Everything Derozan

[raptors999]

not most effeicient, he is milking demar though. Absolutely.

You think Demar is as effective a player without the ball in his hands? or with a usage of 20? or being used like Dany Green or Kyle Korver on offense? or being like Carrol who capitalizes on the play itself by making reads and reacting?

Or in the role he is currently in?

Casey likes Demar because he can play 40 mpg and can create his own shot and with his FT rate isn't a BAD scorer. For a coach with no concept of offense he is invaluable. Teams like the Bucks and Sixers would love a Demar. Casey is taking the ball out of KL, CoJo and JV hands by force feeding a ball-stopper to squeeze out offense in the most difficult way imaginable.

[Snooch]

This is a huge contradiction I'm sorry. If you want to use a team to argue that you can win without a superstar the only example really available is the 2003-04 Pistons... and one could argue that Ben Wallace was a superstar almost purely by virtue of his defensive impact because it was so significant (7th in MVP voting that year, 2nd team all NBA, 1st team all defense, robbed of DPOY by all metrics). Not to mention they had 3 all-star level players in addition to him.

The NBA is a superstar driven league. That's why many here are growing impatient because the Raptors haven't had one for ages (and when we did we fucked it up). I mean just look at the best players from past title winners:

2015: Curry
2014: Duncan/Kawhi (and unquestionably top 3 coach all-time)
2013: LeBron
2012: LeBron
2011: Dirk
2010: Kobe
2009: Kobe
2008: Garnett
2007: Duncan
2006: Wade
2005: Duncan
2004: Hard to say who was the Pistons best player
2003: Duncan
2002: Shaq
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq
1999: Duncan
1998: Jordan
1997: Jordan
1996: Jordan
1995: Olajuwon
1994: Olajuwon
1993: Jordan
1992: Jordan
1991: Jordan

Like who do we have that compares to these guys? No one. Also notice how much the names repeat. LeBron has been in the past 5 finals. Kobe was in the 3 before that. LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Jordan have been in every single finals since 1991 except the 1994 finals when Jordan wasn't even in the league. That's 6 guys represented in 24 out of 25 NBA finals. Superstars are needed to compete at that level.

good job googling, but it makes no difference,

Liek I asked you much earlier and you failed to answer.


Why keep and pay a third banana(1st banana pricing) when waiting on a 1st and 2nd banana.

I easily argue that JV and Lowry are both second bananas. Problem is Demar. Move him, save the money and look for player 1.

You propose keeping demar, paying him and hoping that a pick between 10-15 instantly becomes a superstar before our 2nd tiered players are too aged(Lowry, Carroll, etc) or hope that someone out there will trade a bonified superstar for an admittedly overpaid 3rd starter or sixth man.

[Snooch]

Casey likes Demar because he can play 40 mpg and can create his own shot and with his FT rate isn't a BAD scorer. For a coach with no concept of offense he is invaluable. Teams like the Bucks and Sixers would love a Demar. Casey is taking the ball out of KL, CoJo and JV hands by force feeding a ball-stopper to squeeze out offense in the most difficult way imaginable.

I would love to send the bucks demar for Middleton, he is ciriminally misued over there.

[Joey]

tyreke has been hurt alot, and not having a defined role.

But your right he doesnt shoot as much as demar anymore.

But you can put Reggie Jackson in his place...still the same point, different names/semantics.

But you just said "Tyreke would for certain be a 20-4-4 guy" ... and you're right he shoots less than Demar. When you've got a guy like Anthony Davis, I think the pecking order is made pretty clear. We do not have a guy like Anthony Davis.

And Reggie Jackson also has a much higher Usage rate than Demar, is being paid much more than Demar, and is shooting a worse FG%. But sure, point made. Reggie Jackson is pretty good too.

[Snooch]

Why are those our only two options?
I'm sure there are other options.

