View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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  • A

    1 1.49%
  • B

    18 26.87%
  • C

    40 59.70%
  • D

    8 11.94%
  • F

    0 0%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #2341
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Those stats are dreadful... and it's the thing he does best! His 3pt shooting is even worse. Such inefficient scoring! As long as Gay and DeRozan are part of the same starting unit, this team can only ever hope to win on the odd nights when both their shots are dropping...
    He is around the average for guards in the NBA shooting 50% or higher for a wing is reserved for elite players Cs and PFs. DeMar is a second option wing player thats actually average-good for his position.

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  3. #2342
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Well, you say that he is our scorer, but you also say that he can't take it to the hole and that shooting isn't his strength. You argue that he is basically a volume scorer and that's his role. If that's his role, there are plenty of players who can do that for far less money ... if you want that role at all (from a player who can't create).

    The difference with Bryant (besides the obvious difference in quality and defense) is that Bryant creates for himself and others, draws double teams and can (but doesn't always) pass out of them. Bryant also can help win games in other ways than scoring, something which DeRozan doesn't really show a lot.
    What you followed with the bold I would add his shot selection.

    DeMar's #1 most frequent shot is 16-24 (449attempts) feet with 0-8ft (401attempts) being #2, 8-16ft (261attempts) #3, and 24+ft (120attempts) #4.

    Kobe on the other had #1 most frequent shot is 0-8ft (518attempts) with 24+ft (401 attempts) #2, 16-24ft (378) #3, and 8-16ft (292) #4.

    Personally, I think this is a big difference that should be brought up in any comparison of Kobe to DeMar. It should also be noted that Kobe is hardly a proficient 3pt shooter either - just 33.6% on his career and not over 33% in his last 4 seasons (about 32%).

    But that 32% on 100 shots makes 96 points whereas DeMar's 41% on 16-24ft creates just 82 points. DeMar has to up that 16-24ft shooting percentage to 47% to equal Kobe's 32% on 3's. Also DeRozan was 155th in the league in percentage in this shot but the 2nd most attempts.


    This is depressing.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  5. #2343
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Well, you say that he is our scorer, but you also say that he can't take it to the hole and that shooting isn't his strength. You argue that he is basically a volume scorer and that's his role. If that's his role, there are plenty of players who can do that for far less money ... if you want that role at all (from a player who can't create).

    The difference with Bryant (besides the obvious difference in quality and defense) is that Bryant creates for himself and others, draws double teams and can (but doesn't always) pass out of them. Bryant also can help win games in other ways than scoring, something which DeRozan doesn't really show a lot.
    I didn't say he was our scorer, I said that's the role he was put into. Coming into this season, it was either him, Bargs, or Lowry. And I argued he could take it to the basket, which is why I looked up his FTA per game, not that he couldn't...you said that.

    Let me make myself clear. I'm not arguing Derozan is the guy (i.e, our go-to-scorer), nor am I arguing that he should be the guy or even have the chance to be the guy. But the fact is that BC gave him the extension and the opportunity to be the guy, and put him into that role. Whether he deserves it or not is debatable. I don't think he has what it takes to be that type of impact player. Nonetheless, he has accepted the role and has tried very hard to be that player and to live up to the expectations of that role and that extension. And he will continue to do so. I just don't think criticism is warranted simply because he doesn't have the skills or capability to fill that role. He should be commended for the attempt at over-achieving, because if he could do all the things everyone wants him to and have all the skills to make him an all-around SG and possible all-star, then he would be doing exactly that...over-achieving.

  6. #2344
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What you followed with the bold I would add his shot selection.

    DeMar's #1 most frequent shot is 16-24 (449attempts) feet with 0-8ft (401attempts) being #2, 8-16ft (261attempts) #3, and 24+ft (120attempts) #4.

    Kobe on the other had #1 most frequent shot is 0-8ft (518attempts) with 24+ft (401 attempts) #2, 16-24ft (378) #3, and 8-16ft (292) #4.

