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  • I couldn't agree more with both Matt52 and Craig. You both make great points. Demar definitely needs to calm down on the amount BAD long twos he takes, because he does take some good ones as well. If he was more efficient he would be All NBA. But that's the thing. ALL NBA is on the Lebron and Durant level and he isn't getting paid like that. No player is perfect except for those guys and his flaw is the long two. I wouldn't fault him so hard for that. I also think some of that blame goes to the coach. It's how he's being used. If we had a really good offensive coach I bet you he would get better shots in the offense and look better. Look how bad Rudy looked here and how good he looks on Sac. A good bit of that was on Rudy but I also don't think Casey used him correctly. I remember when Jay Triano was here I loved the way Demar was being used at the time. He took a lot of long twos but it was the good kind. Jay is a really good offensive coach. If we still had Jay here as an assistant we would be so much better offensively I feel.
    I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

    Comment


    • I don't believe there is any such thing as a "good long two". If your offence is taking a long two, it should be because the defence bested you on the possession and you are running out of time on the shot clock.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
        No one, absolutely no one question DeRozan's improvements over his 5 years in the league. No one....
        If I could have liked this post twice, I would have.

        Comment


        • Axel wrote: View Post
          I wonder what we'll all talk about if Demar ever gets traded or signs elsewhere....
          We'll start a love/hate fest on Jonas, and then Ross after that. That's what Toronto sports 'fans' do.

          Comment


          • GLF wrote: View Post
            THANK YOU! That's the thing with the people who always bring up stats. Yes they are accurate and I don't completely dismiss it but the only people who put up the kind of stats they seem to want are the Lebron James or Kevin Durant's of the world. Or they're 5th options in the starting line up or bench players who aren't the focus on offense so they get open look after open look. I would really like them to find me someone who is making the kind of money Demar is and is soooo efficient that we can get. For them it's either superstar calibre player or nothing. I just think expecting Demar to be some ultra efficient player when he's the number 1 option and other than Lowry there is NO one else who can create for themselves not even a little bit you are asking for a little too much. But I guess that's just me.
            I didn't forget about this!

            As I said previously I thought this was a great post - no sarcasm.

            Now I'm not sure who we can get. But there are players out there who are primary scoring options (I would consider DeRozan and Lowry to be primary scoring options for Toronto) and are efficient (not sure about the sooooo part lol) while making similar to money (within $1M above and anything below). Dragic, Afflalo, Ginobilli, Lin, Lowry, Lawson, Millsap, and Ellis come to mind after some thinking (Ginobilli and Lin might be more considered third options though). The bottom line is there aren't many. IF you include rookie contracts things really open up but that is kind of cheating in this situation..... and also explains the premium currently on draft picks.

            Your post did kind of open my eyes to a new perspective/line of thinking though so thank you for that.

            GLF wrote: View Post
            I couldn't agree more with both Matt52 and Craig. You both make great points. Demar definitely needs to calm down on the amount BAD long twos he takes, because he does take some good ones as well. If he was more efficient he would be All NBA. But that's the thing. ALL NBA is on the Lebron and Durant level and he isn't getting paid like that. No player is perfect except for those guys and his flaw is the long two. I wouldn't fault him so hard for that. I also think some of that blame goes to the coach. It's how he's being used. If we had a really good offensive coach I bet you he would get better shots in the offense and look better. Look how bad Rudy looked here and how good he looks on Sac. A good bit of that was on Rudy but I also don't think Casey used him correctly. I remember when Jay Triano was here I loved the way Demar was being used at the time. He took a lot of long twos but it was the good kind. Jay is a really good offensive coach. If we still had Jay here as an assistant we would be so much better offensively I feel.
            Bold 1: When I say he'd be All-NBA I should probably say 3rd Team. Essentially I think he can be top 3-4-5 at his position in the league and that will require a lot of team success by the Raptors to get the nod. There is also a big leap from an efficient DeRozan to LeBron and Durant. I don't think DeRozan being efficient puts him on their level - not even close really. DeRozan has just reached the status of average to slightly above average in rebounding, defense, and assisting. Those guys also put up 3x the WS/48 as DeMar so them paid 2x as much is quite a bargain relatively speaking.

