View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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    1 1.49%
  • B

    18 26.87%
  • C

    40 59.70%
  • D

    8 11.94%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #2281
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    DeRozan has shown very little sustained improvement this season.

    1. Scoring
    - PPG is 17.6, up only 0.9 PPG from last year (16.7 PPG), despite playing more (36.8 MPG this season VS 35.0 MPG last season)
    - very inefficient scoring: 15 FGA per game to score 17.6 PPG
    - shooting is bad and has barely improved: 43.7% (compared to 42.2% last season)
    - still a terrible 3pt shooter which has actually gotten worse: 23.1% (compared to 26.1% last season)

    2. Other
    - still a terrible defender
    - still unable to create consistently for himself (poor handles)
    - still a weak finisher at the rim (use athleticism to go strong and dunk the ball, AND draw fouls!)
    - still a minor contributor in other areas: 4.0 RPG (compared to 3.3 RPG last season), 2.6 APG (compared to 2.0 APG last season), 1.0 STL per game (compared to 0.8 STL per game last season)
    - still absolutely disappears for long stretches, or even complete games

    I expected to see much more growth and improvement from DeRozan this season, considering it's his 4th year in the league (3rd year playing 34+ MPG). The lack of improvement defensively (2nd year under defensive guru Casey) and 3pt shooting are real cause for concern. Scoring is the only thing he does, but even that is incredibly inefficient.

    When you factor in his raise to $9.5M starting next season, I don't understand how he can be viewed any differently than Bargnani was viewed the past few seasons (following his big raise). They're both one-dimensional, inefficient scorers, who have shown little improvement throughout the course of their careers.

    Yes DeRozan loves Toronto. Yes DeRozan works hard. Yes DeRozan shows emotion. Yes DeRozan is athletic. Yes DeRozan is still only 23. None of that matters. The only thing that matters is his on-court, in-game performance, which has been anything but "solid"; he's an inefficient volume scorer (and a redundant one at that, following the acquisition of Rudy Gay).

    This isn't "hatred of DeMar", it's unbiased, objective analysis of the stats.
    THANK YOU. I was about to get to the bargnani comparison yesterday but instead i went ADD and gave up mid post lol.
    the only difference is that bargnani has the talent, just doesnt try-derozan doesnt have all that talent, but trys hard. cant knock him for it but hes just not worth the money. His improvement in his mid range game almost has a negative effect because hes content with hitting those instead of driving to the hop as much as he could

  2. #2282
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think this is objective. Sometimes the truth hurts.

    One area Bargnani did have a leg up was creating mismatches with his size and skillset taking opposing teams bigs away from the rim. DeRozan is the opposite, put a smaller guy on DD and he posts up ala Luke Ridnour.

    I never thought of the comparison.

    One area they are definitely different: I know DeRozan cares. I'm not saying Bargnani doesn't but I can't say the same thing about him with any shred of confidence.
    If Bargnani didn't care, he would have played better this year; he was looking utterly depressed in my opinion. His lack of energy (even though it's in his character not to be too expressive anyway) reminded me of a burn-out.

    At the beginning of the year, after being annoyed by his contract, I was getting a bit more optimistic about him; I thought he was looking better in some parts of the game (like defense) and I started feeling less bad about the contract (thought it was maybe just 2-3 million too much instead of him being at or below the level of a replacement level players). But he kinda flattened out for me.

    Because of contracts and lack of (significant) progress, I think Bargnani is a good comparison, though I do think the Bargnani mistake is a much more alluring one because of the alluring idea of a good Bargnani which is a magnificent and almost unique offensive weapon. DeRozan much less so.

  3. #2283
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Is shooting three's supposed to be easy to develop? A guy who had no shooting range originally, is an effective mid-ranged shooter. The ball-handling has improved significantly in my opinion, though it still has much room to grow. The post game shocked me this season. He's obviously become physically stronger. He's obviously improved, whether it be statistics, or what you see by your eye. Demar is raw talent, it will take time close to a big man to see great significant improvements.

    If Bargnani had a work ethic of Derozan - or in your words, his "image" - would he be stuck, and labelled as a useless player being payed milllions to keep his oft-injured ass on the bench? I doubt it. Bargnani has made rare improvements.
    DeRozan has shot around 40% on long two-pointers for all of his career. In fact the only has a career high % this year in finishing at the rim. He hasn't improved his range. Source A solid midrange game was already one of his strengths when he was entered the draft and he hasn't expanded his shooting game.