    Personally, I think this is a big difference that should be brought up in any comparison of Kobe to DeMar. It should also be noted that Kobe is hardly a proficient 3pt shooter either - just 33.6% on his career and not over 33% in his last 4 seasons (about 32%).

    But that 32% on 100 shots makes 96 points whereas DeMar's 41% on 16-24ft creates just 82 points. DeMar has to up that 16-24ft shooting percentage to 47% to equal Kobe's 32% on 3's. Also DeRozan was 155th in the league in percentage in this shot but the 2nd most attempts.


    This is depressing.
    Lol, I knew i shouldn't have used Kobe. I was just comparing their roles on their respective clubs to make a point. Your post actually supports my claims tho. Demar is not Kobe and never will be...I know this too and said as much in my post. My argument also suggested that Demar's low percentages are a result of poor team offense. Ultimately, because he is trying to be the main scorer on a poor offensive team, he takes some bad shots because there is no other option. He could easily let someone else take it, in which case his percentages would be better. It's the role he was put in, on a poor offensive team, that has resulted in low percentages and often poor shot selection. Very few, if any, other NBA teams would use Demar in this way and in those situations I'm sure there would be little to complain about.

  7. #2345
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Lol, I knew i shouldn't have used Kobe. I was just comparing their roles on their respective clubs to make a point. Your post actually supports my claims tho. Demar is not Kobe and never will be...I know this too and said as much in my post. My argument also suggested that Demar's low percentages are a result of poor team offense. Ultimately, because he is trying to be the main scorer on a poor offensive team, he takes some bad shots because there is no other option. He could easily let someone else take it, in which case his percentages would be better. It's the role he was put in, on a poor offensive team, that has resulted in low percentages and often poor shot selection. Very few, if any, other NBA teams would use Demar in this way and in those situations I'm sure there would be little to complain about.
    I don't think it does.

    While I agree the offense is dreadful in Toronto and geared towards maximizing the attempts of the most inefficient shot in basketball, DeRozan is still the player making the decision to take the shots.

    I actually think Kobe is a good example. Both are high volume shot taking shooting guards. The difference is Kobe typically takes a long two point shot at 1:2.5 ratio of layups/3's. DeMar on the other hand settles for the long two point at nearly a 1:1 ratio (1:1.16) compared to layups/3's.

    Just to be clear I do agree with you about the poor offense run by Toronto leading to these types of shots. But at the same time, fault lies with DeRozan for the decisions with the ball as well. 449 16-24ft shot attempts compared to 401 0-8ft tells me he is settling for the jumper.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #2346
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    So, about the dreadful stats, as per ESPN NBA for shooting guards:

    Demar DeRozan:

    1 of only 4 players to play all 82 games.
    4th in scoring @ 18.1 PPG behind only Wade, Harden and Kobe.
    4th in FGM per game @ 6.7
    5th in FGA per game @ 15.0
    3rd in MPG @ 36.7 and tied for 1st with Kobe for Total minutes @ 3013 minutes played
    8th in FG% @ 44.5 (not so bad)
    12th in FT% @ 83.1 but 3rd in makes and attempts (yes, he can get to the rim)
    13th in APG @ 2.5 and 16th in Total assists
    Tied for 13th with JTerry and Jamal Crawford in AST/TO ratio @ 1.35 (not bad, but probably turns the ball over too much) I think he ranked 28th worst in TOPG, so improvement there would be nice.
    16th in STPG @ 0.93
    13th in BPG @ 0.29
    9th in RPG @ 3.9

    13th in PPS @ 1.21. I think this is points per shot, so 13th is not too bad and puts him ahead of Iggy, J.R. Smith, Joe Johnson and Ben Gordon.

    21st in ADJFG% @ 45.9. This is where it may look bad, but both this stat and the one above (PPS) factor in the amount of points accrued per FGA, including 3pt of course. Demar shot around 28% from behind the arc.

