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  • JawsGT wrote: View Post
    I think DeRo is doing fantastic this season. I feel he has really matured as a scorer and playmaker and I expect him to get better. I also feel he isn't a bad #1. The bigger issue is that outside of Lowry, we have no other consistent scorer on this team. We have a #1 (maybe not the ideal #1), a #2 and then everyone else. When, or if, JV improves that 3 man combo would be pretty damn good I thinks.
    I agree that the complete lack of an inside post-up game hurts all the wings/guards, since teams just need to cutoff the lanes to keep them on the perimeter. We've seen it happen so many times where the team suffers if the 3pt shot isn't falling.

    If a legit post-up option was added and DeRozan was consistently more aggressive (ie: driving & posting up smaller defenders), then the offensive flow would be so vastly improved, with many more open looks for the team's better 3pt shooters (ie: Ross & Lowry).

    That's why it gets so frustrating watching DeRozan settle for long 2's voluntarily.

    Comment


    • stooley wrote: View Post
      Here's, I guess, my gripe with Demar.

      He's a great basketball player with all the talent in the world. Pretty shot, great athlete, hard worker, nice guy, etc.
      But I don't think those talents are used to their full extent to help the team win (as pointed out by Matt52), for whatever reason.

      So, I guess, we both agree on Demar.
      But we don't agree on his contribution to the Raptors.
      I think that with his talent, he should be doing more.
      No. Matt52 recited individual stats, which as naked as they are when discussing TEAM contribution, among other things, don't point out, in fact barely touch on, how his talents are helping the team. I know some have a hard time appreciating much about the game beyond numbers, but there's a lot more of both cause and effect of a player, than the numbers. He's a huge help to his team, and if he was getting more help, especially from the bigs, they'd be winning more.

      Comment


      • salmon wrote: View Post
        No. Matt52 recited individual stats, which as naked as they are when discussing TEAM contribution, among other things, don't point out, in fact barely touch on, how his talents are helping the team. I know some have a hard time appreciating much about the game beyond numbers, but there's a lot more of both cause and effect of a player, than the numbers. He's a huge help to his team, and if he was getting more help, especially from the bigs, they'd be winning more.
        There's more to team dynamics, it's true.
        But DD is a number one option. The intangibles that he provides would be similar to number ones on other teams: he attracts the best defenders, double teams and draws attention.
        So, assuming this is true up to a certain point, DD is still missing more baskets than he is making.
        Instead of taking those shots that are very hard (which I often see him do with no need), he should pass the ball or attempt to drive.
        He is not a good enough number 1 option for this team to be a contender.

        He may offer leadership and chemistry as well. But these traits are a lot easier to find than skilled players.
        You're taking the opposite side to the "ranking players by WS" posters by dismissing all stats. The healthy medium, like with all things, is in moderation.

        Now, since this all sounds very negative, I think that DD has the talent to improve, and the talent to be a 1a, or maybe even a 1 on a team like the '05 Pistons.
        Last edited by stooley; Mon Feb 10, 2014, 04:30 PM.
        "Bruno?
        Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
        He's terrible."

        -Superjudge, 7/23

        Hope you're wrong.

        Comment


        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          DeMar has made strides in his game, no question. But OVERALL his scoring is not one of them. Sure he has increased his corner 3 percentage - awesome! I think he should be taking more of those anyways - makes sense, they are approximately the distance of many of his long 2s above the break anyways and they often come as a result of ball reversals/movement/drive&kick resulting in wide open, uncontested looks.

          HOWEVER, in the age of analytics and advanced stats, lets look at an oldie: FG%. He is shooting 42.7% on the year, that is down 1.8% over last season and just .005 above his dreadful 3rd year. The biggest gripe I have with this is his field goal attempts are actually up 3.2 per game over last year. But you have to take the good with the bad and the good is his free throw attempts are up 2.1 attempts per game. So at least one of those extra 3.2 shots is a drive

          When looking at his shooting percentages, basic and advanced for 2013-14:

          (DeRozan--------Average NBA SG)

          Field goal percentage 42.7%----------- 42.8%
          Two point percentage 44.9%----------- 46.2%
          Three point fg percentage 31.5%----------- 36.7%
          Free throw percentage 79.7%----------- 79.5%
          E field goal percentage 45.3%----------- 49.3%
          True shooting 52.1%----------- 53.7%

          Field goal attempts 23.1-----------17.7
          Three point fg attempts 3.9-----------6.2
          Free throw attempts 9.3-----------4.7


          Compare above to 2012-13:

          (DeRozan--------Average NBA SG)

          Field goal percentage 44.5%----------- 43.0%
          Two point percentage 46.3%----------- 46.8%
          Three point fg percentage 28.3%----------- 35.9%
          Free throw percentage 83.1%----------- 79.7%
          E field goal percentage 45.9%----------- 49.2%
          True shooting 52.3%----------- 53.4%

          Field goal attempts 19.6-----------17.1
          Three point fg attempts 1.9-----------6.0
          Free throw attempts 6.8-----------4.3


          So while so many point out the improvements in the weaker parts of his game, there is little mention of the deterioration in the historically stronger parts of his game.



