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**rocwell** · Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:04 PM

Butler is better defender than DeRozan. No question here. All he needs to do is save some more energy for both ends of the floor. I'm sure Butler will find a right balance and he'll get few more all-defensive team nominations in his career.. can't say same about DD.

**DanH** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:05 AM

Thing about DRPM is it does NOT measure who is the better defender. It measures who helps their team the most on defence. Which can be (but isn't always) correlated to who is the better defender. DeRozan, through long service under Casey, has developed a pretty keen sense of what the correct rotation is in this system - he reads rotations and help better than anyone on the team besides Amir, and Amir can't make those rotations quickly enough anymore. If you watch him closely - and I've done it for full games many times - he is always sagging into the paint to "tag" or bump the first helper's man (usually Jonas' guy as JV helps at the rim). Quite often to a fault, leaving his guy too long, but that's the system - help and scramble back.

In any case, DD follows the system well, so for those stretches where everybody has their legs and the communication is working and guys are on a string and the other team starts missing, and panicking, and turning it over - for those stretches, DD is often on the court. Hence his half decent impact stats.

Now, in spite of his advanced knowledge of the rotation system, he's still below average defensively. And that's where his man D comes in - just miserable, another thing you pick up if watching him for a whole game. Guys beat him on cuts, both back door and directly into the paint, because he pays more attention to his help duties than to his man (needs to improve his head-on-a-swivel attentiveness). He gets blown by in isolation sometimes, though he's not brutal there. Where he gets obliterated is on screens - just dies as soon as he hits it, no fighting through it at all, and that leads to his guy getting into the paint for easier than usual buckets.

All together, maybe he does have a better positive impact defensively than those other guards - but remember, for all that they try, they really can't separate RPM data from systems. DeRozan is very valuable to Casey's system. It was made clear when Ross and GV had to take more of his minutes - just a huge drop off, even with Ross probably having better defensive tools, he's not as comfortable in the system (frankly, he's the guy who always seems to have no idea what to do if screened, not even getting caught on them so much as not knowing where he is supposed to funnel/tail his man). It's the reason why in spite of the miserly individual defensive statistics DD puts up he posts one of the best on-court defensive ratings on the team.

**mcHAPPY** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:08 AM

DanH wrote: View Post

Thing about DRPM is it does NOT measure who is the better defender. It measures who helps their team the most on defence. Which can be (but isn't always) correlated to who is the better defender. DeRozan, through long service under Casey, has developed a pretty keen sense of what the correct rotation is in this system - he reads rotations and help better than anyone on the team besides Amir, and Amir can't make those rotations quickly enough anymore. If you watch him closely - and I've done it for full games many times - he is always sagging into the paint to "tag" or bump the first helper's man (usually Jonas' guy as JV helps at the rim). Quite often to a fault, leaving his guy too long, but that's the system - help and scramble back.

In any case, DD follows the system well, so for those stretches where everybody has their legs and the communication is working and guys are on a string and the other team starts missing, and panicking, and turning it over - for those stretches, DD is often on the court. Hence his half decent impact stats.

Now, in spite of his advanced knowledge of the rotation system, he's still below average defensively. And that's where his man D comes in - just miserable, another thing you pick up if watching him for a whole game. Guys beat him on cuts, both back door and directly into the paint, because he pays more attention to his help duties than to his man (needs to improve his head-on-a-swivel attentiveness). He gets blown by in isolation sometimes, though he's not brutal there. Where he gets obliterated is on screens - just dies as soon as he hits it, no fighting through it at all, and that leads to his guy getting into the paint for easier than usual buckets.

All together, maybe he does have a better positive impact defensively than those other guards - but remember, for all that they try, they really can't separate RPM data from systems. DeRozan is very valuable to Casey's system. It was made clear when Ross and GV had to take more of his minutes - just a huge drop off, even with Ross probably having better defensive tools, he's not as comfortable in the system (frankly, he's the guy who always seems to have no idea what to do if screened, not even getting caught on them so much as not knowing where he is supposed to funnel/tail his man). It's the reason why in spite of the miserly individual defensive statistics DD puts up he posts one of the best on-court defensive ratings on the team.

That's a nice post dan.

**007** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:15 AM

We can always count on Dan to explain things.

**Axel** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 08:48 AM

mcHAPPY wrote: View Post

http://bkref.com/tiny/qanpd

I tried to get DeRozan on a chart.

Thought it might have been to qualified for minutes played I had put in on account of his injury.
Thought it might have been due to positions so I checked G, then G with G-F, then G G-F and F-G.

