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  • phez wrote: View Post
    is this a joke post?
    I took it to mean that work ethic is meaningless without legit skill. I have a great work ethic and would work twice as hard as any Raptor if given the chance to play sports as my career, making $9.5M... but even I wouldn't want me on the team! lol I think TRex's frustration is the same frustration I feel when people say "but DeRozan loves Toronto" - who cares? He's getting paid to do a job and all I care about as a fan is his ability to do his job consistently well.

    Work ethic is important, vital even, but is not enough on its own. At this point in his career, DeRozan's skills are far below expectations, especially for a starter who's going to be paid $9.5M next season and gets the hype that he does. So he's a gym rat. So he claims to love Toronto. He's still an overpaid, one-dimensional inefficient scorer who disappears completely for games at at time. He's a horrendous 3pt shooter, can't dribble-penetrate effectively and is a below average defender. His work ethic and love for Toronto is the only thing shielding him from the same "hate" that has been directed at Bargnani for years. At the end of the day, he's just not a great player.

    Comment


    • In case it isn't obvious, the reason for criticizing DeRozan despite his great work ethic is his salary. Now I'm sure someone will say now wait a minute, that's Colangelo's fault! Sure, but at the end of the day DeRozan has to earn that contract somehow and you can't just ignore it.

      I truly admire DeRozan's desire to get better. Imagine if Bargnani had that level of commitment! But when you look at how much he is going to make, no matter how much he improves his game, he is not going to turn into a $9.5M player next season. He's just not there yet and it's not going to happen overnight.

      Ideally if Colangelo had given him what he was actually worth, for example ($6M, $8M, $9M, $10M), then you wouldn't hear so many complaints about his game until maybe the 3rd year and that would depend on how much he's improved by then. Here's all the starting shooting guards in the NBA ranked by 2013-2014 pay.. I've included some bench players where they are getting more minutes than the starter. No matter how hard he works and how great of an attitude he has, you can't sit there and tell me you think DeMar DeRozan is a top 10 SG:

      Kobe Bryant ($30.4M)
      Joe Johnson ($21.5M)
      Dwyane Wade ($18.6M)
      Andre Iguodala ($16.2M)
      Eric Gordon ($14.2M)
      Danny Granger ($14.0M)
      James Harden ($13.7M)
      Ben Gordon ($13.2M)
      Monta Ellis ($11.0M)
      DeMar DeRozan ($9.5M)
      Rodney Stuckey ($8.5M)
      Marcus Thornton ($8.0M)
      George Hill ($8.0M)
      Aaron Afflalo ($7.8M)
      John Salmons ($7.6M)
      Wesley Matthews ($6.9M)
      Jamal Crawford ($5.3M)
      Courtney Lee ($5.2M)
      Luke Ridnour ($4.3M)
      Bradley Beal ($4.3M)
      Jared Dudley ($4.3M)
      OJ Mayo ($4.2M)
      Thabo Sefolosha ($3.9M)
      Dion Waiters ($3.9M)
      Danny Green ($3.7M)
      JR Smith ($2.9M)
      Brandon Knight ($2.8M)
      Atlanta SG, aka revolving door (~$2.5M)
      Klay Thompson ($2.3M)
      Tony Allen (no contract)
      Randy Foye (no contract)
      Nick Young (no contract)
      Gerald Henderson (no contract)
      Marco Belinelli (no contract)
      Tyreke Evans (no contract)
      Last edited by ebrian; Wed Mar 6, 2013, 01:32 PM. Reason: missed klay thompson
      your pal,
      ebrian

      Comment


      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
        If the Raptors had more movement in their offense I don't think Gay and DeRozan are redundant.... ideal? No. But not redundant.

        Getting the ball moving shifting the defense and creates openings.

        Right now slashers have a hard time slashing because the offense doesn't allow lanes to open.

        The ISO plays end up being forced shots because the D can pack the key.

        It is not that simple but it is part of the problem.

        I hate offense that is JUMP SHOT. JUMP SHOT. JUMP SHOT. JUMP SHOT. Great when they fall but when they don't welcome to 5-8 minute field goal scoring droughts.
        "Getting the ball moving shifting the defense and creates openings" that leads to a jump shot is perfectly fine, as long as this jump shot is uncontested and taken by a plyer, who is capable of hitting it more often than not...

        Contensted Jump Shot after contested Jump Shop withiout any ball movement is what drives me nuts. I thin we are on the same page here... just felt like clarifying.