            Bold 2: Agree but you can't fault Casey for him pulling up for a long contested 2 with a defender all over him with 15 seconds on the shot clock.

            Bold 3: Raptors have not made huge gains statistically this season on offense. Last year they were 16th in PPG (97.2) and 13th in ORtg (105.9). This year they are 17th in PPG (99.7 - points are up this season league wide) and 11th in ORtg (107.1). Both seasons they have been 24th in pace. So while the gains aren't huge statistically I notice a big difference watching the games and I credit that to Nurse/Bayno. I think Masai did a good thing gutting the coaching staff.

            Comment


            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              But with that said I think he deserves to be an all-star, no question, but Lowry no question is MVP of this team. Politics and popularity are as ever present in the NBA as elsewhere in life.

              Here is the reality for me: I hate his game.... Not as much as in previous seasons but still do hate parts of his game. I hate long 2s, I hate an abundance of ISO, I hate my turn your turn, I hate shying away from the dirty work (but he has improved here), I hate watching him routinely guard other teams weaker wings. But I am encouraged by growth in his game such as ability to find others, getting on the glass, no longer an eye sore on D, well, usually.
              Ya Lowry is the clear MVP of the Raptors, if he didn't elevate his play after the Gay trade we would be talking a lot more about Wiggins VS Embiid than anything else

              I think I'm just going to adopt your summation of why I think he is a bad player, and that is because I also HATE his game. I hate watching him on D and I hate how he operates on the offensive end. I could provide video evidence for why, but that would probably not be a good idea since it shows how DD isn't that good in my opinion, which doesn't coincide with everyone else's opinion on here.

              special1 wrote: View Post
              Now you see why i called these guys out???

              OldSkoolnotcool and his friends (you know who they are) have been "hating" on Demar for a while now... I laugh when I read some of their comments....

              I just ignore them now....They were proven wrong, ate crow and now a few are still trying to validate their previous opinions. MEH

              Enjoy NBA all-star weekend everyone.
              Posts like this is why I get worked up and try and bring people down to Earth. We haven't been proven wrong, at least by you guys on here anyways. (we've been proven wrong by DD, even if we still have issues with his play)

              Honestly you have the intelligence level of a cricket so I shouldn't get myself worked up about anything you say anyhow. MB

              YoungGunRaptor wrote: View Post
              Im happy with this, and it feels good to be a Raptors fan right now. I just wish all of us on Raptors Republic could show some as well.
              It does, doesn't it. I enjoy it.

              I just think the best way for us to keep getting better does not involve certain players...and we all want the Raps to get better

              Craig wrote: View Post
              Meh, guys using terms like "inefficient volume shooter".... whatever. Someone is gonna take a lot of shots on every team, and every team has a guy that misses a bunch....
              Umm...I hate the cop-out statement that "someone has to take a lot of shots on every team". No, they don't.

              Truth be told though is that the only teams to have only 2 players who have more than 10 FGA a game are the Raptors, Spurs, Nuggets and Mavs.

              Of the 4 teams:

              Toronto has the highest. DD at 18.2 FGA
              Spurs have Duncan at 14
              Nuggets have Lawson at 13.5
              Dallas has Dirk at 15.9
              ------
              Toronto only has 1 player averaging 9 FGA's or more (9.0)
              Spurs have 2 (9.4, 9.3)
              Nuggets have 2 (9.8, 9.4)
              Dallas has 3 (9.6, 9.6, 9.5)
              ------
              Toronto's next highest is Lowry at 12.3
              Spurs have Parker at 12.6
              Nuggets have Chandler at 12.2
              Mavs have Ellis at 15.4


              So basically DD is the only one taking a lot of shots. This would make it seem like he is the only one scoring, but really that's because he is the only one shooting. (don't take this as an absolute, obviously other ppl shoot too). We are the only team in the NBA with this kind of disparity of shot distribution where it is one guy jacking it up. It's disgraceful basketball to watch.