          Now look at the type of shots he is taking this season:

          (Distance------attempted-----conversion-----% of total shots)

          Less Than 8 ft.------236-----55.1%----- 27.1%
          8-16 ft.------188-----41.5%-----21.6%
          16-24 ft.------302-----39.1%----- 34.6%
          24+ ft.------146-----31.5%-----16.7%

          Now 2012-13:

          (Distance------attempted-----conversion-----% of total shots)

          Less Than 8 ft.----- 401----- 56.1%-----32.6%
          8-16 ft.----- 261----- 39.5%----- 21.2%
          16-24 ft.----- 449----- 41.4%----- 36.5%
          24+ ft.----- 120----- 28.3%-----9.7%

          What I find interesting looking at this is he is taking less shots at the rim (<8ft) yet he has increased his FTA substantially. Also, despite lowering number of long 2s it is still the #1 shot attempt he takes and it is being made at 2.3% less per game. Now I have no issue with a long 2, wide open. The problem is the dribble, dribble, dribble pull up with a hand in your face with 14 seconds on the shot clock or the settling for such a shot in an ISO situation with time winding down.


          My biggest frustration is the lack of consistency in his game. I think that falls more on Casey and the coaches though... or maybe it is other coaches taking opportunities away. We know his corner 3 has improved, we know his post game is improved so why aren't we seeing it consistently? I remember through the first 15 games so many celebrating shooting 40% from 3pt. He has always shown stretches but consistency not so much.



          Anyways, I'm off the "he is what he is" as he has certainly added to his game this year. I even hesitate to call him one dimensional at this point. However he still is first and foremost a scorer and when it comes to that the statistics still show him to be a volume scorer and an inefficient one at that. However the good news is his points per shot is slowly rising. He is now up to 1.22 points per shot.... which is better than the 1.15 he was rocking a short time ago.
          "The biggest gripe I have with this is his field goal attempts are actually up 3.2 per game over last year."

          Why is that a gripe, unless it's a gripe that the team could use another 1 or 2 guys that can carry more load? It certainly shouldn't be a gripe directed at him, as he's the undisputed #1 option for the first time in his career, and unless someone other than Lowry is capable of carrying more load, he's quite naturally going to be a bigger part of the offense than last year, raising his shot attempts.

          "(DeRozan--------Average NBA SG)"

          I'm not sure that there could be a more biased/tainted analysis of a guy's numbers than this.
          -How many of these SGs are bench guys? The circumstances/defenses, both individually and team, these guys face when they step on the court are so different, comparing their numbers is only relevent to supporting a biased narrative.
          -Even amongst starters, how many of those starters are the #1 option on their team, and against every team in the league, face their best perimeter defender AND get constantly double teamed on top of that? DeMar is one of only 2-3(?) in the league that fit that scenario.
          -The most appropriate "comparison" against the "Average NBA SG" is how many face the responsibilities, and defenses (you know, the things NBA coaches target) that DeMar does?

          That he's producing what he does, considering he's one of less than a handful of SGs that face the focus that he does, is why he's an All-Star, not that his percentages are below the "Average NBA SG".

          "there is little mention of the deterioration in the historically stronger parts of his game."

          Perhaps because there is absolutely no deterioration in any part of his game. NONE, unless one's total view of the game is numbers. It really doesn't take a basketball genius to see that every single part of his game has improved this year. Why a fan of the team is determined to use naked numbers to "prove" otherwise is beyond me, but I guess enjoyment comes in different flavours, some of which I find distasteful. Just my taste/opinion.

          "My biggest frustration is the lack of consistency in his game. I think that falls more on Casey and the coaches though... or maybe it is other coaches taking opportunities away. We know his corner 3 has improved, we know his post game is improved so why aren't we seeing it consistently?

          There we go!! Acknowledgement that the offense around him, and the defenses he faces, can seriously affect his performance and consistency. Aside from no player being a robot that can be consistent all the time, when a player is so much the focus of every defense, and those defensive decisions about what to give/take away vary from game to game, where he's getting his shots are going to vary from game to game, and his effectiveness is going to vary. Pretty natural shit, that naked numbers don't account for. Perhaps the inconsistency in his shooting positions are indicative that he's consistent in adjusting his game to try and take what the defense allows?

          Comment


          • salmon wrote: View Post
            "The biggest gripe I have with this is his field goal attempts are actually up 3.2 per game over last year."

