Everything Derozan

[mcHAPPY]

Find me 1 player in DeRozan's range for usage, shot attempts and minutes played that is significantly more efficient and isn't a superstar. Just one.

Why bother?

That doesn't change the fact he is an average at best offensive player who settles for long 2s and is a mediocre at best defensive player.

That replied quote RIGHT THERE is the PERFECT example of the Raptor fan content with MEDIOCRITY and hoping for AVERAGE AT BEST. BOOM.

I'm not happy to settle. If you are, you've picked the right team to cheer for it would appear.

[mcHAPPY]

Omg you are my new favourite poster.

I think what people don't understand when looking at efficiency, is they try to compare guys who are forced to take a lot of shots and play a high volume game to role players. That's why you get people coming here and saying Danny Green is a better player than DeMar DeRozan. He only takes half the shots DeRozan has to, and most of them are wide open which is why he's so damn efficient.

The bigger your role in the offense, the more your efficiency is going to drop. This is a very simple concept (just look at Paul George's decreases in shooting efficiency as his role with Indiana increased). You can't compare players with usage ratings in the mid-20s like DeRozan to 3+D role players with usage ratings in the low-mid teens. I constantly see this crap about trading him for a 3+D player. Now you ask that guy to take 15 shots a game, good luck getting him to maintain his super-efficient percentages in that role.

You're missing some serious points here in your quest to defend DeRozan's honour.


#1 DeRozan doesn't have the skill set to be an efficient role player.

#2 DeRozan doesn't have the skill set to be an efficient go to scorer.

#3 Who is talking about trading DD for a 3+D player to take 15 shots per game? I believe people are talking about getting a player with a better skill set relative to his contract and/or getting a better player to mesh with the players currently under contract. Does DeRozan's skill set mesh well with a punch and kick Lowry? Nope. A similar Gay? Nope. A hustle and grunt Amir? Nope. A post up/screen roller JV? Nope.


Bold: You forget that offense is just 50% of the game and the other 50% is what wins championships.

[wallz]

#3 Who is talking about trading DD for a 3+D player to take 15 shots per game? I believe people are talking about getting a player with a better skill set relative to his contract and/or getting a better player to mesh with the players currently under contract. Does DeRozan's skill set mesh well with a punch and kick Lowry? Nope. A similar Gay? Nope. A hustle and grunt Amir? Nope. A post up/screen roller JV? Nope.


Bold: You forget that offense is just 50% of the game and the other 50% is what wins championships.

Bingo

[Xixak]

Why bother?

That doesn't change the fact he is an average at best offensive player who settles for long 2s and is a mediocre at best defensive player.

That replied quote RIGHT THERE is the PERFECT example of the Raptor fan content with MEDIOCRITY and hoping for AVERAGE AT BEST. BOOM.

I'm not happy to settle. If you are, you've picked the right team to cheer for it would appear.

Jesus Christ you are a douchebag. You didn't prove anything just type "BOOM" and try to overpower my argument with garbage lol.

You're missing some serious points here in your quest to defend DeRozan's honour.


#1 DeRozan doesn't have the skill set to be an efficient role player.

#2 DeRozan doesn't have the skill set to be an efficient go to scorer.

#3 Who is talking about trading DD for a 3+D player to take 15 shots per game? I believe people are talking about getting a player with a better skill set relative to his contract and/or getting a better player to mesh with the players currently under contract. Does DeRozan's skill set mesh well with a punch and kick Lowry? Nope. A similar Gay? Nope. A hustle and grunt Amir? Nope. A post up/screen roller JV? Nope.


Bold: You forget that offense is just 50% of the game and the other 50% is what wins championships.

Actually I have not forgotten that offense is just 50% of the game. In fact I am constantly reiterating that (this was one of the main reasons I pointed towards for Lowry being a top 10 PG).

DeRozan is the kind of shooting guard that would be extremely effective on a better team as the 3rd option. He doesn't need to be a go-to scorer or role player. He needs to be a secondary or even tertiary scoring option. Hence his 9.5M/year contract and not 15M/year contract that a real go-to scorer would have (see Harden). The only shooting guard better than him that's getting paid less is Manu Ginobili, and that's mostly because he's 36 with nowhere to go but down and also due to the mutual loyalty and respect between him and the Spurs.

Rip Hamilton was basically the exact same player DeRozan is right now when he won the championship.

17.6ppg
4.0apg
3.6rpg
45.5% FG
26.5% 3PT
86.8% FT
52% TS
16 PER
25% Usage

I think DeRozan's numbers have been posted enough times for you to be able to pick up on the fact that those 5th year numbers are almost exactly the same as DeRozan's numbers from last season. He was primarily used off ball, coming off screens for mid-range jumpers and attacking the rim and slashing. Not being asked to fucking isolate and try to break down defenders.

