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  • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Those stats are dreadful... and it's the thing he does best! His 3pt shooting is even worse. Such inefficient scoring! As long as Gay and DeRozan are part of the same starting unit, this team can only ever hope to win on the odd nights when both their shots are dropping...
    He is around the average for guards in the NBA shooting 50% or higher for a wing is reserved for elite players Cs and PFs. DeMar is a second option wing player thats actually average-good for his position.

    Comment


    • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
      Well, you say that he is our scorer, but you also say that he can't take it to the hole and that shooting isn't his strength. You argue that he is basically a volume scorer and that's his role. If that's his role, there are plenty of players who can do that for far less money ... if you want that role at all (from a player who can't create).

      The difference with Bryant (besides the obvious difference in quality and defense) is that Bryant creates for himself and others, draws double teams and can (but doesn't always) pass out of them. Bryant also can help win games in other ways than scoring, something which DeRozan doesn't really show a lot.
      What you followed with the bold I would add his shot selection.

      DeMar's #1 most frequent shot is 16-24 (449attempts) feet with 0-8ft (401attempts) being #2, 8-16ft (261attempts) #3, and 24+ft (120attempts) #4.

      Kobe on the other had #1 most frequent shot is 0-8ft (518attempts) with 24+ft (401 attempts) #2, 16-24ft (378) #3, and 8-16ft (292) #4.

      Personally, I think this is a big difference that should be brought up in any comparison of Kobe to DeMar. It should also be noted that Kobe is hardly a proficient 3pt shooter either - just 33.6% on his career and not over 33% in his last 4 seasons (about 32%).

      But that 32% on 100 shots makes 96 points whereas DeMar's 41% on 16-24ft creates just 82 points. DeMar has to up that 16-24ft shooting percentage to 47% to equal Kobe's 32% on 3's. Also DeRozan was 155th in the league in percentage in this shot but the 2nd most attempts.


      This is depressing.

      Comment


      • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
        Well, you say that he is our scorer, but you also say that he can't take it to the hole and that shooting isn't his strength. You argue that he is basically a volume scorer and that's his role. If that's his role, there are plenty of players who can do that for far less money ... if you want that role at all (from a player who can't create).

        The difference with Bryant (besides the obvious difference in quality and defense) is that Bryant creates for himself and others, draws double teams and can (but doesn't always) pass out of them. Bryant also can help win games in other ways than scoring, something which DeRozan doesn't really show a lot.
        I didn't say he was our scorer, I said that's the role he was put into. Coming into this season, it was either him, Bargs, or Lowry. And I argued he could take it to the basket, which is why I looked up his FTA per game, not that he couldn't...you said that.

        Let me make myself clear. I'm not arguing Derozan is the guy (i.e, our go-to-scorer), nor am I arguing that he should be the guy or even have the chance to be the guy. But the fact is that BC gave him the extension and the opportunity to be the guy, and put him into that role. Whether he deserves it or not is debatable. I don't think he has what it takes to be that type of impact player. Nonetheless, he has accepted the role and has tried very hard to be that player and to live up to the expectations of that role and that extension. And he will continue to do so. I just don't think criticism is warranted simply because he doesn't have the skills or capability to fill that role. He should be commended for the attempt at over-achieving, because if he could do all the things everyone wants him to and have all the skills to make him an all-around SG and possible all-star, then he would be doing exactly that...over-achieving.

        Comment


        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          What you followed with the bold I would add his shot selection.

          DeMar's #1 most frequent shot is 16-24 (449attempts) feet with 0-8ft (401attempts) being #2, 8-16ft (261attempts) #3, and 24+ft (120attempts) #4.

          Kobe on the other had #1 most frequent shot is 0-8ft (518attempts) with 24+ft (401 attempts) #2, 16-24ft (378) #3, and 8-16ft (292) #4.

          Personally, I think this is a big difference that should be brought up in any comparison of Kobe to DeMar. It should also be noted that Kobe is hardly a proficient 3pt shooter either - just 33.6% on his career and not over 33% in his last 4 seasons (about 32%).

          But that 32% on 100 shots makes 96 points whereas DeMar's 41% on 16-24ft creates just 82 points. DeMar has to up that 16-24ft shooting percentage to 47% to equal Kobe's 32% on 3's. Also DeRozan was 155th in the league in percentage in this shot but the 2nd most attempts.