            Why is that a gripe, unless it's a gripe that the team could use another 1 or 2 guys that can carry more load? It certainly shouldn't be a gripe directed at him, as he's the undisputed #1 option for the first time in his career, and unless someone other than Lowry is capable of carrying more load, he's quite naturally going to be a bigger part of the offense than last year, raising his shot attempts.

            "(DeRozan--------Average NBA SG)"

            I'm not sure that there could be a more biased/tainted analysis of a guy's numbers than this.
            -How many of these SGs are bench guys? The circumstances/defenses, both individually and team, these guys face when they step on the court are so different, comparing their numbers is only relevent to supporting a biased narrative.
            -Even amongst starters, how many of those starters are the #1 option on their team, and against every team in the league, face their best perimeter defender AND get constantly double teamed on top of that? DeMar is one of only 2-3(?) in the league that fit that scenario.
            -The most appropriate "comparison" against the "Average NBA SG" is how many face the responsibilities, and defenses (you know, the things NBA coaches target) that DeMar does?

            That he's producing what he does, considering he's one of less than a handful of SGs that face the focus that he does, is why he's an All-Star, not that his percentages are below the "Average NBA SG".

            "there is little mention of the deterioration in the historically stronger parts of his game."

            Perhaps because there is absolutely no deterioration in any part of his game. NONE, unless one's total view of the game is numbers. It really doesn't take a basketball genius to see that every single part of his game has improved this year. Why a fan of the team is determined to use naked numbers to "prove" otherwise is beyond me, but I guess enjoyment comes in different flavours, some of which I find distasteful. Just my taste/opinion.

            "My biggest frustration is the lack of consistency in his game. I think that falls more on Casey and the coaches though... or maybe it is other coaches taking opportunities away. We know his corner 3 has improved, we know his post game is improved so why aren't we seeing it consistently?

            There we go!! Acknowledgement that the offense around him, and the defenses he faces, can seriously affect his performance and consistency. Aside from no player being a robot that can be consistent all the time, when a player is so much the focus of every defense, and those defensive decisions about what to give/take away vary from game to game, where he's getting his shots are going to vary from game to game, and his effectiveness is going to vary. Pretty natural shit, that naked numbers don't account for. Perhaps the inconsistency in his shooting positions are indicative that he's consistent in adjusting his game to try and take what the defense allows?
            While your approach was aggressive, insulting and heavy handed, I basically agree with a lot of what you're saying. The comparison between DD and other SGs is definitely flawed. Perhaps a better comparison would be to perimeter players (PG, SG, SF) on other teams who are the number one option. Maybe exclude PGs that are arbitrarily determined as "pass first" to get a better idea of how he compares to other players who fill his role.
            "Bruno?
            Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
            He's terrible."

            -Superjudge, 7/23

            Hope you're wrong.

            Comment


            • stooley wrote: View Post
              There's more to team dynamics, it's true.
              But DD is a number one option. The intangibles that he provides would be similar to number ones on other teams: he attracts the best defenders, double teams and draws attention.
              So, assuming this is true up to a certain point, DD is still missing more baskets than he is making.
              Instead of taking those shots that are very hard (which I often see him do with no need), he should pass the ball or attempt to drive.
              He is not a good enough number 1 option for this team to be a contender.

              He may offer leadership and chemistry as well. But these traits are a lot easier to find than skilled players.
              You're taking the opposite side to the "ranking players by WS" posters by dismissing all stats. The healthy medium, like with all things, is in moderation.

              Now, since this all sounds very negative, I think that DD has the talent to improve, and the talent to be a 1a, or maybe even a 1 on a team like the '05 Pistons.
              Not dismissing stats, but the way they get manipulated, and what opinions/conclusions are drawn from them.

              Comment


              • stooley wrote: View Post
                While your approach was aggressive, insulting and heavy handed, I basically agree with a lot of what you're saying. The comparison between DD and other SGs is definitely flawed. Perhaps a better comparison would be to perimeter players (PG, SG, SF) on other teams who are the number one option. Maybe exclude PGs that are arbitrarily determined as "pass first" to get a better idea of how he compares to other players who fill his role.
                I'm sad I missed the aggressiveness, insulting, and heavy hands.

                I appreciate the gains in DeRozan's game. I said in my post he certainly proved me wrong with the "he is what he is" and no longer being one dimensional.... or at least it is very debatable now to which I would not be able to argue. The eye test certainly backs up gains in other areas but the eye test still confirms he is a volume shooter who takes a lot of bad shots; if the shots are falling - look out! - but most games they don't. Luckily he is no longer an eye sore on the glass, passing, or on defense. Some people aren't happy unless you join them on your knees with the praise. Oh well.