        As for DD's contract, yeah... it does put the player at a position when he needs to prove every night he's worth it. And to do that Demar needs to accomplish two things ppl have pointed out here: a. become consistent b. improve. Time will tell. I said in the beginning of the season this contract extension is crazy, then I saw a stretch of games and changed my mind to "maybe". Very curious to see what DD brings next season. I do not thing anybody's trading him/for him in the next few months anyways...

        Comment


        • Well lets put it this way Bargnani got that extension just because DeRozan is earning it and working hard to earn it, In 4 years DeRozan is much more important to the team and has provided more to Toronto than Bargnani ever has in 7.

          Comment


          • Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
            Well lets put it this way Bargnani got that extension just because DeRozan is earning it and working hard to earn it, In 4 years DeRozan is much more important to the team and has provided more to Toronto than Bargnani ever has in 7.
            I actually see a lot of similarities between Bargnani & DeRozan, in terms of the unfair expectations heaped on them thanks to management/coaching claims, limited improvements that have never been sustained for long stretches and being incredibly inefficient at the single dimension (scoring) they're supposed to excel at. And they're both overpaid relative to their true production.

            I also don't think either Bargnani or DeRozan are/were as important to the team's long-term success as management would make it seem to be. Fans buy into the hype churned out by the franchise's marketing engine, which is then lapped up by the media and spewed out as fact or truth. Both are role players who aren't good enough to be anything more than the team's #3/#4 scoring option. Given the fact that Gay is the team's cornerstone for at least the next few seasons, the team can't afford to have any more inefficient volume scorers on the roster (let alone starting), especially when their defense and peripherals are all below average (and don't forget their significant salary hits).

            Comment


            • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              I took it to mean that work ethic is meaningless without legit skill. I have a great work ethic and would work twice as hard as any Raptor if given the chance to play sports as my career, making $9.5M... but even I wouldn't want me on the team! lol I think TRex's frustration is the same frustration I feel when people say "but DeRozan loves Toronto" - who cares? He's getting paid to do a job and all I care about as a fan is his ability to do his job consistently well.

              Work ethic is important, vital even, but is not enough on its own. At this point in his career, DeRozan's skills are far below expectations, especially for a starter who's going to be paid $9.5M next season and gets the hype that he does. So he's a gym rat. So he claims to love Toronto. He's still an overpaid, one-dimensional inefficient scorer who disappears completely for games at at time. He's a horrendous 3pt shooter, can't dribble-penetrate effectively and is a below average defender. His work ethic and love for Toronto is the only thing shielding him from the same "hate" that has been directed at Bargnani for years. At the end of the day, he's just not a great player.
              I usually ignore posters when they make ridiculous claims....

              AND always seems like its the same people hating on demar everytime. I can list them....maybe others can add a name or two if i forget others.

              T-REX, Nilanka, CalgaryRapsFan....the usual suspects. "One-dimensional, inefficient, can't dribble, below average, overpaid".....LMAO. A weird bunch of haters you guys are!!

              Demar makes 3.34 million this year! I would say that he's putting up good numbers compared to others in his pay range don't you think???.....Overpaid? Let's say NOT YET! I can come up with a few names on THIS team who are OVERPAID BUT I think you guys are all pretty knowledgeable when it comes to this team

              Do you guys remember Demar when he just came into the league??? Are you honestly going to continue writing posts whine'n about him not being a great player??? Sorry to hear that your expectations were so high, it was clearly unrealistic. Demar is in his 4th year and is a VERY GOOD player for us! Rudy (in his own words) said Demar is the best SG he's EVER played with. I think I would take his word over you incredibly consistent whiners.

              I just hope you temper your expectations of TRoss because you WILL be dissappointed!

              Demar 2012/13 stats (23 years old in his 4th year)- 17.7 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.6 apg (one-dimensional??? - GTFOH)

              Demar 2011/12 stats (22 years old in his 3rd year) - 16.7 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 2.0 apg

              Demar 2010/11 stats (21 years old in his 2nd year) - 17.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 1.8 apg

              Demar has Career highs in points, rebounds, free throw %, free throw attempts, steals and assists this year and still IMPROVING.....I repeat one dimensional?? LOL hahaha....hilarious

              http://www.nba.com/playerfile/demar_derozan/

              Comment


              • special1 wrote: View Post
                I usually ignore posters when they make ridiculous claims....

                AND always seems like its the same people hating on demar everytime. I can list them....maybe others can add a name or two if i forget others.