Then I realized none of the charts had players who were negative.

So I just put that up as a means of reference. Remember DeRozan is -1.3.

mcHAPPY wrote: View Post

Dammit... How do you get charts from b-r on to here again? Been a while since I've done it.

Guessing this is the chart you wanted to post (Share - bbcode "Table"). Had to change your filter since Demar doesn't quality for leaderboards due to injury. Switched it to MPG of at least 20, and allowed negative stats.

                                                                               

                              Adva                                             

Rk                     Player  PER STL% BLK% DRtg DWS   WS WS/48 DBPM  BPM VORP

1                  Tony Allen 14.9  4.2  1.5   98 3.1  4.1  .124  3.7  3.5  2.2

2           Russell Westbrook 29.5  3.2  0.5  101 2.9  9.1  .233  2.6 11.6  6.4

3       Giannis Antetokounmpo 15.4  1.7  3.0  101 3.5  5.5  .121  2.5  0.9  1.6

4                 Danny Green 16.5  2.3  2.9  101 3.3  6.5  .154  2.1  4.7  3.4

5              Andre Iguodala 12.7  2.2  0.9  102 2.6  4.7  .127  1.7  2.0  1.8

6              Elijah Millsap  6.6  3.0  1.5  103 1.0  0.1  .004  1.6 -2.2  0.0

7                Eric Bledsoe 19.3  2.5  1.4  105 2.7  6.9  .137  1.2  3.4  3.2

8                James Harden 26.6  2.6  1.7  102 3.7 13.9  .263  1.2  8.4  6.7

9              K.J. McDaniels 10.5  1.7  4.1  105 1.5  0.6  .021  1.2 -2.6 -0.2

10                Rajon Rondo 13.2  2.4  0.3  104 2.1  1.1  .031  1.2 -0.6  0.6

11                  John Wall 20.2  2.5  1.3  102 3.6  7.3  .138  1.1  3.7  3.6

12                Evan Turner 12.4  1.8  0.6  104 2.2  1.9  .047  1.0 -1.3  0.3

13               LeBron James 26.2  2.3  1.5  105 2.4  9.1  .198  0.9  7.2  5.2

14               Marcus Smart 11.1  2.6  0.7  105 1.6  2.2  .074  0.8  0.9  1.0

15           Lance Stephenson  9.1  1.2  0.4  104 1.8 -0.5 -.017  0.8 -2.9 -0.3

16    Michael Carter-Williams 13.4  2.3  1.2  104 2.3  0.0  .001  0.7 -1.2  0.4

17              Stephen Curry 27.6  3.2  0.5  100 3.8 13.3  .285  0.6  9.7  6.6

18              Elfrid Payton 13.3  2.8  0.5  107 1.7  1.4  .031  0.5 -1.2  0.4

19           Patrick Beverley 11.4  1.7  1.0  105 1.8  3.5  .098  0.4  0.9  1.3

20                 Joe Ingles  9.4  2.3  0.5  106 1.3  1.6  .056  0.3 -0.8  0.4

21              Iman Shumpert 11.5  2.7  0.9  107 1.1  1.2  .045  0.3 -0.4  0.5

22             Damian Lillard 21.0  1.8  0.5  104 3.0  9.4  .182  0.2  5.4  4.6

23               Courtney Lee 11.9  1.6  0.4  106 2.0  4.5  .107  0.1  0.7  1.4

24            Wesley Matthews 16.1  1.9  0.4  104 2.3  6.3  .150  0.1  3.9  3.0

25                 Chris Paul 25.1  2.7  0.4  105 2.6 12.8  .246  0.1  6.9  5.6

26               Kemba Walker 18.5  2.1  1.3  103 2.2  4.2  .120  0.1  3.0  2.1

27               Bradley Beal 13.8  1.8  0.6  105 1.9  3.2  .087  0.0  0.6  1.2

28               Tyreke Evans 16.6  1.8  1.0  108 1.7  3.0  .063 -0.1  1.0  1.7

29                C.J. Watson 14.7  1.9  0.5  104 1.5  3.3  .122 -0.1  1.0  1.0

30           Gerald Henderson 13.3  1.1  0.8  106 1.9  3.2  .081 -0.2 -1.2  0.4

31                George Hill 21.1  1.8  0.9  104 1.1  3.3  .189 -0.2  4.8  1.4

32             Mario Chalmers 12.2  2.8  0.4  107 1.8  2.7  .063 -0.3 -0.7  0.7

33              Toney Douglas 17.0  3.2  2.3  105 0.1  0.1  .101 -0.3 -0.1  0.0