          This is depressing.
          Lol, I knew i shouldn't have used Kobe. I was just comparing their roles on their respective clubs to make a point. Your post actually supports my claims tho. Demar is not Kobe and never will be...I know this too and said as much in my post. My argument also suggested that Demar's low percentages are a result of poor team offense. Ultimately, because he is trying to be the main scorer on a poor offensive team, he takes some bad shots because there is no other option. He could easily let someone else take it, in which case his percentages would be better. It's the role he was put in, on a poor offensive team, that has resulted in low percentages and often poor shot selection. Very few, if any, other NBA teams would use Demar in this way and in those situations I'm sure there would be little to complain about.

          Comment


          • JawsGT wrote: View Post
            Lol, I knew i shouldn't have used Kobe. I was just comparing their roles on their respective clubs to make a point. Your post actually supports my claims tho. Demar is not Kobe and never will be...I know this too and said as much in my post. My argument also suggested that Demar's low percentages are a result of poor team offense. Ultimately, because he is trying to be the main scorer on a poor offensive team, he takes some bad shots because there is no other option. He could easily let someone else take it, in which case his percentages would be better. It's the role he was put in, on a poor offensive team, that has resulted in low percentages and often poor shot selection. Very few, if any, other NBA teams would use Demar in this way and in those situations I'm sure there would be little to complain about.
            I don't think it does.

            While I agree the offense is dreadful in Toronto and geared towards maximizing the attempts of the most inefficient shot in basketball, DeRozan is still the player making the decision to take the shots.

            I actually think Kobe is a good example. Both are high volume shot taking shooting guards. The difference is Kobe typically takes a long two point shot at 1:2.5 ratio of layups/3's. DeMar on the other hand settles for the long two point at nearly a 1:1 ratio (1:1.16) compared to layups/3's.

            Just to be clear I do agree with you about the poor offense run by Toronto leading to these types of shots. But at the same time, fault lies with DeRozan for the decisions with the ball as well. 449 16-24ft shot attempts compared to 401 0-8ft tells me he is settling for the jumper.

            Comment


            • So, about the dreadful stats, as per ESPN NBA for shooting guards:

              Demar DeRozan:

              1 of only 4 players to play all 82 games.
              4th in scoring @ 18.1 PPG behind only Wade, Harden and Kobe.
              4th in FGM per game @ 6.7
              5th in FGA per game @ 15.0
              3rd in MPG @ 36.7 and tied for 1st with Kobe for Total minutes @ 3013 minutes played
              8th in FG% @ 44.5 (not so bad)
              12th in FT% @ 83.1 but 3rd in makes and attempts (yes, he can get to the rim)
              13th in APG @ 2.5 and 16th in Total assists
              Tied for 13th with JTerry and Jamal Crawford in AST/TO ratio @ 1.35 (not bad, but probably turns the ball over too much) I think he ranked 28th worst in TOPG, so improvement there would be nice.
              16th in STPG @ 0.93
              13th in BPG @ 0.29
              9th in RPG @ 3.9

              13th in PPS @ 1.21. I think this is points per shot, so 13th is not too bad and puts him ahead of Iggy, J.R. Smith, Joe Johnson and Ben Gordon.

              21st in ADJFG% @ 45.9. This is where it may look bad, but both this stat and the one above (PPS) factor in the amount of points accrued per FGA, including 3pt of course. Demar shot around 28% from behind the arc.

              Conclusion: DeMar provided incredible value at ~3.34 mil this season.
              DeMar needs to improve his 3pt%. If his 3pt shot was 5% better, he would be right there with AA and TR and it would really increase his rankings for the rest of the shooting stats.
              DeMar needs to turn the ball over less.
              If DeMar were to improve these two aspects of his game, he would provide value @9.5mil/year.

              Now, if we take all that and put it into the context of how this Raptors team actually played ball this year, then it becomes even more apparent that Derozan isn't as bad as some of you want to believe. If he was in a position to take better shots more often via a better system, I'm sure he would improve in terms of FG%, PPS, and ADJFG%, and TO. This may not make up for his poor 3pt% however, so that is all on him, and if he can't improve that, then we have to find a way to utilize him without using the long range shot. DeRozan would work better in a team oriented offense. But if he is going to be one of the guys we go to in an ISO heavy offense, then he will constantly taking shots from areas he is least likely to make them becasue, well, most defenses aren't stupid.

