View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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  • A

    1 1.49%
  • B

    18 26.87%
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    40 59.70%
  • D

    8 11.94%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #2801
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I'm just curious, can we not love a player but also be able to accept that they have flaws and can still improve their game? Is that really such a crazy thing to do? God damnit, I don't get it.
    This is basically what the Bargnani debate came down to as well. By the end, it had very little to do with the player, and everything to do with the ridiculousness of the fans.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  3. #2802
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I'm just curious, can we not love a player but also be able to accept that they have flaws and can still improve their game? Is that really such a crazy thing to do? God damnit, I don't get it.
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion in an internet forum. Honesty is appreciated, rationality is debated, and personal attacks are always wrong. This isn't like a bar fight where it is important to respond in kind, only harder. In this media, you can just walk away, and all that happens is that you get acknowledged as one of the big boys.

    My suggestion is you ignore responses you consider overly emotional or irrational. At some point you can consider using the ignore feature. I can tell you from personal experience that then it is just like being inside a house and looking outside through the double insulated windows. You can see the weather vane spinning like mad, but the wind doesn't touch you

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  5. #2803
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Watch out, he might mock your avatar next! Oh, right...

    Maybe spend more time discussing topics and debating opinions, rather than continuing your quest of one-upsmanship against a particular poster. It's seriously getting old, especially given that he's blocked your posts already, in an attempt to put an end to this ongoing public feud. Pack up your personal vendetta as move on, please.
    There's always two sides to a coin. Just like the DeMar praises have been surrounded by an immediate jump to speak out of the other side of the mouth, the same can be said about this "feud". The proclamation of putting me on ignore is great politics, but I jumped back into this fray after getting a few backdoor insults thrown my way: comments when somebody quotes me on something that has nothing to do with him, while hiding behind the "ignore wall". Two sides, man, two sides.

  6. #2804
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    This is basically what the Bargnani debate came down to as well. By the end, it had very little to do with the player, and everything to do with the ridiculousness of the fans.
    I was guilty on both ends
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  8. #2805
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    #FREE

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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I'm just curious, can we not love a player but also be able to accept that they have flaws and can still improve their game? Is that really such a crazy thing to do? God damnit, I don't get it.
    I guess you didn't get my point that what's so irritating is that it's constant and unrelenting criticism of ONE player, at a time when the team is playing so great, and that one player is a huge part of that success. Whether last night's game, or the last 14 games, he is very far from the most flawed, yet the only topic DeMar's flaws. It's like an obsession, and I don't get THAT.

  11. #2807
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Every time I look at this thread I just see arguments after arguments about the same thing hahah I just even bother to post on this thread because someone is gonna force there opinion on me looool

  12. #2808
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote 4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    Every time I look at this thread I just see arguments after arguments about the same thing hahah I just even bother to post on this thread because someone is gonna force there opinion on me looool

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  14. #2809
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I guess you didn't get my point that what's so irritating is that it's constant and unrelenting criticism of ONE player, at a time when the team is playing so great, and that one player is a huge part of that success. Whether last night's game, or the last 14 games, he is very far from the most flawed, yet the only topic DeMar's flaws. It's like an obsession, and I don't get THAT.
    Think of it this way. Every thread topic is going to have 2 sides to the argument, regardless of whether the team is winning or losing.

    If a thread is discussing whether DeRozan belongs within the league's Top 5, doesn't it make sense that the discussion will involve both his strengths and weaknesses?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  16. #2810
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I guess you didn't get my point that what's so irritating is that it's constant and unrelenting criticism of ONE player, at a time when the team is playing so great, and that one player is a huge part of that success. Whether last night's game, or the last 14 games, he is very far from the most flawed, yet the only topic DeMar's flaws. It's like an obsession, and I don't get THAT.
    Isn't it natural for the team's primary player to garner the most attention, positive or negative? The face of the franchise is bound to have certain expectations heaped on them, fairly or unfairly, which only compounds the problem. Just ask Bosh or Bargnani how weaknesses become magnified when you become 'the guy', and strengths/improvements get overlooked because they're suddenly just expected.

    I don't think this phenomenon is isolated within the Raptors' fanbase, or even the NBA. That's just the nature of professional sports.

  17. #2811
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I'm just curious, can we not love a player but also be able to accept that they have flaws and can still improve their game? Is that really such a crazy thing to do? God damnit, I don't get it.
    Substitute "love" for like and I think you've got a really valid point. Love gets in to that fanatical state of mind so many get in to. But I can't throw stones, I love JV.... yet I still get recognize his post ups/seals are weak, he holds the ball too long after rebounds, he is too hestitant on his jumper, he slips far too many of his screens, his rotations - while getting better - are still often slow, etc.


