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  • JWash wrote: View Post
    Cause he's hurting us and we need to let him go.

    Either that or he just doesn't contribute to wins. And his production exists in some vacuum between a win and a loss where its non-existence in any sort of tangible basketball result appears like a black hole on the stat-sheet.
    Very much seems like you are just trolling here to get other people into a conversation that you don't actually believe in. Tread lightly.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • JWash wrote: View Post
      This is the time to trade him. For once the "he'll never be better" actually applies. No this isn't the foolishness we've seen in the past where we swap him for Danny Green or Dion Waiters or a mid-late 1st round pick. This a legitimate star asset. He's there now. 23-5-4, efficient, advanced stats check out, he's big time, he's a star in this league and assassin a warrior, a scoring demon in a suit of skin, muscle and bones.

      But we don't need him. TRoss has what it takes to be a starting SG in this league. 3+D, can stroke it from deep, athletic, can get out on the break and finish, lock down his man, play passing lanes, etc.

      Time to cash in DeRozan. Deal him for a legitimate star at the PF position or a prospect who can become that. More flexibility, same talent level on the team. The only question now is who, when and how.
      The NBA seems to be slowly and steadily changing the rules of the game in favor of smaller players (i.e. guards, wings), so unless you're getting a 3/4 type (Draymond, Lebron, PG,...) type, then you trade him for another 2/3 wing (Kawhi, ...), not a PF or C. Or it would have to be a potentially generational big, like Porzingis, but zero chance of getting him. Pretty sure the NBA would consider lowering the height of the rims if they felt they could withstand the backlash. Or perhaps make a 4-point shot from 35 ft.

      From a marketing standpoint, the general public has always connected stronger with smaller/medium sized guys like Iverson/Kobe rather than behemoths like Shaq - who has personality. Steph Curry is the NBA's wet dream superstar.

      The OP is trolling for sure, but still, every player can be traded for the right price.
      Last edited by golden; Fri Jan 29, 2016, 12:07 PM.

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      • JWash wrote: View Post
        Cause he's hurting us and we need to let him go.

        Either that or he just doesn't contribute to wins. And his production exists in some vacuum between a win and a loss where its non-existence in any sort of tangible basketball result appears like a black hole on the stat-sheet.
        Show me once where I said he's hurting us?

        I've defended DeMar a lot in the past two weeks, I don't think he's hurting us, I'm just not convinced he's helping us enough to be a max player.
        twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          Very much seems like you are just trolling here to get other people into a conversation that you don't actually believe in. Tread lightly.
          I'm not trolling. I'm playing devil's advocate.

          It seems like many people are bringing up this topic indirectly without actually bringing it up so I figured it would.

          Would it be a good move to deal the guy? Is that what's best for the team?

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          • sure, to a degree.

            what are you getting for him?
            @sweatpantsjer

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            • JWash wrote: View Post
              I'm not trolling. I'm playing devil's advocate.

              It seems like many people are bringing up this topic indirectly without actually bringing it up so I figured it would.

              Would it be a good move to deal the guy? Is that what's best for the team?
              Is it terrible that some of us, while admitting he's really good and advocating in favor of keeping him long term(which I've done), still want him to get better? Want him to involve and improve the other guys offensively? Is it ok if I see signs that he isn't doing this, and wish he would?

              Isn't the whole point of this forum for us to talk about the things we like and don't like with the Raptors?

              Can't I like a guy, and still wish he did certain things better?
              twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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              • Barolt wrote: View Post
                Show me once where I said he's hurting us?

                I've defended DeMar a lot in the past two weeks, I don't think he's hurting us, I'm just not convinced he's helping us enough to be a max player.
                Well when you say that the team doesn't move the ball well when DeRozan's not on the court. And all our best lineups are when DD's not in the game and Ross is. Or Lowry+Bench is when we're at our best. That's an indication to me that DeRozan is preventing us from playing at our best level, meaning that yes, he is in fact hurting us. Not in the same way as someone like Gay where it's just blatant chucking, but like Joe Johnson on the Hawks back in 2008, 2009 ish like many have alluded to. Where he's playing great but people think he's not actually helping the team at all, and it'd be better served with him replaced.

                I'm not gleaning any sort of alternative meaning from your posts. That just a logical analysis of what's been said over the past few weeks.

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                • thead wrote: View Post
                  nah, I'll keep him, the trade value on him unless he goes to a place he wants to is NIL
                  That's where I fall.

                  I think that this would be the best time to trade him if he WASN'T an UFA on his last year of a contract. Unlike where I was at the beginning of the year, I don't think it's better to just let him walk. He's not a max player but will demand max money. It's better to sign him and trade him next year (whether or not he regresses) as the trade value might technically be lower BUT what you'd get for him would be better.

                  This is easily the best Demar has ever been and the only time he doesn't actually appear to be hurting us with his play (even if the ball does stick more with him on the court although nowhere near to the degree it did before).

