Everything Derozan

[Snooch]

What I'm saying is we have zero players of that level so we can't compete for a title. It's not DD that's holding us back it's the lack of a superstar or even good coaching...

EDIT: I guarantee you no one around the league is looking at the Raptors and saying "If they just had an efficient 3+D guy instead of that damned DeRozan they'd be in for the Larry O'Brien for sure!" They're saying, "Good team, but they don't have that guy who can take them over the top, kinda reminds me of those Nuggets teams from a few years ago or the Joe Johnson Atlanta Hawks teams".

No one says move Demar and we are a championship team.....but Move Demar for the right pieces and we move closer.

Keeping Demar keeps ourselves on the outside looking in as early playoff fodder.

[JWash]

Read the forst 4 words of my post.

I dont remember...so whatever....doesnt change my opinions or points to go after something I typed that was forgotten to me.

I was just pointing out that the Celtics did have a superstar, MVP-caliber type player on their team. Not to mention that Pierce and Ray Allen are hall-of-famers. And just saying I didn't "remember" that I just googled it, which you could've also done.

My point going back was that you need that level of talent to win a championship. The Raptors just don't have it. THAT is what is holding us back from being a championship level team, I think most people agree on that, and if you asked other fans around the league they'd say the same.

[JWash]

The only two points I've made about DeMar in these past few pages are as follows:

1.) I would pay him an amount, that while expensive would still allow him to be retained and be a trade asset moving forwards at the least; rather than simply let him walk.. unless we are letting him walk to sign a top tier talent (Horford, Durant).

2.) What's stopping this team from contending for a title are a lack of superstar talent and mediocre coaching. I suppose you could say that the problem is that we don't have a superstar in DeMar's role, but the point is really the same. No superstar, no title.

[Snooch]

But doing something that only 8 guys in the entire league do, is something to be commended, no? Not something to be picked apart and discredited.
I think everyone agrees that Demar isn't on the same level as Lebron, Durant or Curry, and I don't think JWash was implying that Demar is Elite or on the same level. I think he was just trying to illustrate that Demar does more than score, and averaging 4 of each vs 5 of each, still illustrates that point; in my opinion. And even if Demar was averaging 5 of each, instead of 4, it would only be because of "ballooning due to his usage", would it not?


And as for the posters that over-value him, I suppose that depends on what you're initial opinion of his value truly is ... I would argue that those who "under-value" him, are actually over-valueing him to make their point, by suggesting he is worth a Max contract, or would be able to net us Top-10 picks and fantastic prospects as nothing more than a rental piece.

there are currently 10 guys doing it right now in the nba

Demar has by FAR the worst shooting, and the second lowest win share.

And with his free throw rate dropping so whill that TS%

And Remember that Tyreke and Irving arent in that 20-4-4 class yet either, and they both will for certain be.

[Wild-ling#1]

I mean it's not like 20-5-5 even means that a player is a superstar or whatever. I just said it because 20, 5, 5 are nice numbers that he's close to. Yes technically he's a 20-4-4 guy. Jamal Mashburn had 2 seasons where he averaged 20-5-5 and Tyreke Evans had 1 so it's not indicative of an elite player or superstardom.

I just said a guy that puts up DeMar's line will have trade value even at 20M per year in the new cap environment.

Only guys to get 20-4-4 in the last 3 seasons (including this year) are KD, Harden, Curry, LeBron, Love, Lillard, Westbrook, Blake Griffin, Lowry, George, DeRozan, Knight and Kobe. Again I am in no way shape or form saying that DeRozan is on the same level as all the other guys on that list. But almost everyone listed there is untouchable except Lowry, DD and Knight. ...

Seems to me that the guys who are arguing DeMar is not worth a "max" contract are really mostly concerned Masai might give him the $20M+ precisely because that is likely at the lower end of his market value. He might actually be giving us a bit a discount in taking it.

Seems manifestly unfair (and unkind) to insist say a guy who might take less than his market value, to stay with the hometown team, would still be waaaay "overpaid".

