View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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  • A

    1 1.49%
  • B

    18 26.87%
  • C

    40 59.70%
  • D

    8 11.94%
  • F

    0 0%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #2421
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    The ball is in Derozan's court. He better step it up this season.
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

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    Trade him
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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would like to say I'm surprised that you disagree with someone's perspective/opinion and attempt to discredit them as your post above so clearly illustrates but then I would clearly be lying.


    I'm not a big Tim W. fan for some of the very issues you highlight but his personality is not the focus. His findings and results are striking. They are not opinion on his part. He clearly states in the article that he thought DeRozan would be 10-15.


    I've said this numerous times and here goes again: stats are not the be all and end all. HOWEVER, stats are extremely useful for backing up the eye test. I'm not sure how when looking at an 82 game season one can come to the conclusion that DeRozan is anything more than an average scorer at best who settles for long 2s and is a mediocre defensive presence. It might not be what one wants to hear but the numbers and watching 82 games back it up. Sure there are five or six games where he put it all together. Sure there are specific plays where he drove ferociously and finished hard. Sure there are defensive stops where he held his man in check. But the reality is those are inconsistent events. I think DD gets so much praise is because his personality, work ethic, and love of Toronto over shadow his shortcomings in many Raptor fans eyes.


    The Raptors really are in a tough spot with DD as Tim's findings clearly suggest. I struggle to think of a team that would benefit from having him once you consider his skills combined with his limitations and the makeup of other teams rosters. You need a team that has a stretch 4, has a strong perimeter defender who will guard the other teams best perimeter player and can hit the three himself, and has a PG who will set him up on a silver platter. It is tough to come up with a possible trading partner. I encourage others to try.


    The only real possible hope Toronto has with DeRozan right now is hope itself. DD needs to be the major exception to the rule and significantly raise his game after 4 years in the league and near unlimited minutes/opportunity. I really, really hope he does it. If not I fear the next four years will be much like Jose Calderon's experience after signing his big extension.

    MU did not give DD that extension so there should be no love for him from the GM from that point of view specifically... so if a team was interested in DD then I can't see why MU would hold back if it improves the club going forward.

    With regards to teams wanting DD? Well his skillset may not be something managers are looking for exactly but he has a lot of qualities that are admirable: team first player, hard worker, young.

    Sacramento is a good example of a team that would most likely love to have someone like DD on their team especially since they lost out on both Evans and Iggy this summer. He may not add/create wins but he could be a 'good guy' on a dysfunctional team that wants to remain young.. and that could help (Thornton + 2nd for DD?).

    Detroit could also work.. pairing him up with Jennings make sense .. but Detroit has KCP. Perhaps instead of Gay we could try and trade DD to Detroit (Monroe and Stuckey for DD and Tyler? - would need to wait until Dec 15)

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would like to say I'm surprised that you disagree with someone's perspective/opinion and attempt to discredit them as your post above so clearly illustrates but then I would clearly be lying.


    I'm not a big Tim W. fan for some of the very issues you highlight but his personality is not the focus. His findings and results are striking. They are not opinion on his part. He clearly states in the article that he thought DeRozan would be 10-15.


    I've said this numerous times and here goes again: stats are not the be all and end all. HOWEVER, stats are extremely useful for backing up the eye test. I'm not sure how when looking at an 82 game season one can come to the conclusion that DeRozan is anything more than an average scorer at best who settles for long 2s and is a mediocre defensive presence. It might not be what one wants to hear but the numbers and watching 82 games back it up. Sure there are five or six games where he put it all together. Sure there are specific plays where he drove ferociously and finished hard. Sure there are defensive stops where he held his man in check. But the reality is those are inconsistent events. I think DD gets so much praise is because his personality, work ethic, and love of Toronto over shadow his shortcomings in many Raptor fans eyes.


    The Raptors really are in a tough spot with DD as Tim's findings clearly suggest. I struggle to think of a team that would benefit from having him once you consider his skills combined with his limitations and the makeup of other teams rosters. You need a team that has a stretch 4, has a strong perimeter defender who will guard the other teams best perimeter player and can hit the three himself, and has a PG who will set him up on a silver platter. It is tough to come up with a possible trading partner. I encourage others to try.


    The only real possible hope Toronto has with DeRozan right now is hope itself. DD needs to be the major exception to the rule and significantly raise his game after 4 years in the league and near unlimited minutes/opportunity. I really, really hope he does it. If not I fear the next four years will be much like Jose Calderon's experience after signing his big extension.
    First paragraph: I didn't mean to make his personality the "focus", but I can see where you might feel that. I should have kept that "what irks me the most" out of it. As far as whether you're surprised or not about me "disagreeing with someone's perspective/opinion", what's your point? Isn't that what discussion is about?