                T-REX, Nilanka, CalgaryRapsFan....the usual suspects. "One-dimensional, inefficient, can't dribble, below average, overpaid".....LMAO. A weird bunch of haters you guys are!!

                Demar makes 3.34 million this year! I would say that he's putting up good numbers compared to others in his pay range don't you think???.....Overpaid? Let's say NOT YET! I can come up with a few names on THIS team who are OVERPAID BUT I think you guys are all pretty knowledgeable when it comes to this team

                Do you guys remember Demar when he just came into the league??? Are you honestly going to continue writing posts whine'n about him not being a great player??? Sorry to hear that your expectations were so high, it was clearly unrealistic. Demar is in his 4th year and is a VERY GOOD player for us! Rudy (in his own words) said Demar is the best SG he's EVER played with. I think I would take his word over you incredibly consistent whiners.

                I just hope you temper your expectations of TRoss because you WILL be dissappointed!

                Demar 2012/13 stats (23 years old in his 4th year)- 17.7 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.6 apg (one-dimensional??? - GTFOH)

                Demar 2011/12 stats (22 years old in his 3rd year) - 16.7 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 2.0 apg

                Demar 2010/11 stats (21 years old in his 2nd year) - 17.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 1.8 apg

                Demar has Career highs in points, rebounds, free throw %, free throw attempts, steals and assists this year and still IMPROVING.....I repeat one dimensional?? LOL hahaha....hilarious

                http://www.nba.com/playerfile/demar_derozan/
                I don't "hate" DeRozan. I watch the games and am aware of the stats. I don't allow my passion for the Raptors or home-team bias cloud my judgement.

                - he signed a contract extension that begins next year, with him making $9.5M per season, which he has not yet proven to be worth
                - FG% is 43.1% this year and 45.1% for his career, while 3P% is 25.6% this year and 22.4% career, making him a very poor shooter (below average for a starting SG)
                - for the season he averages 14.9 shot attemps to score an average of 17.7 points, while averaging 37.3 MPG, making him a very inefficient scorer
                - rebounding and assist numbers have improved this year, but 4.1 RPG & 2.6 APG are far from impressive, especially when you consider how many minutes he plays and how much of a focal point he is for the team's offense
                - his defense is terrible
                - him having a great work ethic only matters if it translates to significant improvements on the court, which it hasn't thus far in his career (still a horrendous 3pt shooter, still has weak handles, still a terrible defender)
                - him claiming to like Toronto is just like his work ethic, in that it is meaningless on its own
                - Rudy Gay (or BC/DC) making claims about him, either straight-up or relative to other players, is also just like his work ethic in that it is meaningless on its own


                I honestly don't see anything in my original message that you quoted, which is untrue or should be considered "hating". Plus, it's only my opinion, based on watching the games and interpreting statistics.

                I would be quite pleased to see DeRozan make improvements to address the weaknesses in his game. I would be happy to see DeRozan blossom and become an all-star with the Raptors, becoming the first 'lifer' to get his jersey retired and hung from the ACC rafters.

                However, the truth is, his talent and production have been largely inefficient and one-dimensional thus far in his career, which is an issue that will only be magnified by his new $9.5M contract. I'm not "hating" on DeRozan, I'm simply offering a brutally honest - and I think fair - assessment of his career to date. I never said he hasn't shown any improvements throughout the course of his career, nor did I ever say that he wouldn't/couldn't continue to improve.

                I understand that DeRozan is a young, flashy player who has a reputation for being a hard worker and good teammate, who publically claims to love Toronto. I understand that this makes him a popular player and essentially makes him anti-Bargnani. However, part of being a fan is also accepting the flaws/weaknesses in our favourite players. That doesn't mean we like them any less or respect them any less, it just means that we aren't blinded by team loyalty and are capable of making an objective evaluation of every single player we cheer for.

                Comment


                • nilanka wrote: View Post
                  i don't think anyone is complaining about derozan's work ethic.

                  It's just that the results leave a lot to be desired. I see a lot of people praising his "improvements". But he went from "completely awful" to "mediocre". Yeah he's improved, but he's still well below what he need to be.