                  Unless OKC gives us Ibaka.

                  JWash wrote: View Post
                  Cause he's hurting us and we need to let him go.

                  Either that or he just doesn't contribute to wins. And his production exists in some vacuum between a win and a loss where its non-existence in any sort of tangible basketball result appears like a black hole on the stat-sheet.
                  You kind of outted yourself here in terms of the real reason you created this thread.
                  Last edited by Just Is; Fri Jan 29, 2016, 12:13 PM.
                  "My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
                  "If it's unacceptable in defeat, it's unacceptable in victory." - Jeff Van Gundy

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                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    Well when you say that the team doesn't move the ball well when DeRozan's not on the court. And all our best lineups are when DD's not in the game and Ross is. Or Lowry+Bench is when we're at our best. That's an indication to me that DeRozan is preventing us from playing at our best level, meaning that yes, he is in fact hurting us. Not in the same way as someone like Gay where it's just blatant chucking, but like Joe Johnson on the Hawks back in 2008, 2009 ish like many have alluded to. Where he's playing great but people think he's not actually helping the team at all, and it'd be better served with him replaced.

                    I'm not gleaning any sort of alternative meaning from your posts. That just a logical analysis of what's been said over the past few weeks.
                    The team DOESN'T move the ball as well when DeMar's on the floor. Our best lineups are when DD's not in the game. Lowry+Bench is our best group right now.

                    I don't say these things, the stats do. None of that means DeMar's hurting us, it just means he could help us more.
                    twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                    • Barolt wrote: View Post
                      The team DOESN'T move the ball as well when DeMar's on the floor. Our best lineups are when DD's not in the game. Lowry+Bench is our best group right now.

                      I don't say these things, the stats do. None of that means DeMar's hurting us, it just means he could help us more.
                      How do the stats mean he could help us more.

                      If all these stats say the Raptors are better when DeRozan is off the floor, then doesn't that mean he's hurting the team? If you're better when someone isn't there, then that means they're presence is making you worse. Or am I just not following the logic correctly here?

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                      • JWash wrote: View Post
                        . For once the "he'll never be better" actually applies. .
                        Is this true though?
                        If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                        • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                          Is this true though?
                          Well he's fixed most of the problems that have made him a minus in the past. Poor shot selection is more or less gone, he's playing the way someone with his skillset is supposed to. But is that play helping us win or is it holding us back from being even better than we are right now, that's the question?

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                          • JWash wrote: View Post
                            How do the stats mean he could help us more.

                            If all these stats say the Raptors are better when DeRozan is off the floor, then doesn't that mean he's hurting the team? If you're better when someone isn't there, then that means they're presence is making you worse. Or am I just not following the logic correctly here?
                            You're definitely trolling, but I'll humor you.

                            Those stats don't exist in a vacuum. Right now our starting lineup is awful, and that hurts DeMar. The biggest place he needs to improve is his lineup with the bench, which doesn't generate a lot of assists. If he ran the bench group more like Lowry does, it would be a big improvement for him.
                            twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                            • Barolt wrote: View Post
                              You're definitely trolling, but I'll humor you.

                              Those stats don't exist in a vacuum. Right now our starting lineup is awful, and that hurts DeMar. The biggest place he needs to improve is his lineup with the bench, which doesn't generate a lot of assists. If he ran the bench group more like Lowry does, it would be a big improvement for him.
                              I'm not trolling I'm asking you a question.

                              Yes I know that our starting lineup hurts DeMar, but as DanH pointed out in another thread, it also hurts Lowry/JV and they don't have the same negative rating issues as he does.

                              I don't think DeRozan is actually capable of running the bench group like Lowry does because he's not as good. While his playmaking has improved, he doesn't have the natural PG ability that Lowry has as well as the patience and skillset required to play off the ball just as effectively as on it.

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                              • A few things...

                                1) he is our longest tenured player and has publicly displayed unshaking interest in returning; dealing him will look really bad .

                                2) Lowry and him aren't just friends on/off the court but while on the court they are one of the best duos in the league.

                                3) DeMar is producing at a MUCH higher level than his pay grade, we will only be able to get as much talent as his current contract value allows, therefore selling ourselves short.

                                4) He is 26 and has shown great growth across-the-board every year, are you guys really all going to bet that he is at his peak right now? The game just looks to be slowing down for him (actually for him and Lowry at the same time - Rarity)

                                5) Our all-star back court is a big selling point to free agents in my opinion, and all if this success is coming without Carrol (our starting line is suffering because of JJ), DeMar will have more room once Carroll returns, as well as another outside shooter to hit with kick outs.

                                I'm not a DeMar booster , nor am I a DeMar hater, but I feel this team as currently constructed has not reached its ceiling.. our best move is either no move (until the off-season) or a smaller trade to bring in a PF like Terrence Jones.. to me, the only pieces I would consider movable is Scola & JJ or any number of the prospects and picks.

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