              Every other team in the league has at least three, with the average being 4 players with 10 or more FGA and the max being 5

              Basically what I am trying to say is we need to spread around the shots some more, it will improve our offense. DD needs to shoot less if we are to get better.

              planetmars wrote: View Post
              DeRozan has been playing really well this year no question (well at least since the Gay trade).. what I feel is that he's not a great #1 option.. not for a championship caliber team. He's not paid as a superstar so he doesn't have to be a great #1 option.. but can he be a great #2 or #3 option?

              That's a question that we may not be able to answer, not with this roster. His strength is on the offensive side so his usage rate needs to be fairly high. That's a concern for me. If he is asked not to be the primary scorer would he be able to modify his game to be the second banana? With his efficiency being a problem I wonder if it would still be a problem if someone else took the lead. DD played fairly poorly with Gay next to him so maybe that's a sign (although Gay and DD play a very similar game and so that might have something to do with it too). Although he played fairly poorly with Bargnani when he was the lead (although that's Bargnani).
              There are a lot of good questions in here. We have seen him as a number 2 and he was awful. But he isn't good enough to be a number 1 either...

              golden wrote: View Post
              Kevin Durant
              Lebron James
              Kevin Love
              Blake Griffin
              Steph Curry
              Paul George
              Carmelo Anthony
              Lamarcus Aldridge
              Demar Derozan
              Kyrie Irving
              See the MVP award is a fickle thing...it isn't as clear cut as deciding a scoring title, and it relies on how important the player is to the team. For example, OKC lost Westbrook and everybody expected them to struggle, but then Durant put the team on his back and has carried them, hitting game winners and doing everything he can to win games. That is the definition of an MVP. I don't think Love, Anthony or Irving should be on this list. Neither of their teams are very good, and they haven't been able to elevate their teams, so not MVP in my opinion.

              As for DD, Lowry is our clear cut MVP...if Lowry is not on that list, DD is somewhere below him without a doubt. This is a relative and subjective list.

              Also. The Raptors still don't have a great record, if we were in the West, we wouldn't even be in the playoffs, so I can't really see any of our players being chosen over anyone on one of those West teams. We just aren't that good YET...

              Comment


              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                No one, absolutely no one question DeRozan's improvements over his 5 years in the league. No one.

                I don't think anyone can question his work ethic or desire to be great either. I certainly won't and never have.

                I recall typing last summer if he could become average in assists, defense, and rebounding that would certainly quiet my criticism of one dimensional - guess what? He's done that. No more complaints.


                However, the criticism I have that remains is his inefficiency and his shot selection. The inefficiency is a reality. I'm going to provide the links, you can go look yourself. You can also watch the games and look at the number of contested long 2s with plenty of time on the shot clock.

                http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...hooting-guards
                http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...tingEfficiency
                http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players...esc&player_ids[]=1287&player_ids[]=128&player_ids[]=215&player_ids[]=158&player_ids[]=211&player_ids[]=1309&player_ids[]=318&player_ids[]=63&player_ids[]=243&player_ids[]=167&player_ids[]=229&player_ids[]=38&player_ids[]=3&player_ids[]=348&player_ids[]=228&player_ids[]=185&player_ids[]=470&player_ids[]=273&player_ids[]=163&player_ids[]=113&player_ids[]=334&player_ids[]=116&player_ids[]=92&player_ids[]=310&season=2013&sort=per48_field_goal_attempts&utf8=%E2%9C%93#shooting[/url]
                http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players...%93&player_ids[]=318&season=2013

                His FG%, 3pt%, eFG%, TS%, adjFG%, and PPS are all average to pretty bad. It really stands out when you consider he takes 18.2 field goal attempts per game - that is first in the league for SGs with Beal 2nd at 16.1 attempts.