    Beyond that, I don't have illusions of DeMar currently being an elite SG, and appreciate the aspects of the game he has to improve upon to even be mentioned in that regard. If he had proven himself as such, his new contract (the one we haven't seen his value under yet) would be a lot higher than $9.5M for 4 years.

    As far as his value to this organization, perhaps I'm too heavily influenced by his character and work-ethic, but when it comes to ranking someone, I find Tim's number crunching analysis and "adding up of rankings" to be the equivalent of an accountant ranking computer programmers, working with different software, developing different systems, for different companies. Some of that stems from my general sense of the misguided application of statistics, but to take it further, I think it's totally senseless to be comparing bean counting, and ranking players based on it, when some of those players are starters, playing 36 minutes, and relied upon by their team to take 16 shots, vs players coming of the bench (playing against bench players), playing 26 minutes and taking 5-7 shots. It's like comparing pommes (apples) to pommes de terre (potatoes). Note: I mentioned a few more of my objections to this as "ItsAboutFun" in the comments of his post, and that's only the beginning of my points of how non-objective I feel that "ranking" is.

    As far as "They are not opinion on his part. He clearly states in the article that he thought DeRozan would be 10-15.", he's good at thinly (for some) veiling his intent with such statements. He's not dumb, and he is articulate, but I maintain that his opinions (as backed up by extensive writing, not a small veil here and there) are based on an accountant's view and an internet regurgitator's work. I'm very far from a genius, but after having read enough of his stuff, I could have told you what his "findings" were going to be before reading a word of that post.

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  7. #2425
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    MU did not give DD that extension so there should be no love for him from the GM from that point of view specifically... so if a team was interested in DD then I can't see why MU would hold back if it improves the club going forward.

    With regards to teams wanting DD? Well his skillset may not be something managers are looking for exactly but he has a lot of qualities that are admirable: team first player, hard worker, young.

    Sacramento is a good example of a team that would most likely love to have someone like DD on their team especially since they lost out on both Evans and Iggy this summer. He may not add/create wins but he could be a 'good guy' on a dysfunctional team that wants to remain young.. and that could help (Thornton + 2nd for DD?).

    Detroit could also work.. pairing him up with Jennings make sense .. but Detroit has KCP. Perhaps instead of Gay we could try and trade DD to Detroit (Monroe and Stuckey for DD and Tyler? - would need to wait until Dec 15)
    I think Sacramento would be good except they drafted Ben McLemore.

    Detroit would see some of the worse spacing ever! lol Only Jennings could hit outside 22 ft.

    I'm sure there are teams that want a guy like DD but DD himself is a tough sell unless he really performs this season.... at which point I'll happily say keep him.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #2426
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    First paragraph: I didn't mean to make his personality the "focus", but I can see where you might feel that. I should have kept that "what irks me the most" out of it. As far as whether you're surprised or not about me "disagreeing with someone's perspective/opinion", what's your point? Isn't that what discussion is about?

    Beyond that, I don't have illusions of DeMar currently being an elite SG, and appreciate the aspects of the game he has to improve upon to even be mentioned in that regard. If he had proven himself as such, his new contract (the one we haven't seen his value under yet) would be a lot higher than $9.5M for 4 years.

    As far as his value to this organization, perhaps I'm too heavily influenced by his character and work-ethic, but when it comes to ranking someone, I find Tim's number crunching analysis and "adding up of rankings" to be the equivalent of an accountant ranking computer programmers, working with different software, developing different systems, for different companies. Some of that stems from my general sense of the misguided application of statistics, but to take it further, I think it's totally senseless to be comparing bean counting, and ranking players based on it, when some of those players are starters, playing 36 minutes, and relied upon by their team to take 16 shots, vs players coming of the bench (playing against bench players), playing 26 minutes and taking 5-7 shots. It's like comparing pommes (apples) to pommes de terre (potatoes). Note: I mentioned a few more of my objections to this as "ItsAboutFun" in the comments of his post, and that's only the beginning of my points of how non-objective I feel that "ranking" is.

    As far as "They are not opinion on his part. He clearly states in the article that he thought DeRozan would be 10-15.", he's good at thinly (for some) veiling his intent with such statements. He's not dumb, and he is articulate, but I maintain that his opinions (as backed up by extensive writing, not a small veil here and there) are based on an accountant's view and an internet regurgitator's work. I'm very far from a genius, but after having read enough of his stuff, I could have told you what his "findings" were going to be before reading a word of that post.
    PER
    WS
    WS48
    WP
    WP48
    TS%
    3PT%
    DRR
    Stl Rate
    Blk Rate
    DRating
    DWS
    PPP
    Iso
    P&R BH
    Post up
    Spot up


    That is a pretty extensive list of statistics and covers many facets of the game.

    The rank of each of the 30 players was averaged to come up with the final 'standings'. There was not subjectivity in the end.