And "yes" we all know that the NBA player market is distorted by the influx of TV cash and the salary cap. But GM's still have to live and work with those distortions. It means, essentially, that you're going to have to be lucky to get a player of even equivalent value (let alone a better player) if you simply let him "walk".

It's not impossible. But it does seem you're likelier to be worse off. So I think JWash is only suggesting that Masai might well consider preserving the asset and upgrading the roster (as he is committed to do) via other means.

[Snooch]

I was just pointing out that the Celtics did have a superstar, MVP-caliber type player on their team. Not to mention that Pierce and Ray Allen are hall-of-famers. And just saying I didn't "remember" that I just googled it, which you could've also done.

My point going back was that you need that level of talent to win a championship. The Raptors just don't have it. THAT is what is holding us back from being a championship level team, I think most people agree on that, and if you asked other fans around the league they'd say the same.

Of course we dont have it as we currently stand, but we should.

Lowry is a vastly superior player to Demar, JV is a superior player to Demar and both have lower usage. So based on Metrics, remove Demar from being most used down to a best of third most used and the team improves.

So why cater to a player who will handicap us in moving towards getting it both financialy and systematically?

Why settle for not having "it"?

[Joey]

Casey is an idiot for catering to his "star" player.

Demar is his boy, and that is the biggest idiocracy of caseyball.

the system is in place to maximize Demar, and it does work at maximizing what he can give you.

He shoots poorly and defends poorly so using him as a 3 and d is stupid

He is decent shot creator for himself, and is good at getting to the line from it, so the best way to maximize that is to spread the floor, give him room.

I think in this one instance, Casey is right and good, I disagree with him trying to maximize Demar in the first place and instead should focus on more highly efficient offenses.....like MAsai told casey....and work more with JV, Lowry etc...lbringing in Joseph and Scola and Carrol should help that as well...but Casey has them Spacing for Demar

So you're saying that Casey is putting Demar in the absolute best possible offensive sets to get the most efficient production from Demar? Really? Honestly?

[JWash]

there are currently 10 guys doing it right now in the nba

Demar has by FAR the worst shooting, and the second lowest win share.

And with his free throw rate dropping so whill that TS%

And Remember that Tyreke and Irving arent in that 20-4-4 class yet either, and they both will for certain be.

On a list that features 10 players, with 6 of them being superstars (Griffin, LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, George), idk where else one would expect DeRozan to be other than near the bottom because he's flat-out just nowhere near as good as those guys.

But I do think this production does give him value even if he were to get a larger contract, that was the only point I made. Not that he's some kind of elite player because he isn't. The reality is that if DeRozan WAS on the level of those 6 guys, we would be in title contention.

[Joey]

there are currently 10 guys doing it right now in the nba

Demar has by FAR the worst shooting, and the second lowest win share.

And with his free throw rate dropping so whill that TS%

And Remember that Tyreke and Irving arent in that 20-4-4 class yet either, and they both will for certain be.

For certain? Tyreke hasn't done it since 09-10....

[Snooch]

The only two points I've made about DeMar in these past few pages are as follows:

1.) I would pay him an amount, that while expensive would still allow him to be retained and be a trade asset moving forwards at the least; rather than simply let him walk.. unless we are letting him walk to sign a top tier talent (Horford, Durant).

2.) What's stopping this team from contending for a title are a lack of superstar talent and mediocre coaching. I suppose you could say that the problem is that we don't have a superstar in DeMar's role, but the point is really the same. No superstar, no title.

No Superstar no title thing is not correct. And if it was might as well just not even play.Just tank every year in hopes of getting a generational talent cause if you cant win why play.

AS been discussed ad naseum, no team is with a "superstar" is going to move him for Demar, nor are you going to sign said superstar while paying Demar.

You move demar for capspace and filler, maintain the current status of the team without demar, bring in a new coach and system and run a more fundamentally sound offense, continue to aquire and cash in like the Boston big three.