                His shot selection is the height of inefficiency and, besides inconsistent defensive effort, this is what my only gripe against DeRozan is. He takes about 35% of his shots from 16-24 feet and it is his #1 most frequent shot type. Harden, as an example, takes 16-24 ft shots as his 3rd most frequent shot (85 attempts on year compared to 82 attempts for 8-16ft shots) which is about 12% of his shot attempts. That means that 75% of Hardens shots are a 3 or within 8 feet. (you can play around with different players at stats.nba.com to get an idea of their shot totals by selecting player and then selecting shooting in the first field).

                There is nothing wrong with taking a long 2. My gripe is when he takes them. Receive a pass with the shot clock running down? Sure take it. Get the ball off good team movement and you're wide open? Sure take it. However take it with over half the shot clock remaining and a man in your face? NO! Hold the ball for 5 seconds, then take 5-6 dribbles, and then take a long 2? NO!



                Call me a hater, call me what you will. But I hate long 2s. It is boring, lazy, selfish basketball, in my opinion. Anyone can get take a long 2 at any time.... and there is a reason for that.

                This brings me to what I put in originally at the start of this post. DeRozan still makes poor decisions on shot attempts (to be fair this is on Casey as well) despite his improvements this year. However, just imagine if he took more post ups, corner 3s, and drives to the basket instead of contested long 2s with time on the shot clock? He would be All-NBA - no joke. If he can consistently put up the 4-5 rebounds and 4-5 assists while increasing his efficiency, in particular his PPS, he is going to be All-NBA.


                So that is what I pray he and the coaches finally figure out. All the other criticisms are out the window. Inefficiency, which is directly related to consistency and decision making, is all that remains.

                There has been lots of talk that he is not a first scoring option. You know what? I'd rethink that. I think he can be a legit #1 scoring option. He just needs to redistribute his shots and improve his decisions with the ball.
                Nailed it!
                You come at the King, you best not miss.

                Comment


                • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post

                  So basically DD is the only one taking a lot of shots.


                  What point are you making exactly?

                  fuck..whatever...

                  DD is 6th in FG attempted, and tenth in fg made. Big fucking deal. Aside from Lowry, Toronto has zero offensive talent. there are a few guys, ross and patterson that come to mind, that can hit shots...but really, they struggle being the guy.

                  every team will designate a guy to be a volume guy. Your PG CANNOT be that guy, and NOBODY else on that team s qualified. its pretty fucking clear that you aren't willing to consider this, but dame Old school, try to.

                  And tell me my posts are cop outs, honestly, don't bother. the post you quoted is so fucking bang on it isn't funny, sure, it seem simple, but thee truth is, it IS simple.

                  Here's a great question for you, seeing as youre so cocksure DD is a piece of shit and needs to go. Who ya replacing him with at 9 million that brings what he does? And to save time dont waste time with pipe dreams, keep it within the realm of reality.... this isn't fantasy basketball.

                  Comment


                  • this thread...yawn. Im out.

                    Comment


                    • Craig wrote: View Post
                      What point are you making exactly?

                      fuck..whatever...

                      DD is 6th in FG attempted, and tenth in fg made. Big fucking deal. Aside from Lowry, Toronto has zero offensive talent. there are a few guys, ross and patterson that come to mind, that can hit shots...but really, they struggle being the guy.

                      every team will designate a guy to be a volume guy. Your PG CANNOT be that guy, and NOBODY else on that team s qualified. its pretty fucking clear that you aren't willing to consider this, but dame Old school, try to.

                      And tell me my posts are cop outs, honestly, don't bother. the post you quoted is so fucking bang on it isn't funny, sure, it seem simple, but thee truth is, it IS simple.