    Statistics are often pushed aside when they don't back one's opinion - so I get the bean counting dig. You do have a point though on different players role. The problem is DD is not great at his and does little else besides points. If anything what we've seen is DD is not a lead player. He is average at best. He has been given every opportunity to show differently.

    I don't think I can really add anything else that I have not already said before so I'll spare everyone.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  10. #2427
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    PER
    WS
    WS48
    WP
    WP48
    TS%
    3PT%
    DRR
    Stl Rate
    Blk Rate
    DRating
    DWS
    PPP
    Iso
    P&R BH
    Post up
    Spot up


    That is a pretty extensive list of statistics and covers many facets of the game.

    The rank of each of the 30 players was averaged to come up with the final 'standings'. There was not subjectivity in the end.


    Statistics are often pushed aside when they don't back one's opinion - so I get the bean counting dig. You do have a point though on different players role. The problem is DD is not great at his and does little else besides points. If anything what we've seen is DD is not a lead player. He is average at best. He has been given every opportunity to show differently.

    I don't think I can really add anything else that I have not already said before so I'll spare everyone.
    "Statistics are often pushed aside when they don't back one's opinion"

    Conversely, statistics are almost always used to push one's opinion, regardless of sometimes veiled "objectivity" disclaimers like "don't tell the whole story" like what Tim stated, which is then ignored in this "not subjectivity" ranking.

    "different players role. The problem is DD is not great at his"

    I know you wish to simplify the "role" thing into stat like factors such as score, rebound, defend, but you seem to miss my major point about roles, and their difficulty factors, being significantly different for a guy starting (against opponent starters), playing 36 minutes, the team needing him to make 16 shots, vs a guy playing 26 minutes off the bench (against opponent bench guys), taking 6,7 shots. I don't care how extensive the list of stats used is, grouping these two types of players in the same ranking "system" is still comparing pommes (apples) to pommes de terre (potatoes). Tim also admits that some stats (DRtg?) are heavily influenced by team DRtg, yet still uses it as part of his non-subjective ranking of individuals. Huh? It's this ranking system that you're actually cross-promoting into these forums, and saying it's not subjective? Really?

    "He has been given every opportunity to show differently."

    This is an oft repeated refrain of yours, usually accompanied by how many minutes he's played, but it does nothing to illuminate the validity, or not, of Tim's ranking according to stats. How about addressing my point about the direct influence upon the number crunching of different teams, different styles of play, different teammates, etc., which are factors that are totally ignored when ranking players by stats. To transcribe a couple of examples that I posted as comments on Tim's post:

    Paul Pierce. A likely HOFer, right?

    In his 3rd year..454 FG%, .383 3P%
    In his 4th year .442 FG%, .404 3P%
    In his 5th year .416 FG%, .302 3P%
    In his 6th year .402 FG%, .299 3P%

    See any big drops there? Those 2 terrible shooting years were Jim OBrien's 2nd year coaching, and half of 3rd year before he was canned. A new coach (Doc Rivers) the following year, and Pierce's stats shot back up to approx. his 3rd year's. What, a guy of Pierce's quality had not 1, but 2 "off years"? At a young age, that seems rather unlikely. Perhaps his team and the way it was being run had something to do with it?

    "Off years", yeah, Just like Tim W is saying about Afflalo. Some mysterious "off year malady",,,,,, or increased minutes, more responsibility, taking more shots, in a different system, with a different team. What's your guess?

    Another HOF example: Jason Kidd. In his last 2 years, 1st with Dallas, 2nd with Knicks. He plays almost the same minutes, all of his basic stats stay close to the same, but is AST average drops from 5.5 to 3.3. What? He suddenly lost the skill to assist, and it's the only skill he lost,,,,,,, or different team, different teammates, different system?

    There are many examples that could be cited, but the point is that every single one of this long list of stats used as "ranking" can, and are, skewed by the variables associated with different roles on different teams, playing different styles, etc.. I understand that these things are near impossible to quantify. I simply raise them to point out that there is nothing accurate about ranking players based on stats alone.

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  12. #2428
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    PER
    WS
    WS48
    WP
    WP48
    TS%
    3PT%
    DRR
    Stl Rate
    Blk Rate
    DRating
    DWS
    PPP
    Iso
    P&R BH
    Post up
    Spot up
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3_leaders.html

  13. #2429
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    People saying DeMar has to step it up etc etc will never be happy with whatever he brings to the table he could give out 1000 dollars to every fan at every game and score 40 ppg a nght on 60% shooting and ya'll would still be crying BS

    Just wait till the bloody season starts and just watch how he does all this nitpicking on stats is getting so goddam silly, I mean we all saw what he was playing with during his 3 year tenure as a Toronto Raptor.