The salary cap was around 43M back then, and Rip made 6.5M so 15% of the salary cap. DeRozan currently makes 16.3% of the salary cap.

And aren't you the one who keeps saying we need to get rid of Lowry and Gay? So why do you care whether DeRozan meshes with them?

[mcHAPPY]

Jesus Christ you are a douchebag. You didn't prove anything just type "BOOM" and try to overpower my argument with garbage lol.



Actually I have not forgotten that offense is just 50% of the game. In fact I am constantly reiterating that (this was one of the main reasons I pointed towards for Lowry being a top 10 PG).

DeRozan is the kind of shooting guard that would be extremely effective on a better team as the 3rd option. He doesn't need to be a go-to scorer or role player. He needs to be a secondary or even tertiary scoring option. Hence his 9.5M/year contract and not 15M/year contract that a real go-to scorer would have (see Harden). The only shooting guard better than him that's getting paid less is Manu Ginobili, and that's mostly because he's 36 with nowhere to go but down and also due to the mutual loyalty and respect between him and the Spurs.

Rip Hamilton was basically the exact same player DeRozan is right now when he won the championship.

17.6ppg
4.0apg
3.6rpg
45.5% FG
26.5% 3PT
86.8% FT
52% T
16 PER
25% Usage

I think DeRozan's numbers have been posted enough times for you to be able to pick up on the fact that those 5th year numbers are almost exactly the same as DeRozan's numbers from last season. He was primarily used off ball, coming off screens for mid-range jumpers and attacking the rim and slashing. Not being asked to fucking isolate and try to break down defenders.

The salary cap was around 43M back then, and Rip made 6.5M so 15% of the salary cap. DeRozan currently makes 16.3% of the salary cap.

And aren't you the one who keeps saying we need to get rid of Lowry and Gay? So why do you care whether DeRozan meshes with them?

I've been called worse by better.... so there you go. But thanks anyways.

My BOOM showed you're a fan of mediocrity. You have done nothing to show DeRozan is not what I say: an average at best SG who settles for long 2s and is mediocre on defense. You are striving for a below average player to become average to a little above while making 2x the average player and over 3x the median. You are the classic Raptor fan which I myself was for many years.

You keep spinning whatever fantasies you need to convince yourself whatever about what DeRozan will become. I've been down this road. It doesn't end where you hope.

Bold 1: So? And? Where is the Raptors Billups? Prince? Wallace? Sheed? Brown?

Bold 2: I'm the one who is happy to go in whatever direction but would prefer to part with Lowry and Gay. Why do I care? Because the Raptors are screwed with DeRozan one way or another. If they tank, he's already shown he can't handle being the guy and does nothing to help the team now. If they compete, he doesn't mesh with the talent currently under contract.

[Xixak]

I've been called worse by better.... so there you go. But thanks anyways.

My BOOM showed you're a fan of mediocrity. You have done nothing to show DeRozan is not what I say: an average at best SG who settles for long 2s and is mediocre on defense. You are striving for a below average player to become average to a little above while making 2x the average player and over 3x the median. You are the classic Raptor fan which I myself was for many years.

What lol... can you explain how DeRozan is a below average SG?

You keep spinning whatever fantasies you need to convince yourself whatever about what DeRozan will become. I've been down this road. It doesn't end where you hope.

I didn't even talk about what he'll become, I spoke about what he is. Where the hell did I say I hope this road is going to end? Stop acting like I just started watching the Raptors you have no idea what my background is with the team, or how old I am.

Bold 1: So? And? Where is the Raptors Billups? Prince? Wallace? Sheed? Brown?

You say this every time a player comparison is made. Last time it was "Where's Hibbert, Granger, West?" We don't need to get the exact same players, we just need to build a good team.

Bold 2: I'm the one who is happy to go in whatever direction but would prefer to part with Lowry and Gay. Why do I care? Because the Raptors are screwed with DeRozan one way or another. If they tank, he's already shown he can't handle being the guy and does nothing to help the team now. If they compete, he doesn't mesh with the talent currently under contract.

This makes no sense whatsoever. If we want to tank and we make DeRozan the de-facto #1 option, since he "can't handle being the guy" doesn't that only help us lose more games? I thought the idea of tanking would be to get a legit #1 option anyway...

And I'm not sure how he doesn't mesh with our current talent. DeMar is supposed to be a primarily off-ball player. Coming off screens for jumpers, cutting and slashing to the rim for FTs and getting easy buckets from mismatches against smaller guards in the low post. You said it yourself that he's not supposed to be "the guy". No shit, anyone who thinks he is, is delusional. But to say he doesn't mesh with K-Lo and Gay is kind of silly considering how much his efficiency increased when defenses had to key in on Gay instead of him. Here are his stats since we acquired Gay and Lowry became a full-time starter (no source, someone from RealGM found them).