              Anyways, his stats are far from AWFUL.

              Comment


              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                I don't think it does.

                While I agree the offense is dreadful in Toronto and geared towards maximizing the attempts of the most inefficient shot in basketball, DeRozan is still the player making the decision to take the shots.

                I actually think Kobe is a good example. Both are high volume shot taking shooting guards. The difference is Kobe typically takes a long two point shot at 1:2.5 ratio of layups/3's. DeMar on the other hand settles for the long two point at nearly a 1:1 ratio (1:1.16) compared to layups/3's.

                Just to be clear I do agree with you about the poor offense run by Toronto leading to these types of shots. But at the same time, fault lies with DeRozan for the decisions with the ball as well. 449 16-24ft shot attempts compared to 401 0-8ft tells me he is settling for the jumper.
                ok, good points, and maybe you are right. I'm sure DeRozan is too blame for some of the poor shot selection, but I still believe its a combo of a bad offensive system and the fact that he is expected to be one of the guys that takes the bad shot when nothing else is available. But, 449 deep two's relative to 401 shots in the paint does say alot. If the clock is ticking, take it to the hole Demar!!

                Comment


                • JawsGT wrote: View Post
                  So, about the dreadful stats, as per ESPN NBA for shooting guards:

                  Demar DeRozan:

                  1 of only 4 players to play all 82 games.
                  4th in scoring @ 18.1 PPG behind only Wade, Harden and Kobe.
                  4th in FGM per game @ 6.7
                  5th in FGA per game @ 15.0
                  3rd in MPG @ 36.7 and tied for 1st with Kobe for Total minutes @ 3013 minutes played
                  8th in FG% @ 44.5 (not so bad)
                  12th in FT% @ 83.1 but 3rd in makes and attempts (yes, he can get to the rim)
                  13th in APG @ 2.5 and 16th in Total assists
                  Tied for 13th with JTerry and Jamal Crawford in AST/TO ratio @ 1.35 (not bad, but probably turns the ball over too much) I think he ranked 28th worst in TOPG, so improvement there would be nice.
                  16th in STPG @ 0.93
                  13th in BPG @ 0.29
                  9th in RPG @ 3.9

                  13th in PPS @ 1.21. I think this is points per shot, so 13th is not too bad and puts him ahead of Iggy, J.R. Smith, Joe Johnson and Ben Gordon.

                  21st in ADJFG% @ 45.9. This is where it may look bad, but both this stat and the one above (PPS) factor in the amount of points accrued per FGA, including 3pt of course. Demar shot around 28% from behind the arc.

                  Conclusion: DeMar provided incredible value at ~3.34 mil this season.
                  DeMar needs to improve his 3pt%. If his 3pt shot was 5% better, he would be right there with AA and TR and it would really increase his rankings for the rest of the shooting stats.
                  DeMar needs to turn the ball over less.
                  If DeMar were to improve these two aspects of his game, he would provide value @9.5mil/year.

                  Now, if we take all that and put it into the context of how this Raptors team actually played ball this year, then it becomes even more apparent that Derozan isn't as bad as some of you want to believe. If he was in a position to take better shots more often via a better system, I'm sure he would improve in terms of FG%, PPS, and ADJFG%, and TO. This may not make up for his poor 3pt% however, so that is all on him, and if he can't improve that, then we have to find a way to utilize him without using the long range shot. DeRozan would work better in a team oriented offense. But if he is going to be one of the guys we go to in an ISO heavy offense, then he will constantly taking shots from areas he is least likely to make them becasue, well, most defenses aren't stupid.

                  Anyways, his stats are far from AWFUL.
                  I agree with you his stats are far from awful. The great thing about stats is you can paint them in a light to support any claim.

                  What SoftEuro and myself have been discussing is efficiency. From theNBAGeek.com:

                  category/Average/Demar

                  eFG%/49.5/45.9
                  TS%/53.7/52.3
                  FGA/17.5/19.6 (per48 minutes)
                  3ptFGA/6.1/1.9 (per48 minutes)

                  I think SoftEuro's comment on the volume scorer is fair, in my opinion.