    And yes, I think for someone who doesn't need to (re)learn how to shoot (I think he has always had a good form on his shot), learning to shoot threes is one of the easiest things in basketball; basically it's just repeating the same shot over and over again. It requires work ethic.

  4. #2284
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    DeRozan has shot around 40% on long two-pointers for all of his career. In fact the only has a career high % this year in finishing at the rim. He hasn't improved his range. Source A solid midrange game was already one of his strengths when he was entered the draft and he hasn't expanded his shooting game.

    And yes, I think for someone who doesn't need to (re)learn how to shoot (I think he has always had a good form on his shot), learning to shoot threes is one of the easiest things in basketball; basically it's just repeating the same shot over and over again. It requires work ethic.
    I hope this is a huge joke of a post. Learning 3s is the easiest thing in basketball? My god.

  5. #2285
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    In all honesty, I read this all the time, but I don't get it. If he works that hard, what is he working on? Because there really is no reason I can think of someone with his talent isn't able to learn to shoot threes; and that's just one example; too many of his weaknesses haven't been improved upon enough considering all these reports about him working hard. Personally I believe much of his workethic is just image.
    Work ethic does not necessarily translate to high bball IQ. I don't think he is the brightest player on the court.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  6. #2286
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    I hope this is a huge joke of a post. Learning 3s is the easiest thing in basketball? My god.
    I'm not much of a joker. I also didn't say 'the easiest thing in basketball' and added some prerequisites, such as already being able to shoot like DeRozan, meaning already being able to shoot long two's and expanding your range. You might not agree with me and think I'm stupid and you might be right, but do it while using your reading skills.

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  8. #2287
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    In all honesty, I read this all the time, but I don't get it. If he works that hard, what is he working on? Because there really is no reason I can think of someone with his talent isn't able to learn to shoot threes; and that's just one example; too many of his weaknesses haven't been improved upon enough considering all these reports about him working hard. Personally I believe much of his workethic is just image.
    Being a good 3 point shooter. Is about good mechanics and confidence. DeRozan lacks the last one. Do ppl remember last year when he was hitting threes like crazy at the beginning of the year and than fell off? He started out that year confident in his 3 point shot. After a while he just lost confident. Confidence has always been a problem with him. It's easily shattered. That's why he can never be a #1 option. He definitely be a solid #2. Ppl for get his top10 in free-throw made this year. His durability is actually remarkable when you think about it. The kid deserve some credit. He was a 9th overall pick. I think his already lived up to that. When think about it his only slightly over paid. My 2 million. He'll get better.

  9. #2288
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    Did DeMar DeRozan try to shame John Hollinger for predicting Toronto would win 33 games, only to put up a below-average PER for a team that will win no more than 34 games? (Yes.) #stillaclown

  10. #2289
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    - 4 year pro
    - making roughly $10M per season
    - one-dimensional scorer
    - inefficient volume scorer
    - poor defender
    - poor rebounder
    - little improvement shown

    Is this Bargnani from 3 years ago?

    Is this DeRozan from today?

    Or is it both of the above?! BINGO!


    I defended Bargnani for far too long, because I wanted to believe in his potential. I now see a similar player having the same excuses being made for him.

    The only differences I see are that DeRozan is an American player with a reputation for being a gym rat who expresses his love for Toronto. Who cares? Why the double-standard?

    I was wrong about Bargnani and I've learned from my mistake. I just think losing for so long has caused too many fans to set the bar too low for what we expect out of our Raptors players. We deserved better than Bargnani and we deserve better than DeRozan, especially as false franchise cornerstones.
    Wow, you know i have read alot of your posts on this forum and for the most part I agree with alot of your points. But I really think you are way off here, but not for the reasons you give. Seriously, if I was Demar Derozan I would kick you in the shins for comparing me to the likes of Andrea Bargnani. I agree that Demar has the characteristics you listed above, but that doesn't mean he should be put in the same category as Andrea.