34              Manu Ginobili 16.5  2.0  0.9  103 1.7  3.0  .107 -0.3  1.3  1.1

35                Ricky Rubio 15.2  2.8  0.1  109 0.4  0.6  .039 -0.3 -0.2  0.3

36             Rodney Stuckey 16.3  1.6  0.4  105 1.8  3.8  .114 -0.3  0.3  1.0

37             Jerryd Bayless 12.0  1.8  0.6  104 1.7  2.4  .080 -0.4 -2.2 -0.1

38              Alan Anderson 10.2  1.7  0.3  109 0.9  2.2  .067 -0.5 -0.7  0.5

39              Mike Dunleavy 11.1  0.9  0.9  107 1.2  3.2  .099 -0.5  0.1  0.8

40                Jason Terry 11.3  2.2  0.9  106 1.4  2.8  .101 -0.5 -0.5  0.5

41                Mike Conley 19.1  2.1  0.4  104 2.4  6.4  .155 -0.6  2.8  2.4

42               Kirk Hinrich  6.8  1.5  0.7  108 1.1  0.8  .026 -0.6 -2.8 -0.3

43               Jrue Holiday 18.6  2.5  1.4  107 1.0  3.1  .119 -0.6  2.3  1.4

44                 Kyle Lowry 19.5  2.3  0.4  107 1.8  6.8  .145 -0.6  3.8  3.3

45             Shabazz Napier  9.4  2.1  0.3  108 0.8  0.5  .024 -0.6 -2.6 -0.1

46             Victor Oladipo 16.5  2.4  0.5  108 1.5  3.2  .071 -0.6  0.2  1.2

47                Monta Ellis 16.9  2.9  0.8  106 2.2  3.7  .074 -0.7  0.1  1.3

48             Brandon Knight 17.5  2.3  0.4  104 2.4  4.7  .111 -0.7  1.3  1.7

49               Shane Larkin 10.9  2.7  0.5  110 0.7  1.4  .043 -0.7 -2.2 -0.1

50   Kentavious Caldwell-Pope 11.0  1.8  0.6  108 1.5  2.4  .052 -0.8 -1.1  0.5

51               Devin Harris 15.5  2.3  0.7  107 1.3  4.2  .135 -0.8  1.6  1.4

52                Joe Johnson 14.0  1.1  0.5  110 1.2  3.1  .063 -0.8 -0.1  1.1

53               Ronnie Price 10.2  3.5  0.3  109 0.6  0.8  .041 -0.8 -1.7  0.1

54                Jeff Teague 20.8  2.9  1.2  104 2.4  7.0  .169 -0.8  1.7  1.9

55              Klay Thompson 20.5  1.7  1.9  103 2.8  7.4  .170 -0.8  2.6  2.4

56               Jarrett Jack 14.4  1.7  0.5  109 1.2  2.1  .052 -0.9 -1.4  0.3

57               Donald Sloan 13.8  1.1  0.0  106 1.0  1.9  .090 -0.9 -0.9  0.3

58             Reggie Jackson 15.7  1.4  0.3  107 1.6  3.6  .092 -1.0 -0.1  0.9

59                 J.R. Smith 13.9  2.2  0.8  108 1.2  3.1  .082 -1.0  0.6  1.2

60                 Tony Snell 10.1  1.3  0.5  107 1.0  2.0  .079 -1.0 -1.6  0.1

61                Dwyane Wade 22.4  2.1  0.9  108 1.2  3.5  .104 -1.0  2.1  1.7

62              Avery Bradley 11.5  1.7  0.5  107 1.7  2.0  .046 -1.1 -1.8  0.1

63                Kobe Bryant 17.7  2.0  0.5  109 0.7  0.3  .013 -1.1  0.6  0.8

64                 Jeremy Lin 16.0  2.4  1.4  109 1.0  2.8  .079 -1.1 -0.3  0.7

65                 Alec Burks 13.1  1.0  0.4  109 0.5  1.6  .086 -1.2 -1.6  0.1

66            Darren Collison 17.6  2.2  0.7  110 0.8  3.9  .118 -1.2  1.8  1.5

67          Langston Galloway 12.2  1.8  0.7  111 0.4  0.9  .041 -1.2 -1.2  0.2

68                 C.J. Miles 12.4  1.8  1.1  104 1.8  2.0  .065 -1.2 -1.2  0.3

69           Quincy Pondexter  9.4  0.5  1.0  110 0.7  2.2  .072 -1.2 -1.1  0.3

70            Marco Belinelli 12.9  1.2  0.2  107 1.0  2.5  .103 -1.3 -0.6  0.4

71              DeMar DeRozan 16.6  1.9  0.3  108 1.1  2.8  .081 -1.3 -2.1  0.0

72               Goran Dragic 17.7  1.6  0.3  109 1.3  6.1  .132 -1.3  1.4  1.8

73                 Dante Exum  6.5  1.3  0.6  110 0.8  0.3  .010 -1.3 -3.3 -0.5

74               Ben McLemore  9.8  1.3  0.6  112 0.6  1.8  .039 -1.3 -1.1  0.5

75           Jason Richardson 11.8  1.8  0.5  106 0.3  0.3  .052 -1.3 -2.4  0.0