19.0 ppg (5.8 FTA, 45.3 FG%, 83.7 FT%, 31.3 3FG%)
53.7 TS%
24.6 USG%
101.4 ORtg/103.7 DRtg
2.8 apg
3.4 rpg

Compared to before the Gay trade (approximate because these are pre ASB #s)

17.6ppg (5.0 FTA, 43.5 FG%, 83.8 FT%, 27.7 3FG%)
51.4 TS%
(I can't find USG or O/DRtg)
2.3apg
4.2rpg


An increase in both volume AND efficiency because he was getting better looks.


Also:

Gay in Memphis:
PPG: 17.2
GP: 42
MIN: 36.5
FG%: .408
3PT%: .310
REB: 5.9
AST: 2.6
STL: 1.3
FT%: .776
PER: 14.1

Gay in Toronto:
TORONTO:
PPG: 19.5
GP: 32
MIN: 34.8
FG%: .425
3PT%: .336
REB: 6.3
AST: 2.9
STL: 1.8
FT%: .853
PER: 17.2

Improvement in every single statistic. I'm not suggesting that we have a championship team but to say DeRozan doesn't mesh so he needs to go is borderline idiotic.

[Xixak]

Btw I just want to point something out. Sort of unrelated, but if Minnesota and Portland get off to bad starts. I guarantee you they will be forced to move Love/Aldridge. Those are two guys who if acquired could take this team from fighting for 8th, to potentially a top 4 team in the conference.

And don't tell me those teams wouldn't consider deals based around Amir, Ross and a myriad of draft picks.

[Xixak]

I triple post too much, but one way the coaching staff can increase DeMar's effectiveness even more is to have him shoot more from the corner three. It's essentially the same distance as the long two he likes to take but worth 3 points. The Spurs do this with Kawhi Leonard. He is terrible at shooting 3s from every spot but the corner.

[tkfu]

Btw I just want to point something out. Sort of unrelated, but if Minnesota and Portland get off to bad starts. I guarantee you they will be forced to move Love/Aldridge. Those are two guys who if acquired could take this team from fighting for 8th, to potentially a top 4 team in the conference.

And don't tell me those teams wouldn't consider deals based around Amir, Ross and a myriad of draft picks.

Love would be an amazing complement for JV, Rudy, and DD--provides spacing and 3pt shooting, where our wings have weaknesses, and provides elite rebounding, which JV is not terrible at, but isn't great either. On the other side of the coin, his lack of athleticism on D would be offset by JV and hopefully an improvement on that end from DeMar.

I'm skeptical that a deal could actually get done...but then again I would've laughed at you if you had told me in June that the Knicks would give up Novak and 3 draft picks for Bargs, so maybe Masai has some magic to work.

[Nilanka]

Is there a rumour that Love would be shopped? If not, I'm not sure why we're assuming it'll happen following a slow start. He's signed until 2016 (although, I'd love....no pun intended....to see him here).

[Xixak]

Is there a rumour that Love would be shopped? If not, I'm not sure why we're assuming it'll happen following a slow start. He's signed until 2016 (although, I'd love....no pun intended....to see him here).

He has a player option in 2015-16, hoopshype is wrong.

[JimiCliff]

So? And? Where is the Raptors Billups? Prince? Wallace? Sheed? Brown?

What lol... can you explain how DeRozan is a below average SG?

You say this every time a player comparison is made. Last time it was "Where's Hibbert, Granger, West?" We don't need to get the exact same players, we just need to build a good team.

I agree with the principle of building a good team, and creating a system based around the strengths of core players as opposed to forcing a system upon them. I'll bet we all agree with this, at least to a certain degree.

Derozan, though, is a special case, because his skill-set is atypical for a worthwhile SG. Mainly in that he can't shoot 3s well, and he isn't a beast on defence. Worthwhile shooting guards generally have at least one of those qualities.

This makes Hamilton a good comparison, because he's one of the few SGs who played on a championship level team with a skill-set similar to DD. So it makes sense to look at what was around him in Detroit.

And the guy who really sticks out on that team for me was Rasheed. PF/Cs who can shoot 3s and defend the rim - qualities that directly made up for Hamilton's weaknesses - are incredibly rare. Almost non-existent. Could be that without those specific qualities that Sheed brought to the table, the Pistons wouldn't have reached anywhere near the levels they did.

Of course, it's more complicated than that. Ben Wallace was a really unique player, which adds another big, fat wrinkle to any analysis of what was going on with that Detroit team. But I think there's real merit to the idea that if you have a Hamilton/Derozan-esque player as your 2, having a stretch 4/5 who can block shots is essential. Which, as has been said before, would help to explain why BC insisted on hanging on to Bargnani.