Like....
Amp up his corner 3s, and sets that get him corner 3s.
Amp up his cuts off ball with sets that actually reward cutters.
Amp up sets that see Demar driving and kicking to open shooters, and create better sets to get guys more open off ball instead of just standing around.

Cut back on sets that require he shoot contested mid range shots with no teammates to pass to.

Corner threes - why do that when we just signed Carroll, who is Infinately better at doing exactly that.
Cuts - Sure, should be far more cutting in the offense. But again, demar is not the best at them Carroll and Joseph are both better.
Driving and Kicking - We have players already better than that. Run Lowry making that play, or Joseph...especially Joseph. that is his game, and he is fantastic at it. Why should we do any of these other things when there are player on the roster better at that exact skill than Demar? We should be doing it with them.

[Joey]

Corner threes - why do that when we just signed Carroll, who is Infinately better at doing exactly that.
Cuts - Sure, should be far more cutting in the offense. But again, demar is not the best at them Carroll and Joseph are both better.
Driving and Kicking - We have players already better than that. Run Lowry making that play, or Joseph...especially Joseph. that is his game, and he is fantastic at it. Why should we do any of these other things when there are player on the roster better at that exact skill than Demar? We should be doing it with them.

I don't follow your logic at all ... you said there is only 2 ways to play Demar ... like Kyle Korver, and or like how is being played right now, and that you agreed with how Casey is choosing to play Demar.

I pointed out how that was incorrect and Demar could be used better ... but now because Demar isn't the best on the team at everything, we shouldn't be making sets to make him better at all?

[JWash]

good job googling, but it makes no difference,

Liek I asked you much earlier and you failed to answer.


Why keep and pay a third banana(1st banana pricing) when waiting on a 1st and 2nd banana.

I easily argue that JV and Lowry are both second bananas. Problem is Demar. Move him, save the money and look for player 1.

You propose keeping demar, paying him and hoping that a pick between 10-15 instantly becomes a superstar before our 2nd tiered players are too aged(Lowry, Carroll, etc) or hope that someone out there will trade a bonified superstar for an admittedly overpaid 3rd starter or sixth man.

I have never proposed keeping DeRozan for 1st banana pricing. Max money is 1st banana money, I proposed ~20M per year. That is approximately 67% of the max (29M/year) for a player of his experience. I propose keeping DeMar unless we can secure a star player with the available cap space (which actually is an impossibility now with Ross' contract barring salary dumps). Not because I think he's a superstar, but because I think --- even on a more expensive deal --- he's an asset. Either as the 3rd banana if you can secure a superstar while he's still there, or in a trade in a package for a superior talent, or in a trade for picks/prospects if we decide to blow things up. I think the opportunity cost of letting him walk for nothing is higher than signing him to such a deal.

[Snooch]

But you just said "Tyreke would for certain be a 20-4-4 guy" ... and you're right he shoots less than Demar. When you've got a guy like Anthony Davis, I think the pecking order is made pretty clear. We do not have a guy like Anthony Davis.

And Reggie Jackson also has a much higher Usage rate than Demar, is being paid much more than Demar, and is shooting a worse FG%. But sure, point made. Reggie Jackson is pretty good too.

Jackson is shooting better.(demar 42.1% from 2pt, reggie 42%....demar 22.2% from 3, reggie 35.4%.... Demar 43.2% Efg Reggie 46.7% efg)

Demar is playing on a contract that was signed 4 years ago, Jackson just signed his. lets see who is paid more this offseason.

You were right to point out usage though, and thank you cause you are agreeing with a point I made about Demar earlier. Reggie wouldnt be averaging 6.7 assists and 4.2 rebounds if he didnt have a 30 usage rate.....nor would Demar average 4 and 4 without a 28% usage rate.

[Joey]

Jackson is shooting better.(demar 42.1% from 2pt, reggie 42%....demar 22.2% from 3, reggie 35.4%.... Demar 43.2% Efg Reggie 46.7% efg)

Demar is playing on a contract that was signed 4 years ago, Jackson just signed his. lets see who is paid more this offseason.