                  Yes for DeMar's salary he is alright but next season is when the 9.5M kicks in and, based on his previous 4 seasons, there is no reason to think he will show exponential growth to make him a valuable piece at 9.5M.

                  Comment


                  • So I was watching James Harden play last night...

                    Guy took mostly threes, layups, or foul shots. A model for any SG...

                    DeRozan should just watch everything he does.

                    Save the mid range game for bigs trying to space the floor or late shot clock desperation moves
                    For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

                    Comment


                    • thead wrote: View Post
                      So I was watching James Harden play last night...

                      Guy took mostly threes, layups, or foul shots. A model for any SG...

                      DeRozan should just watch everything he does.

                      Save the mid range game for bigs trying to space the floor or late shot clock desperation moves
                      That's why I have a serious man crush (No homo - no disrespect intended) because he creates shots from 3, or to get to the rim.
                      Obviously getting to the rim and free throw line are easy points, and higher percentage shots. Taking the 3 is obviously awarding the player with an extra.

                      I defend DeMar, he is one of my favourite players on the team, has improved very well every season, he's done a great job in getting to the free throw line, solid post-game, play-making and rebounding has improved, has a terrific work ethic, but with his new physique, athletic ability, and obviously known as a slasher, this isn't an excuse on why he shouldn't just look to attack, regardless if he's not a threat from the outside.

                      Improving the handle, getting stronger, and working on the ability to hit from outside will be the reasons why he is an all-star at any point in his career. The mid-ranged game is there, that should be the last of his priorities.
                      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                      Comment


                      • thead wrote: View Post
                        So I was watching James Harden play last night...

                        Guy took mostly threes, layups, or foul shots. A model for any SG...

                        DeRozan should just watch everything he does.

                        Save the mid range game for bigs trying to space the floor or late shot clock desperation moves
                        The entire Rockets team plays that way. A major reflection of Morey and what he's trying to do with the team. 60 of their shots every game comes at the rim or from three, compared to 45 for the average team and they take the least 16-23 footers by far (8 less than the average team).

                        Toronto's problem is they're 24th in the league in shooting percentage from 16-23 ft, but they take the 11th most from there (unadjusted for pace, but still). Rudy Gay in particular really should cut that out; he's shooting 4.3 a game at 30%.

                        Comment


                        • TRX wrote: View Post
                          The entire Rockets team plays that way. A major reflection of Morey and what he's trying to do with the team. 60 of their shots every game comes at the rim or from three, compared to 45 for the average team and they take the least 16-23 footers by far (8 less than the average team).

                          Toronto's problem is they're 24th in the league in shooting percentage from 16-23 ft, but they take the 11th most from there (unadjusted for pace, but still). Rudy Gay in particular really should cut that out; he's shooting 4.3 a game at 30%.
                          What the *&$% is Colangelo doing with all this advanced stats shit? I am all about advanced stats and glad to hear Raptors employ people and technology to try and get an edge. But clearly it is for show on the Raptors part. What a bloody joke.

                          Clean house, Leiweke! Clean house!

                          Comment


                          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            What the *&$% is Colangelo doing with all this advanced stats shit? I am all about advanced stats and glad to hear Raptors employ people and technology to try and get an edge. But clearly it is for show on the Raptors part. What a bloody joke.

                            Clean house, Leiweke! Clean house!
                            Please dont clean house..

                            I think the fact that we are 11th most in taking the worst shots in the game is an offensive coaching problem, and a lack of chemistry in executing offensive sets.

                            I would be very upset if we blew things up right now.
                            Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Valancuinas with Amir, Ross should be our core moving forward. Young, talented as hell, and just need a chance to work together.
                            The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

                            Comment


                            • The Knicks played Raptor offense last night (isolation and long jumpshots), and it didn't work even though Melo/JR > Gay/Demar. I hope Casey was watching

                              Comment


                              • Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
                                The Knicks played Raptor offense last night (isolation and long jumpshots), and it didn't work even though Melo/JR > Gay/Demar. I hope Casey was watching
                                Exactly, this is a coaching/execution issue, not a talent issue. Iso's and the long 2 (and some of both) should not be our offensive strategy.
                                The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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