76              Arron Afflalo 10.9  0.8  0.2  111 0.9  2.3  .051 -1.4 -1.8  0.1

77                Norris Cole 10.1  1.7  0.5  109 0.9  0.9  .027 -1.4 -3.3 -0.5

78                  O.J. Mayo 13.2  1.6  0.9  105 1.5  2.1  .071 -1.4 -1.6  0.2

79                Jodie Meeks 14.1  2.2  0.3  108 0.8  2.5  .101 -1.4 -1.0  0.3

80              Austin Rivers  9.6  1.6  0.7  109 0.7  0.9  .030 -1.4 -3.4 -0.5

81               Dion Waiters 10.5  2.2  0.8  107 1.5  0.8  .021 -1.4 -3.9 -0.8

82             Deron Williams 15.3  1.7  0.7  109 1.0  2.7  .076 -1.4 -0.4  0.7

83               Kyrie Irving 21.6  2.0  0.5  109 1.6  9.5  .186 -1.6  3.2  3.2

84              Jameer Nelson 11.8  1.7  0.2  109 0.8  1.3  .050 -1.6 -1.3  0.2

85             Andrew Wiggins 13.0  1.5  1.3  113 0.2  1.5  .029 -1.6 -2.4 -0.3

86             Anthony Morrow 14.3  1.5  0.5  108 1.1  4.5  .147 -1.7  0.4  0.9

87              Terrence Ross 11.2  1.3  0.9  110 0.9  2.0  .055 -1.7 -1.6  0.2

88                Tony Wroten 14.9  2.7  0.7  106 0.9  0.3  .015 -1.7 -1.4  0.1

89           Bojan Bogdanovic 10.9  0.9  0.4  111 0.5  1.6  .052 -1.8 -2.2 -0.1

90                Eric Gordon 12.8  1.4  0.6  111 0.6  2.3  .068 -1.8 -0.3  0.7

91        Matthew Dellavedova  7.8  0.9  0.1  111 0.4  1.4  .058 -1.9 -2.6 -0.2

92                  Ty Lawson 18.9  1.8  0.2  110 1.1  6.7  .136 -1.9  1.3  1.9

**Jangles** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 08:51 AM

that chart is only slightly confusing to read

**mcHAPPY** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 08:54 AM

Thanks Axel

**Axel** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 08:54 AM

Jangles wrote: View Post

that chart is only slightly confusing to read

haha, yeah, took a few edits but I think we're good now.

**Jangles** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 08:58 AM

haha looks very good now

**golden** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:40 AM

Westbrook da real MVP.

Thanks, Ax.

**Axel** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 09:56 AM

golden wrote: View Post

Westbrook da real MVP.

Thanks, Ax.

Certainly hard to argue with that. Personally, Top 3 for MVP is Westbrook, Curry, Harden.

**mcHAPPY** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:00 AM

Hey hey hey!

Don't sidetrack the DeHatin thread.

**golden** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:12 AM

mcHAPPY wrote: View Post

Hey hey hey!

Don't sidetrack the DeHatin thread.

DeRision would be the appropriate term. lol.

"...the feeling that people express when they criticize and laugh at someone or something in an insulting way."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/derision

**Axel** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:14 AM

mcHAPPY wrote: View Post

Hey hey hey!

Don't sidetrack the DeHatin thread.

I did consider putting a footnote in my post of where DD would rank on the MVP list....but my brain shutdown at the math.

**mcHAPPY** · Tue Mar 24, 2015, 10:29 AM

golden wrote: View Post

DeRision would be the appropriate term. lol.

"...the feeling that people express when they criticize and laugh at someone or something in an insulting way."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/derision

But DeHaters gonna hate.

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