                Might be interesting to compare DeRozan's efficiency and contributions in other areas to other All-Star SGs (except JJ lol).

                Comment


                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  I'm sad I missed the aggressiveness, insulting, and heavy hands.

                  I appreciate the gains in DeRozan's game. I said in my post he certainly proved me wrong with the "he is what he is" and no longer being one dimensional.... or at least it is very debatable now to which I would not be able to argue. The eye test certainly backs up gains in other areas but the eye test still confirms he is a volume shooter who takes a lot of bad shots; if the shots are falling - look out! - but most games they don't. Luckily he is no longer an eye sore on the glass, passing, or on defense. Some people aren't happy unless you join them on your knees with the praise. Oh well.

                  Might be interesting to compare DeRozan's efficiency and contributions in other areas to other All-Star SGs (except JJ lol).
                  I agree with that assessment of his game.

                  But when you're comparing his shooting statistics to Klay Thompson's, we're ignoring that the raptors would probably (maybe?) be worse with Thompson. Klay Thompson clearly benefits from playing next to Steph Curry.

                  I think when talking about rotation players filling in the "top option" role, assessing how their game would translate is akin to determining how a college player's game will translate to the NBA.... to a certain degree.
                  "Bruno?
                  Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                  He's terrible."

                  -Superjudge, 7/23

                  Hope you're wrong.

                  Comment


                  • stooley wrote: View Post
                    I agree with that assessment of his game.

                    But when you're comparing his shooting statistics to Klay Thompson's, we're ignoring that the raptors would probably (maybe?) be worse with Thompson. Klay Thompson clearly benefits from playing next to Steph Curry.

                    I think when talking about rotation players filling in the "top option" role, assessing how their game would translate is akin to determining how a college player's game will translate to the NBA.... to a certain degree.
                    That is fair... very fair.

                    Situation plays a huge factor with players.

                    Keep in mind the stats I compared DD to earlier were average NBA SGs as determined by boxscoregeeks.com. (actually I should have given them credit and the second set of stats was stats.nba.com).

                    Comment


                    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      I'm sad I missed the aggressiveness, insulting, and heavy hands.

                      I appreciate the gains in DeRozan's game. I said in my post he certainly proved me wrong with the "he is what he is" and no longer being one dimensional.... or at least it is very debatable now to which I would not be able to argue. The eye test certainly backs up gains in other areas but the eye test still confirms he is a volume shooter who takes a lot of bad shots; if the shots are falling - look out! - but most games they don't. Luckily he is no longer an eye sore on the glass, passing, or on defense. Some people aren't happy unless you join them on your knees with the praise. Oh well.

                      Might be interesting to compare DeRozan's efficiency and contributions in other areas to other All-Star SGs (except JJ lol).
                      I don't really want to take part in this discussion...which is again very similar to discussions about DeMar for the past 2 years.

                      But damn it I still can't believe the JJ all-star selection. That's just awful. I don't know if I've ever seen such an undeserving all-star. So appalling.

                      Comment


                      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        I don't really want to take part in this discussion...which is again very similar to discussions about DeMar for the past 2 years.

                        But damn it I still can't believe the JJ all-star selection. That's just awful. I don't know if I've ever seen such an undeserving all-star. So appalling.
                        Bold: I don't blame you and I'm a little pissed at myself.

                        Non-bold: still a head scratcher for me.

                        Comment


                        • JawsGT wrote: View Post
                          I think DeRo is doing fantastic this season. I feel he has really matured as a scorer and playmaker and I expect him to get better. I also feel he isn't a bad #1. The bigger issue is that outside of Lowry, we have no other consistent scorer on this team. We have a #1 (maybe not the ideal #1), a #2 and then everyone else. When, or if, JV improves that 3 man combo would be pretty damn good I thinks.
                          For this reason I feel like a lot of the teams improvement hinges on Ross' improvement. They need to invest time and effort on excelerating Terrence's development.

                          Comment


                          • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                            For this reason I feel like a lot of the teams improvement hinges on Ross' improvement. They need to invest time and effort on excelerating Terrence's development.
                            JV! JV needs to develop! we need him to score down low.
                            "Bruno?
                            Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                            He's terrible."

                            -Superjudge, 7/23

                            Hope you're wrong.

                            Comment


                            • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                              For this reason I feel like a lot of the teams improvement hinges on Ross' improvement. They need to invest time and effort on excelerating Terrence's development.
                              This immediately came to mind

                              Comment


                              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                Bold: I don't blame you and I'm a little pissed at myself.

                                Non-bold: still a head scratcher for me.
                                And I don't blame you...It's just exhausting. A neverending loop of the same debate.

                                And yeah...A headscratcher to say the least. If I were a cartoon character, his selection would be one of those eye-popping moments where they don't retract back into their sockets....

                                Comment

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