    Conclusion: DeMar provided incredible value at ~3.34 mil this season.
    DeMar needs to improve his 3pt%. If his 3pt shot was 5% better, he would be right there with AA and TR and it would really increase his rankings for the rest of the shooting stats.
    DeMar needs to turn the ball over less.
    If DeMar were to improve these two aspects of his game, he would provide value @9.5mil/year.

    Now, if we take all that and put it into the context of how this Raptors team actually played ball this year, then it becomes even more apparent that Derozan isn't as bad as some of you want to believe. If he was in a position to take better shots more often via a better system, I'm sure he would improve in terms of FG%, PPS, and ADJFG%, and TO. This may not make up for his poor 3pt% however, so that is all on him, and if he can't improve that, then we have to find a way to utilize him without using the long range shot. DeRozan would work better in a team oriented offense. But if he is going to be one of the guys we go to in an ISO heavy offense, then he will constantly taking shots from areas he is least likely to make them becasue, well, most defenses aren't stupid.

    Anyways, his stats are far from AWFUL.

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  10. #2347
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't think it does.

    While I agree the offense is dreadful in Toronto and geared towards maximizing the attempts of the most inefficient shot in basketball, DeRozan is still the player making the decision to take the shots.

    I actually think Kobe is a good example. Both are high volume shot taking shooting guards. The difference is Kobe typically takes a long two point shot at 1:2.5 ratio of layups/3's. DeMar on the other hand settles for the long two point at nearly a 1:1 ratio (1:1.16) compared to layups/3's.

    Just to be clear I do agree with you about the poor offense run by Toronto leading to these types of shots. But at the same time, fault lies with DeRozan for the decisions with the ball as well. 449 16-24ft shot attempts compared to 401 0-8ft tells me he is settling for the jumper.
    ok, good points, and maybe you are right. I'm sure DeRozan is too blame for some of the poor shot selection, but I still believe its a combo of a bad offensive system and the fact that he is expected to be one of the guys that takes the bad shot when nothing else is available. But, 449 deep two's relative to 401 shots in the paint does say alot. If the clock is ticking, take it to the hole Demar!!

  11. #2348
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    So, about the dreadful stats, as per ESPN NBA for shooting guards:

    Demar DeRozan:

    1 of only 4 players to play all 82 games.
    4th in scoring @ 18.1 PPG behind only Wade, Harden and Kobe.
    4th in FGM per game @ 6.7
    5th in FGA per game @ 15.0
    3rd in MPG @ 36.7 and tied for 1st with Kobe for Total minutes @ 3013 minutes played
    8th in FG% @ 44.5 (not so bad)
    12th in FT% @ 83.1 but 3rd in makes and attempts (yes, he can get to the rim)
    13th in APG @ 2.5 and 16th in Total assists
    Tied for 13th with JTerry and Jamal Crawford in AST/TO ratio @ 1.35 (not bad, but probably turns the ball over too much) I think he ranked 28th worst in TOPG, so improvement there would be nice.
    16th in STPG @ 0.93
    13th in BPG @ 0.29
    9th in RPG @ 3.9

    13th in PPS @ 1.21. I think this is points per shot, so 13th is not too bad and puts him ahead of Iggy, J.R. Smith, Joe Johnson and Ben Gordon.

    21st in ADJFG% @ 45.9. This is where it may look bad, but both this stat and the one above (PPS) factor in the amount of points accrued per FGA, including 3pt of course. Demar shot around 28% from behind the arc.

    Conclusion: DeMar provided incredible value at ~3.34 mil this season.
    DeMar needs to improve his 3pt%. If his 3pt shot was 5% better, he would be right there with AA and TR and it would really increase his rankings for the rest of the shooting stats.
    DeMar needs to turn the ball over less.
    If DeMar were to improve these two aspects of his game, he would provide value @9.5mil/year.