    I know nothing of this double standard you speak of, but it appears to me that the only thing these guys actually have in common is their inability to live up to your unwarranted and lofty expectations. "franchise cornerstones"...lol, if you bought into that foolishness, then shame on you. I'll admit, Bargs showed potential in his first couple of years that could warrant it being thought that he could evolve into a important part of a franchise. Similar to the way many (myself included) talk about JV, albeit for very different reasons. But I have never, ever thought that Demar was or could be that type of player. Nor do I believe he has done anything in his career to suggest he could be that type of player. He was thrust into that role because he was one of the best options on a very poor club. And many thought (and it appears you were one of them) that he would rise up to the challenge and magically develop a 3pt shot, lock down defense, great ball movement and passing. But he didn't, and so you think that justifies comparing him to Bargs. That is a disservice to Demar.

    At least Derozan is a professional, who comes to work to play, and more often than not, play hard. The only time I see him lack effort on the court is when he is frustrated with the way the team plays, and can you blame him for that? The same cannot be said for Bargs, who shows absolutely no interest in getting better, or playing hard for this team. Bargs is a bum, and demar certainly is not. Demar, at the very least, has tried to fit in to the role he is given, while Bargs has pretty much given up.

    And I could also argue that Demar's inefficienies are more of a result of the teams inefficiencies than his own. IF he had a more appropriate role on a better TEAM, than we wouldn't be having this discussion. The way Demar gets to the freethrow line is evidence enough that he does not deserve to be compared to Bargs. Perhaps he hasn't improved much, or at all, but at least he hasn't regressed like Bargs.

    I'm sorry man, I understand your points and I feel your frustration. I want this team to succeed as much as you do. But we didn;t set the bar too low for these players, we set it too high. Neither Bargs nor DD could ever live up to the fans expectations. But DD is a solid player, who can't do the things most expect him too. I'm sorry Bargs disappointed you so much, but don't take it out on Demar, he deserves much better than to be put in the same class as Bargs.

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  12. #2290
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Wow, you know i have read alot of your posts on this forum and for the most part I agree with alot of your points. But I really think you are way off here, but not for the reasons you give. Seriously, if I was Demar Derozan I would kick you in the shins for comparing me to the likes of Andrea Bargnani. I agree that Demar has the characteristics you listed above, but that doesn't mean he should be put in the same category as Andrea.
    Andrea and Demar are in many ways polar opposites.

    From what they are capable of doing at their positions, work ethic, skill set etc.

    But they just take 2 different roads to get to the same destination. One dimensional, inefficienct scorers, who aren't good enough at their supposed strengths to compensate for their glaring weaknesses

    And I could also argue that Demar's inefficienies are more of a result of the teams inefficiencies than his own.
    Ironic enough given the discussion (Demar is not like Bargnani), a rational used to defend Bargnani on numerous occasions.

    Neither Bargs nor DD could ever live up to the fans expectations.
    These weren't fan created expectations, they are Colangelo/organizational created expectations. Fans didn't make Demar or Bargnani starters, core players, offer them 10 mil a year contracts or ask them to be high usage players.

  13. #2291
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    you guys got to calm down about the overpaid stuff because he doesn't even get paid 9.5m, he's getting 3m this season and starting that new contract extension with 9.5m a year next year, so wait till you see his improvements, then judge.

    you guys gotta believe in the kid that he'll step up, you know how much he wanted to make the playoffs this season and how much work he puts into it.

    next season is when you guys should be judging if anything, because thats when he actually gets paid 9.5m, NOT this season.

  14. #2292
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    Honestly, I don't think players should ever be judged on their contract. Players should be judged as an individual first, then in how they mesh with the team second. The only people you should hold accountable for contracts is team management. On the court, a Demar making $3 million a year is the same as a Demar $10 million a year. Likewise, you can fault for Rudy Gay for a lot of things, but being paid like a superstar is not one of them; that's all on the Grizzlies, and now the Raptors.

  15. #2293
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Honestly, I don't think players should ever be judged on their contract. Players should be judged as an individual first, then in how they mesh with the team second. The only people you should hold accountable for contracts is team management. On the court, a Demar making $3 million a year is the same as a Demar $10 million a year. Likewise, you can fault for Rudy Gay for a lot of things, but being paid like a superstar is not one of them; that's all on the Grizzlies, and now the Raptors.
    I agree with you.

    I also don't think you can judge people based on their appearance.

    Unfortunately, both happen all the time.



    Thats just the way it is.

    Some things will never change.

    Thats just the way it is.... oh yeah.