[planetmars]

Btw I just want to point something out. Sort of unrelated, but if Minnesota and Portland get off to bad starts. I guarantee you they will be forced to move Love/Aldridge. Those are two guys who if acquired could take this team from fighting for 8th, to potentially a top 4 team in the conference.

And don't tell me those teams wouldn't consider deals based around Amir, Ross and a myriad of draft picks.

I see Love going to Cleveland or LA. Cleveland to play with Kyrie (and they have more picks/prospects than Toronto), or LA to play in a big market. LA is going to have boat loads of cap space and players "love" playing there. Plus he's from there.

Getting him to Toronto would be very difficult in my opinion. Aldridge as well.

And Top 4 would still be doubtful. Love hasn't done much in Minny and Aldridge hasn't really done much in Portland. You could look at Portland's roster for example and easily compare that to Toronto's.

Gay/Batum
DD/Matthews
Lowry/Lillard

.. and even with Aldridge they didn't get into the playoffs last year.

[mcHAPPY]

What lol... can you explain how DeRozan is a below average SG?



I didn't even talk about what he'll become, I spoke about what he is. Where the hell did I say I hope this road is going to end? Stop acting like I just started watching the Raptors you have no idea what my background is with the team, or how old I am.



You say this every time a player comparison is made. Last time it was "Where's Hibbert, Granger, West?" We don't need to get the exact same players, we just need to build a good team.



This makes no sense whatsoever. If we want to tank and we make DeRozan the de-facto #1 option, since he "can't handle being the guy" doesn't that only help us lose more games? I thought the idea of tanking would be to get a legit #1 option anyway...

And I'm not sure how he doesn't mesh with our current talent. DeMar is supposed to be a primarily off-ball player. Coming off screens for jumpers, cutting and slashing to the rim for FTs and getting easy buckets from mismatches against smaller guards in the low post. You said it yourself that he's not supposed to be "the guy". No shit, anyone who thinks he is, is delusional. But to say he doesn't mesh with K-Lo and Gay is kind of silly considering how much his efficiency increased when defenses had to key in on Gay instead of him. Here are his stats since we acquired Gay and Lowry became a full-time starter (no source, someone from RealGM found them).

19.0 ppg (5.8 FTA, 45.3 FG%, 83.7 FT%, 31.3 3FG%)
53.7 TS%
24.6 USG%
101.4 ORtg/103.7 DRtg
2.8 apg
3.4 rpg

Compared to before the Gay trade (approximate because these are pre ASB #s)

17.6ppg (5.0 FTA, 43.5 FG%, 83.8 FT%, 27.7 3FG%)
51.4 TS%
(I can't find USG or O/DRtg)
2.3apg
4.2rpg


An increase in both volume AND efficiency because he was getting better looks.


Also:

Gay in Memphis:
PPG: 17.2
GP: 42
MIN: 36.5
FG%: .408
3PT%: .310
REB: 5.9
AST: 2.6
STL: 1.3
FT%: .776
PER: 14.1

Gay in Toronto:
TORONTO:
PPG: 19.5
GP: 32
MIN: 34.8
FG%: .425
3PT%: .336
REB: 6.3
AST: 2.9
STL: 1.8
FT%: .853
PER: 17.2

Improvement in every single statistic. I'm not suggesting that we have a championship team but to say DeRozan doesn't mesh so he needs to go is borderline idiotic.

Circles. That is all this is. I'm tired of it. I bet others are too. We'll all see soon enough. I hope nothing but the best for DD but I'm not betting on it.

[Xixak]

I agree with the principle of building a good team, and creating a system based around the strengths of core players as opposed to forcing a system upon them. I'll bet we all agree with this, at least to a certain degree.

Derozan, though, is a special case, because his skill-set is atypical for a worthwhile SG. Mainly in that he can't shoot 3s well, and he isn't a beast on defence. Worthwhile shooting guards generally have at least one of those qualities.

This makes Hamilton a good comparison, because he's one of the few SGs who played on a championship level team with a skill-set similar to DD. So it makes sense to look at what was around him in Detroit.

And the guy who really sticks out on that team for me was Rasheed. PF/Cs who can shoot 3s and defend the rim - qualities that directly made up for Hamilton's weaknesses - are incredibly rare. Almost non-existent. Could be that without those specific qualities that Sheed brought to the table, the Pistons wouldn't have reached anywhere near the levels they did.

Of course, it's more complicated than that. Ben Wallace was a really unique player, which adds another big, fat wrinkle to any analysis of what was going on with that Detroit team. But I think there's real merit to the idea that if you have a Hamilton/Derozan-esque player as your 2, having a stretch 4/5 who can block shots is essential. Which, as has been said before, would help to explain why BC insisted on hanging on to Bargnani.

All I said is that current DeRozan and 03-04 Hamilton are basically the same player on the same contract (in proportion to the salary cap). This was in response to him being called a "below average player", which he clearly is not.