    Now, if we take all that and put it into the context of how this Raptors team actually played ball this year, then it becomes even more apparent that Derozan isn't as bad as some of you want to believe. If he was in a position to take better shots more often via a better system, I'm sure he would improve in terms of FG%, PPS, and ADJFG%, and TO. This may not make up for his poor 3pt% however, so that is all on him, and if he can't improve that, then we have to find a way to utilize him without using the long range shot. DeRozan would work better in a team oriented offense. But if he is going to be one of the guys we go to in an ISO heavy offense, then he will constantly taking shots from areas he is least likely to make them becasue, well, most defenses aren't stupid.

    Anyways, his stats are far from AWFUL.
    I agree with you his stats are far from awful. The great thing about stats is you can paint them in a light to support any claim.

    What SoftEuro and myself have been discussing is efficiency. From theNBAGeek.com:

    category/Average/Demar

    eFG%/49.5/45.9
    TS%/53.7/52.3
    FGA/17.5/19.6 (per48 minutes)
    3ptFGA/6.1/1.9 (per48 minutes)

    I think SoftEuro's comment on the volume scorer is fair, in my opinion.

    Yes for DeMar's salary he is alright but next season is when the 9.5M kicks in and, based on his previous 4 seasons, there is no reason to think he will show exponential growth to make him a valuable piece at 9.5M.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #2349
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    So I was watching James Harden play last night...

    Guy took mostly threes, layups, or foul shots. A model for any SG...

    DeRozan should just watch everything he does.

    Save the mid range game for bigs trying to space the floor or late shot clock desperation moves

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  14. #2350
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    So I was watching James Harden play last night...

    Guy took mostly threes, layups, or foul shots. A model for any SG...

    DeRozan should just watch everything he does.

    Save the mid range game for bigs trying to space the floor or late shot clock desperation moves
    That's why I have a serious man crush (No homo - no disrespect intended) because he creates shots from 3, or to get to the rim.
    Obviously getting to the rim and free throw line are easy points, and higher percentage shots. Taking the 3 is obviously awarding the player with an extra.

    I defend DeMar, he is one of my favourite players on the team, has improved very well every season, he's done a great job in getting to the free throw line, solid post-game, play-making and rebounding has improved, has a terrific work ethic, but with his new physique, athletic ability, and obviously known as a slasher, this isn't an excuse on why he shouldn't just look to attack, regardless if he's not a threat from the outside.

    Improving the handle, getting stronger, and working on the ability to hit from outside will be the reasons why he is an all-star at any point in his career. The mid-ranged game is there, that should be the last of his priorities.

  15. #2351
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    So I was watching James Harden play last night...

    Guy took mostly threes, layups, or foul shots. A model for any SG...

    DeRozan should just watch everything he does.

    Save the mid range game for bigs trying to space the floor or late shot clock desperation moves
    The entire Rockets team plays that way. A major reflection of Morey and what he's trying to do with the team. 60 of their shots every game comes at the rim or from three, compared to 45 for the average team and they take the least 16-23 footers by far (8 less than the average team).

    Toronto's problem is they're 24th in the league in shooting percentage from 16-23 ft, but they take the 11th most from there (unadjusted for pace, but still). Rudy Gay in particular really should cut that out; he's shooting 4.3 a game at 30%.

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  17. #2352
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    The entire Rockets team plays that way. A major reflection of Morey and what he's trying to do with the team. 60 of their shots every game comes at the rim or from three, compared to 45 for the average team and they take the least 16-23 footers by far (8 less than the average team).

    Toronto's problem is they're 24th in the league in shooting percentage from 16-23 ft, but they take the 11th most from there (unadjusted for pace, but still). Rudy Gay in particular really should cut that out; he's shooting 4.3 a game at 30%.
    What the *&$% is Colangelo doing with all this advanced stats shit? I am all about advanced stats and glad to hear Raptors employ people and technology to try and get an edge. But clearly it is for show on the Raptors part. What a bloody joke.

    Clean house, Leiweke! Clean house!
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  19. #2353
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What the *&$% is Colangelo doing with all this advanced stats shit? I am all about advanced stats and glad to hear Raptors employ people and technology to try and get an edge. But clearly it is for show on the Raptors part. What a bloody joke.