                  Imo, derozan needs to significantly improve his shooting (both mid-range and 3-point), ball-handling, rebounding, defence....and most importantly, his consistency. 34 points is nice, but when you follow it up just 42 total points over your next 3 games, that's big a problem. Teams cannot rely on players who don't perform the same way night in night out.
                  exactly.
                  Mamba Mentality

                  Comment


                  • TRex wrote: View Post
                    exactly.
                    You can't say exactly. Your original posts on this thread are contradictory. Pick one. Either you don't care about his work ethic, or that he produces and works hard.
                    Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                    Comment


                    • I find it funny people have such expectation of a number 9 pick. People at like he was top5 or even top 3 at times. For a player drafted at 9 DeMar has already surpass expectation of #9 pick.
                      @Chr1st1anL

                      Comment


                      • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                        I find it funny people have such expectation of a number 9 pick. People at like he was top5 or even top 3 at times. For a player drafted at 9 DeMar has already surpass expectation of #9 pick.
                        I totally agreed. I thought he was drafted to be an athlete and slaher off the bench at this point. He's inefficient statistically speaking career wise, but he's definitely exceeded my expectations. Likely to get better.

                        But, if you rewatch the 2009 draft, Demar wasn't a top 5 talent at the time, but his potential was top 5. That might be a problem for us, but I wasn't as sold on him in his rookie season.
                        Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                        Comment


                        • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                          I find it funny people have such expectation of a number 9 pick. People at like he was top5 or even top 3 at times. For a player drafted at 9 DeMar has already surpass expectation of #9 pick.
                          Personally speaking, I don't care where a player was drafted, how he was acquired or anything else. I only care what/how he contributes to the Raptors while he's a Raptor. My judgement of DeRozan is based on his current performance as a starting SG in the NBA, for a team that plans to contend for the playoffs beginning next season. He has lots of positives going for him and has improved from the time he entered the league, but I don't think he's proven to be an above average starting SG and certainly hasn't proved worthy of a $9.5M contract.

                          Comment


                          • RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                            He's an average defender, but he's improved. It's inconsistent, but it's improved. I wish he was a better defender, but he's improving.

                            I'm not defending him in being a average defender, just saying Demar has clearly improved in almost every facet of the game - if anything, added some - and has a great work ethic. The greatest players (who said Demar will be one of them?) have great work ethics, and live, eat, breathe, sleep basketball. He's getting compliments from one of the greatest to play the game on both ends of the court. With that said, I don't see any reason why Demar can't take the next step on the offensive end, and keep working on his defense.

                            I don't know if I would take Sefolosha or Allen any day over Demar. It basically becomes 4 on 5 on the offensive end. While, defensively, they are the clear cut players. I probably wouldn't, with this roster anyways. That's a bit of a harder question/statement to back up on why. For me anyways...
                            Average defender? you're kidding right? he's a well below average defender. Yeah he's much improved but he's still a mediocre defender. Klay Thompson, who i love, great shooter but not the quickest quy in the league blew by DeRozan several times the other night. It was comical.

                            As for for a future hall of famer in Payton praising DeRozan and saying he will be an all-star in a couple of years. Nowitzki, another future hall of famer said the same thing about Bargnani back in the days. Just because they're GREAT players doesn't mean they're always correct. Maybe they're just being nice?
                            Mamba Mentality

                            Comment


                            • RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                              You can't say exactly. Your original posts on this thread are contradictory. Pick one. Either you don't care about his work ethic, or that he produces and works hard.
                              I respect his work ethic but at the end of the day i want to see results.
                              Mamba Mentality

                              Comment


                              • TRex wrote: View Post
                                Average defender? you're kidding right? he's a well below average defender. Yeah he's much improved but he's still a mediocre defender. Klay Thompson, who i love, great shooter but not the quickest quy in the league blew by DeRozan several times the other night. It was comical.

                                As for for a future hall of famer in Payton praising DeRozan and saying he will be an all-star in a couple of years. Nowitzki, another future hall of famer said the same thing about Bargnani back in the days. Just because they're GREAT players doesn't mean they're always correct. Maybe they're just being nice?
                                LOL gotta love TRex aka MR. CONTRADICTION

                                Average is pretty close to Mediocre no?? Matter of fact - Are they any different when it comes to basketball??

                                Another JOKE is you comparing DD to AB. DD actually has the work ethic to be an all-star while AB.....come on man! You're seriously hating! Derozan is our 2nd best player *HANDS DOWN*. He gets to the free throw line like an all-star (and everyone knows he got tons of missed calls earlier in the season).

                                I know no matter what i say you'll have your opinion, but why all the hate dude. First you say he's not an average defender and then you say he's a mediocre defender......lol Enough said!

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