    I also find the inability of some posters to be flexible in their views as circumstances change to be confusing. For example, wanting to keep DeRozan but change his role on the team. Why? How could someone who criticized his lack of defense and ability to stretch the floor want to now suddenly "talk out of the side of his mouth" and keep said player but in a 6th man role? A simple reason: Terrence Ross' emergence after Gay trade. Prior to the trade, Gay and DeRozan were duplicates. It was assumed by me that DeRozan could be easier to trade and return more value than Gay especially after Gay became the laughingstock of the league. So Gay gets traded and Ross gets a chance. Just 3 weeks ago the chatter was all "Ross is a bust!" Now not so much. He is the 3 and D player I felt the Raptors needed.... and guess what! Now they have him - hoo-ray! But a problem still remains: DeRozan is as inefficient as ever. Sure he will have his games where he is incredible (like versus Miami.... however sidenote: he is a jump shooter who becomes less effectives as the game goes on as evident by 9-11 start and 2-8 finish but I digress) but over an 82 game season and playoffs the averages are going to even out. Once those averages even out suddenly a primary scoring option getting just 1.15 PPS matters.... sorry. People want to split hairs, look at the exceptions, or make excuses why DeRozan will work as a number 1 option when there is little to nothing other than blind fanaticism that backs it up except finding highly efficient scoring options all around him (like Portland with Aldridge and then Lillard, Matthews, Batum, and Lopez). Now DeRozan would be an extremely expensive 6th man gunner of the bench at $9.5M - no doubt. But it is not unheard of. Manu made some serious coin in the same role in San Antonio.... and seriously if it is good enough for Manu, shouldn't it be good enough for DeRozan? Isn't winning what matters? Personally I think DeRozan's strengths are one of the easiest to replace in the league however he currently fits with team - and that is what matters. The chemistry and intangibles are there so why not look to keep him? Now maybe the movement to a 6th man role alters things.... who knows? But if the winning continues while he suffers, he can be replaced if he is not happy winning. If the losing returns while he suffers, well, another Gay-like trade might be in the Raptors future (not saying DeRozan is the Gay in this situation btw). If the winning continues and he thrives, you likely have a legit contender.


    Anyways..... whatever lol
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #2812
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    One thing everyone needs you understand is that in no way, shape or form Demar Derozan is not a #1 option on a contending team. The raptors management always had a problem of making players #1 options when they weren't ala Chris bosh, Andrea bargnani and the fan base believing that these guys were true #1 options

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Think of it this way. Every thread topic is going to have 2 sides to the argument, regardless of whether the team is winning or losing.

    If a thread is discussing whether DeRozan belongs within the league's Top 5, doesn't it make sense that the discussion will involve both his strengths and weaknesses?
    Yes, of course, but when there's 15 different threads talking of his strengths and weaknesses, and he's the only player in such discussions 95% of the time, it's a tad over the top. As an example that I've used, JV's poor rebounding, when he's the biggest guy on the floor, was a much bigger factor in that loss than a couple of shot selections from DeMar last night. Do you see any discussion about that? Naw, but there's several threads going on about DeMar's weaknesses/ranking/whatever. He's the ONLY one being broken down ALL the time. Some people still going on about him being one-dimensional even. Talking of any player's flaws isn't a problem. It's that it's a very overwhelming topic here, about 1 player, when the kid is playing great even. Sorry, I find it sad, and need to express my misgivings about.

  20. #2814
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    Lordy. Voila, but I must avoid the "vendetta", even though there's yet another backdoor jab/taunt in there.

  21. #2815
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Yes, of course, but when there's 15 different threads talking of his strengths and weaknesses, and he's the only player in such discussions 95% of the time, it's a tad over the top. As an example that I've used, JV's poor rebounding, when he's the biggest guy on the floor, was a much bigger factor in that loss than a couple of shot selections from DeMar last night. Do you see any discussion about that? Naw, but there's several threads going on about DeMar's weaknesses/ranking/whatever. He's the ONLY one being broken down ALL the time. Some people still going on about him being one-dimensional even. Talking of any player's flaws isn't a problem. It's that it's a very overwhelming topic here, about 1 player, when the kid is playing great even. Sorry, I find it sad, and need to express my misgivings about.
    Start a thread on JV's rebounding, then. It's an open forum.