    Clean house, Leiweke! Clean house!
    Please dont clean house..

    I think the fact that we are 11th most in taking the worst shots in the game is an offensive coaching problem, and a lack of chemistry in executing offensive sets.

    I would be very upset if we blew things up right now.
    Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Valancuinas with Amir, Ross should be our core moving forward. Young, talented as hell, and just need a chance to work together.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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  21. #2354
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    The Knicks played Raptor offense last night (isolation and long jumpshots), and it didn't work even though Melo/JR > Gay/Demar. I hope Casey was watching

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    The Knicks played Raptor offense last night (isolation and long jumpshots), and it didn't work even though Melo/JR > Gay/Demar. I hope Casey was watching
    Exactly, this is a coaching/execution issue, not a talent issue. Iso's and the long 2 (and some of both) should not be our offensive strategy.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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  24. #2356
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Please dont clean house..

    I think the fact that we are 11th most in taking the worst shots in the game is an offensive coaching problem, and a lack of chemistry in executing offensive sets.

    I would be very upset if we blew things up right now.
    Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Valancuinas with Amir, Ross should be our core moving forward. Young, talented as hell, and just need a chance to work together.
    Part of cleaning house is out with the coach.

    I crave new leadership in Toronto now.

    I would like a fresh mind determining the value players hold.

    Colangelo showed with Bargnani that he is not willing to cut his losses/maximize value or change his opinions/beliefs in a player until it is too late.

    I think he has too much invested in DD/Gay/Lowry to make an impartial decision. Combine that with the last 5 years of treading water (to be kind) or drowning (to be a little more realistic) and I want someone else calling the shots.

    Hey! Kahn is now available!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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  25. #2357
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Part of cleaning house is out with the coach.

    I crave new leadership in Toronto now.

    I would like a fresh mind determining the value players hold.

    Colangelo showed with Bargnani that he is not willing to cut his losses/maximize value or change his opinions/beliefs in a player until it is too late.

    I think he has too much invested in DD/Gay/Lowry to make an impartial decision. Combine that with the last 5 years of treading water (to be kind) or drowning (to be a little more realistic) and I want someone else calling the shots.

    Hey! Kahn is now available!
    Okay, I understand your point

    In my opinion Casey deserves another year to see what he can do (do to his first years success), but I see your point about Colengalo in the future being too personally attached to some players to make an impartial decision. I sort of agree with that point, and although I am one of Colengalos defenders, I think its a valid opinion to have.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    I think cleaning house now is a total mistake. Just allow them to expire, because keep in mind this is a very young, talented team already, and with internal improvements of Ross, DeMar, JV, Gay, Amir, Lowry, etc. they will only get better as a whole.

    Tweek the roster (meaning Bargnani, Anderson, Kleiza are gone), and bring in a new coach and general manager. A GM that will make better basketball and financial decisions combined, and a coach who is at the very least, solid at both ends of the floor. Not a good one on the defensive end, and abysmal on the offensive end. A well-rounded coach will do wonders.

    This team has a very good core, it's about those players improving, and solidifying the core by bringing in veterans, assets, and contributors to help the core grow, and to help the team succeed.

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    Whatever happens I think it would be wise to hold Casey as an ast coach imo that defense when the Raps choose to lock in is beautiful, Held opponents to less than 90 for 30 Ws is sweet.

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    Quote ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
    ... bring in ... a coach who is at the very least, solid at both ends of the floor. Not a good one on the defensive end, and abysmal on the offensive end. A well-rounded coach will do wonders.
    I don't think you have to have one coach be awesome at both ends of the court. I would be more interested in seeing what Toronto could do with better offensive-minded assistant coaches paired with Casey, who takes care of the defence. That's a lot more realistic, I think, than finding one guy who wants to come to Toronto. If he's out there and wants to come coach the Raptors, that's cool too, but it's not the only option.

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