    Is that you Pac?
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  17. #2294
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Honestly, I don't think players should ever be judged on their contract. Players should be judged as an individual first, then in how they mesh with the team second. The only people you should hold accountable for contracts is team management. On the court, a Demar making $3 million a year is the same as a Demar $10 million a year. Likewise, you can fault for Rudy Gay for a lot of things, but being paid like a superstar is not one of them; that's all on the Grizzlies, and now the Raptors.
    Each and every team exists within the league rules of a salary cap, so a player salary matters. In fact it matters alot.

    While Demar holds zero fault for the contract he signed and Colangelo holds all of it. The effect on the team doesn't change.

  18. #2295
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Today, Demar made that contract look under-sized!
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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  20. #2296
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    BEAST! what was it about DeMar and Rudy not being able to click? they been clicking from the jump!

  21. #2297
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Andrea and Demar are in many ways polar opposites.

    From what they are capable of doing at their positions, work ethic, skill set etc.

    But they just take 2 different roads to get to the same destination. One dimensional, inefficienct scorers, who aren't good enough at their supposed strengths to compensate for their glaring weaknesses



    Ironic enough given the discussion (Demar is not like Bargnani), a rational used to defend Bargnani on numerous occasions.



    These weren't fan created expectations, they are Colangelo/organizational created expectations. Fans didn't make Demar or Bargnani starters, core players, offer them 10 mil a year contracts or ask them to be high usage players.
    I wouldn't use that rational to defend Bargs, I wouldn't use any rational to defend him because I wouldn't defend him. And perhaps Colangelo and the org. created those expectations, but that doesn't mean you, or me, as fans needed to buy into it.

  22. #2298
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't use that rational to defend Bargs, I wouldn't use any rational to defend him because I wouldn't defend him.
    I wasn't claiming that YOU used that argument to defend Bargnani. Rather that the same argument was used to defend Bargnani. Things like his teammates were stealing his rebounds, his teammates were so bad at offense Bargnani was getting double or triple teamed and shot a bad %, his defense only looked bad because Jose and Demar were pylons, he needed to take alot of long 2s or 3s because his teammates couldn't shoot and/or to open things up for his teammates etc.

    The reality is Demar is inefficient because of what he is capable of doing and how he does it.

    And perhaps Colangelo and the org. created those expectations, but that doesn't mean you, or me, as fans needed to buy into it
    So we shouldn't expect a starting/core player/10mil a year player to play like it? How do you seperate that from, what I assume is, a desire to see a team win?

    If John Lucas was given a max contract and became the teams franchise player while continuing to play the same way that would be acceptable? After all no one would expect him to live up to those lofty goals... so it would be fine. Right?

    Its not a matter of my personal expectations of Demar. Trust me when I say, much like Bargnani, my expectations of him are low. Real low. But he still exists as a key player on this team (minutes, $s, usage etc) and as such, if this team is going to win or go anywhere, he needs to play like it. Until that changes, ie his role is reduced or traded etc, it really doesn't matter if I or anyone else expects Demar to be a superstar or a complete zero. He has to play up to the usefulness and expectations of his role. He's not a trading card, he is a player. What he does (or does not do) impacts results.

    I'm a fan of this team, not its players aside from their function to this team. I could care less how much or little success anyone has except for how it does and will impact results.

    Sometimes I wonder if I'm rare in that belief.......

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  24. #2299
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    I really hope they work together in the off season, just constantly developing a 2 man game.. but that's not realistic.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Each and every team exists within the league rules of a salary cap, so a player salary matters. In fact it matters alot.

    While Demar holds zero fault for the contract he signed and Colangelo holds all of it. The effect on the team doesn't change.
    Of course, but my point is that one observation makes sense and one doesn't. It makes sense to say, "Demar will be paid $9.5 million next season? What was Colangelo thinking?" It doesn't make sense to say, "Demar will be paid $9.5 million next season? Why isn't he a top ten SG?" Not only does he have to make up for his own deficiencies, he has to make up for Colangelo's? You can't really expect him to play like a $10 million a year player just because he's paid like one; you should expect though that if he's not a $10 million a year player that he doesn't get paid like one.

    It's kind of a subtle difference, but the point is: yes, the effect on the team is the same, but you're holding the wrong party accountable.
    Last edited by TRX; Mon Apr 15th, 2013 at 11:55 AM.

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