You were right to point out usage though, and thank you cause you are agreeing with a point I made about Demar earlier. Reggie wouldnt be averaging 6.7 assists and 4.2 rebounds if he didnt have a 30 usage rate.....nor would Demar average 4 and 4 without a 28% usage rate.

You're all over the place man. I can't keep up. I tap out. You win.

[Snooch]

I have never proposed keeping DeRozan for 1st banana pricing. Max money is 1st banana money, I proposed ~20M per year. That is approximately 67% of the max (29M/year) for a player of his experience. I propose keeping DeMar unless we can secure a star player with the available cap space (which actually is an impossibility now with Ross' contract barring salary dumps). Not because I think he's a superstar, but because I think --- even on a more expensive deal --- he's an asset. Either as the 3rd banana if you can secure a superstar while he's still there, or in a trade in a package for a superior talent, or in a trade for picks/prospects if we decide to blow things up. I think the opportunity cost of letting him walk for nothing is higher than signing him to such a deal.

He is not worth 20 million per year.

The team would be far better served trading him now for straight expirings and a young player.

Give me pope and a pick
Give me Noah and a pick


Youth and financial flexibility is a FAR better option that a 20 million dollar demar.

[Snooch]

I don't follow your logic at all ... you said there is only 2 ways to play Demar ... like Kyle Korver, and or like how is being played right now, and that you agreed with how Casey is choosing to play Demar.

I pointed out how that was incorrect and Demar could be used better ... but now because Demar isn't the best on the team at everything, we shouldn't be making sets to make him better at all?

(doing multiple things at once, lol)

I agree with you that Demar can be used better....absolutely....But my point is that ways in which Demar can be better used, we have players who would do better than him in the same roles. the earlier post about Korver was just a simple and fast way of me typing out how Demar would still be inefficient in other uses.

[Joey]

(doing multiple things at once, lol)

I agree with you that Demar can be used better....absolutely....But my point is that ways in which Demar can be better used, we have players who would do better than him in the same roles. the earlier post about Korver was just a simple and fast way of me typing out how Demar would still be inefficient in other uses.

But you just said that was Casey was right to be using Demar how is currently being used, because that is how to get the most out of him ... did you not?

Anyway, ya, I guess my desire to stick up for Demar isn't anywhere near your desire to rip him apart. LOL Good debatin'!

[Snooch]

You're all over the place man. I can't keep up. I tap out. You win.

I have alot of quotes to respond to, gets a little crazy, multiple convos at once.

You said reggie is a worse shooter, stats say otherwise...reggie is much better.

You said Demar is cheaper than reggie, while that is true for now we will have to honestly compare contracts this offseason as demar is due for a big raise and Reggie already got his.

You said reggie has a much higher usage which totally falls in line with a previous post of mine and MANY others that some of this 20-4-4 and even ftas that Demar gets needs to be attributed to. Just like your implication of Reggies Usage(or if not an implication I still agree)

[Snooch]

But you just said that was Casey was right to be using Demar how is currently being used, because that is how to get the most out of him ... did you not?

Anyway, ya, I guess my desire to stick up for Demar isn't anywhere near your desire to rip him apart. LOL Good debatin'!

lolololololool

Yeah I did say that. I may not have been very clear though with damn work getting in the way of shit.

this current system, imo, maximizes demars best attributes. FTAs.

But it is a flawed system, and an ugly one, and one that is misplaced. But I does maximize demars output. I cannot see Demar going for 20-4-4 in any other system. So Caseys got that right. If his plan is to maximize Demar and from out of that squeeze as many reg season wins as possible to try and keep a job then he is right on it. But he is also destroying maximizing Lowry and JV and Carrol and joseph and and and and and and

[mcHAPPY]

Casey is the anti-Pop

Pop gives up good shot for great shot.

Casey gives up better shots for contested, difficult.....intentionally.


Haha I laugh because my anger is gone and the tears have dried.