                          - Inefficient guard play
                          - Inconsistent three point shooting
                          - Lack of generating open three point shots
                          - Under utilization of JV
                          - ISO basketball reliance
                          - Lack of a second power forward
                          - Carroll playing at 50%
                          - Inconsistent perimeter defense

                          (3) Holistically, what team skills do we need to improve on for us to become a better playoff team?

                          - We need to be better with our perimeter defense
                          - We need more shooters, specifically at the wings
                          - Our offense is stagnant and ISO heavy and needs to improve

                          I think those three bullets do a good job of directing what we should be doing in the offseason to become a better team. Does anyone have any issues with the above?




                          Does DD's individual skill set improve any of those areas? No.

                          Actually, you can easily argue that he is the problem for all of those area in which we need to improve as a team.




                          Therefor, resigning DD to any contract, is not good for the team, because he does not bring any skills to the table which we need to improve on as a team.



                          This is perhaps oversimplified, but I wanted to take a step back to bring perspective into the argument.

                          Does anyone have any issue with any part of this argument? Is there any holes or missing connectors between the logic (I ask because I know I'm bad at connecting information)?

                          Comment


                          • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                            If we were under the cap, re-signing DeMar would have a major opportunity cost in terms of alternative players that could be signed. Being over the cap, that opportunity cost shrinks to little more than dollars and cents.
                            But we aren't talking about a one-year contract. It doesn't just affect this summer's cap.
                            twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

                            Comment


                            • A passionate discussion indeed.

                              I'm convinced that Demar will be re-signed (not even sure it will be at the max, knowing Masai).

                              A few people will be upset (even offended - lol), but who cares.

                              Demar will be back. Casey will be back. Book it!


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                              Comment


                              • Barolt wrote: View Post
                                But we aren't talking about a one-year contract. It doesn't just affect this summer's cap.
                                Sure, but I don't think Masai is, or should be, eyeing up cap space anytime soon.

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