    CRF mentioned it earlier: Derozan is currently the alpha dog on the Raptors -- he's going to necessarily take the bulk of any criticism, same way Bosh and Bargnani did in the past. If that's unpalatable to you, you're in for a rough ride -- until Toronto gets that still-missing elite player.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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  23. #2816
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I guess you didn't get my point that what's so irritating is that it's constant and unrelenting criticism of ONE player, at a time when the team is playing so great, and that one player is a huge part of that success. Whether last night's game, or the last 14 games, he is very far from the most flawed, yet the only topic DeMar's flaws. It's like an obsession, and I don't get THAT.
    I think it has to do with the fact that one of his worst flaws - shooting forced, contested jumpers - is maybe the easiest bad play to recognize in basketball, and therefore the easiest to criticize.

    And, given that both the position he plays and his spot at the top of the team's offensive pecking order tend to generate forced, contested jump shots - in addition to whatever forced, contested jumpers he may take that have nothing to do with either of the circumstances mentioned above - it makes him a ripe, easy target.

    FWIW, probably my main reservation of DeMar as a valuable NBA player was that he would always just disappear during important stretches in important games. The way he played at the end of that Indiana game though, was incredible. We'd never seen him do anything close to that, and of any growth that he's made this year, I'd say that that was by far the most important and impressive.

    And he carried it over to the first half of the Heat game. Played with a super confident, "I've got this" vibe that he's only ever shown in the Drew league before. He didn't shoot so well in the fourth, but when you have those freaking demonic Miami defenders tearing all over the court, you can't really blame the guy.

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  25. #2817
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Start a thread on JV's rebounding, then. It's an open forum.

    CRF mentioned it earlier: Derozan is currently the alpha dog on the Raptors -- he's going to necessarily take the bulk of any criticism, same way Bosh and Bargnani did in the past. If that's unpalatable to you, you're in for a rough ride -- until Toronto gets that still-missing elite player.
    But even an elite player is not likely to stem the criticism - not necessarily from me, I'm talking in general.

    Look at LeBron. It has only been the last two seasons when he finally won that his critics quieted. But even after his first championship there were still some. Now that he has 2 championships under his belt and he continues to evolve and become more efficient you barely hear a peep.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  27. #2818
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I guess you didn't get my point that what's so irritating is that it's constant and unrelenting criticism of ONE player, at a time when the team is playing so great, and that one player is a huge part of that success. Whether last night's game, or the last 14 games, he is very far from the most flawed, yet the only topic DeMar's flaws. It's like an obsession, and I don't get THAT.
    Because he's most fans favorite player on the team, he is the flashiest, the most noticeable on the court at times and is arguably the best player on the team. That is why he is focused on so much more.
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

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  28. #2819
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Start a thread on JV's rebounding, then. It's an open forum.

    CRF mentioned it earlier: Derozan is currently the alpha dog on the Raptors -- he's going to necessarily take the bulk of any criticism, same way Bosh and Bargnani did in the past. If that's unpalatable to you, you're in for a rough ride -- until Toronto gets that still-missing elite player.
    Won't be much of a thread. Most games this season he's been our biggest force on the glass. Even sometimes when his numbers aren't great, his mere presence makes it hard for the other team to really own the glass.

    And yeah, the DeMar discussion is what it is, largely because he's our default go-to guy. Still, as someone raised this point a bit earlier in this thread, he's surpassed my expectations given how raw he was as a prospect. He was completely raw with no real basketball skills when we drafted him. The fact that he didn't "bust" or end up a super-limited player is at least noteworthy, regardless of any criticisms people might have against him.

  29. #2820
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Won't be much of a thread. Most games this season he's been our biggest force on the glass. Even sometimes when his numbers aren't great, his mere presence makes it hard for the other team to really own the glass.

    And yeah, the DeMar discussion is what it is, largely because he's our default go-to guy. Still, as someone raised this point a bit earlier in this thread, he's surpassed my expectations given how raw he was as a prospect. He was completely raw with no real basketball skills when we drafted him. The fact that he didn't "bust" or end up a super-limited player is at least noteworthy, regardless of any criticisms people might have against him.
    Kudos again to his work ethic.
    This is also why I think he is analyzed so hard, we've all seen how far he has come as a player, I don't believe any reason why he can't become even better because he has showed he doesn't let anything really get in the way of his own development. He's played on some fuckin shitty Raptor teams and he has still just kept slowly working on his game and getting better every year. And this year he's exceeded a lot of expectations so far. So, it's very exciting to watch along with the rest of the team. There's just a few things he needs to work on still, that's all lol
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

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