  14. #2430
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    People saying DeMar has to step it up etc etc will never be happy with whatever he brings to the table he could give out 1000 dollars to every fan at every game and score 40 ppg a nght on 60% shooting and ya'll would still be crying BS

    Just wait till the bloody season starts and just watch how he does all this nitpicking on stats is getting so goddam silly, I mean we all saw what he was playing with during his 3 year tenure as a Toronto Raptor.
    That is a great contribution to the discussion.

    The nitpicking on stats is evidence of the failures, flaws and inconsistencies in his game. You clearly have not been reading the 'negative' comments. If he averaged 40ppg on 60% shooting he would be incredibly efficient and absolutely stellar at scoring. That would most definitely help cover his poor dribbling, creating, rebounding, and defense. But sadly the one thing he does is he just average to below average at it and everything else is inconsistent at best. That is the problem.

    Up until this point in his career if you think he is anything more than an average scorer who relies on long 2s with mediocre defence then you've only been watching the select 5-6 games per year he puts it all together or YouTube highlights.

    I've been very honest in my desires to be proven wrong. Hope and potential is something that has done nothing for anyone the last 5 years - from Bargnani to Obama.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Aug 12th, 2013 at 07:30 AM.

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    I'm not sure what this is suppose to mean.

    I assume I am being directed to the fact he is:

    19th in FG
    17th in FGA
    7th in FTM
    8th in FTA
    11th in Total Points
    17th in PPG
    17th in MPG


    To which I would reply:

    1) the totals are skewed by 36mpg and 82 games played.
    2) he was 225th in TS%
    3) he was 318th in eFG%
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think Sacramento would be good except they drafted Ben McLemore.

    Detroit would see some of the worse spacing ever! lol Only Jennings could hit outside 22 ft.

    I'm sure there are teams that want a guy like DD but DD himself is a tough sell unless he really performs this season.... at which point I'll happily say keep him.
    What kind of numbers would you find a good year for DeMar. Makes him worthy of his new contract.

  17. #2433
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    DeMar recently got help on the team when you are around better people you become more efficient. What's so hard to understand about that DeMar has been double and triple teamed for most of his career obviously his numbers won't look that impressive, every team that faced us knew "keep DeMar covered we win the game" Rudy Gay came in and a developing JV down low his numbers went up....Jesus Christ people DeMar is a great player to have and everyone's talking about him like he's goddam Hoffa.

  18. #2434
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    DeMar recently got help on the team when you are around better people you become more efficient. What's so hard to understand about that DeMar has been double and triple teamed for most of his career obviously his numbers won't look that impressive, every team that faced us knew "keep DeMar covered we win the game" Rudy Gay came in and a developing JV down low his numbers went up....Jesus Christ people DeMar is a great player to have and everyone's talking about him like he's goddam Hoffa.
    Chill dude.
    I love Demar, he's one of my favourite players.
    But for this team to succeed he needs to play the best ball he's ever played in his life.
    A player like him with his athleticism and strength and size at the shooting guard position can be a lot better than he is. He is definitely capable of it, he just needs to do it.
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

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  19. #2435
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    DeMar recently got help on the team when you are around better people you become more efficient. What's so hard to understand about that DeMar has been double and triple teamed for most of his career obviously his numbers won't look that impressive, every team that faced us knew "keep DeMar covered we win the game" Rudy Gay came in and a developing JV down low his numbers went up....Jesus Christ people DeMar is a great player to have and everyone's talking about him like he's goddam Hoffa.
    Bold one: Double and triple teams for most of his career? No. Playing against solid NBA perimeter defenders and team defensive systems/rotations while lacking the skills to exploit rotations? Yes.

    Bold two: You're still not reading.

    You do raise a good point about the presence of Gay but that just leads back to the duplicity in their skill sets.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  20. #2436
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure what this is suppose to mean.

    I assume I am being directed to the fact he is:

    19th in FG
    17th in FGA
    7th in FTM
    8th in FTA
    11th in Total Points
    17th in PPG
    17th in MPG


    To which I would reply:

    1) the totals are skewed by 36mpg and 82 games played.
    11th in total points last season "skewed" ...

    lol.

  21. #2437
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote phez wrote: View Post
    11th in total points last season "skewed" ...

    lol.
    You must fail to see how someone can have the 11th most points in the league yet are just 17th in points PER GAME.

    lol. <----- great cop out
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    What kind of numbers would you find a good year for DeMar. Makes him worthy of his new contract.
    Again, numbers are not the be all and end all but here are some basic averages offensively for NBA SG's last season compared to DD:

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids[]=318

    Then there are individual defensive stats.


    So considering the average NBA contract is about $5M and the median is about $2.5-$3M, I would be expecting average to better than average across most categories, weaker in a few, and exceptional in a few.

    Right now he is average to ever so slightly above average in less than half of his categories and below average in the rest.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #2439
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    Its all about the three....

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Its all about the three....
    ..... and D.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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