[Snooch]

For certain? Tyreke hasn't done it since 09-10....

tyreke has been hurt alot, and not having a defined role.

But your right he doesnt shoot as much as demar anymore.

But you can put Reggie Jackson in his place...still the same point, different names/semantics.

[Snooch]

On a list that features 10 players, with 6 of them being superstars (Griffin, LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, George), idk where else one would expect DeRozan to be other than near the bottom because he's flat-out just nowhere near as good as those guys.

But I do think this production does give him value even if he were to get a larger contract, that was the only point I made. Not that he's some kind of elite player because he isn't. The reality is that if DeRozan WAS on the level of those 6 guys, we would be in title contention.

You continually glaze over the point of the usage itself.

You can put a large number of players in the same position, have a team set up around them, and will get the same results.

Demar is completely and utterly undeserving and his "20-4-4" is based largely on said usage/system. Take that shit away and his numbers drop. See Stephenson, Lance.

[Snooch]

So you're saying that Casey is putting Demar in the absolute best possible offensive sets to get the most efficient production from Demar? Really? Honestly?

not most effeicient, he is milking demar though. Absolutely.

You think Demar is as effective a player without the ball in his hands? or with a usage of 20? or being used like Dany Green or Kyle Korver on offense? or being like Carrol who capitalizes on the play itself by making reads and reacting?

Or in the role he is currently in?

[JWash]

No Superstar no title thing is not correct. And if it was might as well just not even play.Just tank every year in hopes of getting a generational talent cause if you cant win why play.

AS been discussed ad naseum, no team is with a "superstar" is going to move him for Demar, nor are you going to sign said superstar while paying Demar.

You move demar for capspace and filler, maintain the current status of the team without demar, bring in a new coach and system and run a more fundamentally sound offense, continue to aquire and cash in like the Boston big three.

This is a huge contradiction I'm sorry. If you want to use a team to argue that you can win without a superstar the only example really available is the 2003-04 Pistons... and one could argue that Ben Wallace was a superstar almost purely by virtue of his defensive impact because it was so significant (7th in MVP voting that year, 2nd team all NBA, 1st team all defense, robbed of DPOY by all metrics). Not to mention they had 3 all-star level players in addition to him.

The NBA is a superstar driven league. That's why many here are growing impatient because the Raptors haven't had one for ages (and when we did we fucked it up). I mean just look at the best players from past title winners:

2015: Curry
2014: Duncan/Kawhi (and unquestionably top 3 coach all-time)
2013: LeBron
2012: LeBron
2011: Dirk
2010: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2008: Garnett
2007: Duncan
2006: Wade
2005: Duncan
2004: Hard to say who was the Pistons best player
2003: Duncan
2002: Shaq
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq
1999: Duncan
1998: Jordan
1997: Jordan
1996: Jordan
1995: Olajuwon
1994: Olajuwon
1993: Jordan
1992: Jordan
1991: Jordan

Like who do we have that compares to these guys? No one. Also notice how much the names repeat. LeBron has been in the past 5 finals. Kobe was in the 3 before that. LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Jordan have been in every single finals since 1991 except the 1994 finals when Jordan wasn't even in the league. That's 6 guys represented in 24 out of 25 NBA finals. Superstars are needed to compete at that level.

[Joey]

not most effeicient, he is milking demar though. Absolutely.

You think Demar is as effective a player without the ball in his hands? or with a usage of 20? or being used like Dany Green or Kyle Korver on offense? or being like Carrol who capitalizes on the play itself by making reads and reacting?

Or in the role he is currently in?

Why are those our only two options?
I'm sure there are other options.

Like....
Amp up his corner 3s, and sets that get him corner 3s.
Amp up his cuts off ball with sets that actually reward cutters.
Amp up sets that see Demar driving and kicking to open shooters, and create better sets to get guys more open off ball instead of just standing around.

Cut back on sets that require he shoot contested mid range shots with no teammates to pass to.