                      Here's a great question for you, seeing as youre so cocksure DD is a piece of shit and needs to go. Who ya replacing him with at 9 million that brings what he does? And to save time dont waste time with pipe dreams, keep it within the realm of reality.... this isn't fantasy basketball.
                      If you would read what I post:

                      OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                      Basically what I am trying to say is we need to spread around the shots some more, it will improve our offense. DD needs to shoot less if we are to get better.
                      "Someone needs to take the shots" is idiotic and stupid. There are 2 kinds of shots. Good and Bad. You take the good ones, no matter which player it is that is taking them. End of story, its that simple



                      "Cocksure DD is a piece of shit". Well if you've read my posts and not just assumed that everything I say/do on this site is to undermine DD you would know that isn't true. I have had supportive comments and liked posts that were true about how much DD has improved.

                      "brings what he does". Well I don't really want anybody who does what he does on the team at any price I guess, so I would have to go with nobody. What this team needs is a legit SF who has good size and quick, is a knock down 3 point shooter and a great defender at any price that is reasonable. (also to pair with a dominant low post presence/back to the basket player)

                      Comment


                      • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                        If you would read what I post:



                        idiotic and stupid.
                        Please, tell me more about how idiotic and stupid I am.

                        hahaha

                        nice talk bud, ready that sticky mango posted ok.

                        Comment


                        • Craig wrote: View Post
                          Please, tell me more about how idiotic and stupid I am.
                          Well since you asked nicely....




                          Honestly though what you said makes no logical sense "someone has to take shots"

                          Hooray...way to break down the game for me!! Did not know that!!

                          Comment


                          • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                            Well since you asked nicely....




                            Honestly though what you said makes no logical sense "someone has to take shots"

                            Hooray...way to break down the game for me!! Did not know that!!
                            This refutes the argument you made about the Raptors not needing anyone to take on the scoring load. Through the 52 games this season, no one has shown consistency on the scoring end. I promise you that no one else on this team would make the same number of buckets that Demar does if they were given that number of opportunities. There is no argument to be made in spreading the shots around more, either. Putting up 22 ppg is a respectable feat, and to be winning games on top of that only amplifies Derozans importance to this team, specifically in his ability to score. It also shows consistency and the ability to play through the pressures of being the main option on a team. Last year, James Harden took on the rockets scoring load and shot a % similar to what DD is shooting this year, and we are on track to win a similar number of games to last year's Houston team: 45-37.

                            If Demar played like a 2nd option, we would be doing much worse, and we would likely see a losing Raptors team with a broken and struggling Derozan having blatant displays of inconsistency, such as during the lockout season.

                            So, no shots, no victory. No aggressive nature, no pressure on opposing defences. No consistency, no all star for the raps this year.
                            I know this may be a bit controversial but I think the Raptors have proven that they're the best team in the NBA from Canada
                            -random Facebook user. 2016

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                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              However, the criticism I have that remains is his inefficiency and his shot selection. The inefficiency is a reality. I'm going to provide the links, you can go look yourself. You can also watch the games and look at the number of contested long 2s with plenty of time on the shot clock.
                              ]
                              Matt, overall nice post, but I think you are over-valuing the idea of 'shooting' and under-valuing what is important - scoring. The purpose of basketball is to score and Demar does that at much better than league average efficiency (ORTG 109 vs. 105), because he gets to the FT line. Combine that with the fact that his USG% is elite (28.3% vs. 20%), and as a first option, this is extremely impressive. As a 'scorer', Demar is in elite company already, and that's all that matters. In fact, on this Raptors lineup, with Ross, Amir and JV all being < 20% USG guys, the Raps would look pathetic if not for Demar's vastly improved elite-level 'scoring' efficiency. If nothing else, those long 2's give Amir and JV the opportunity to do what they do well - which is offensive rebounds. LOL. And to say nothing of Demar helping to balance the second unit, especially when GV and Hayes are out there.

                              Comment


                              • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                                Well since you asked nicely....




                                Honestly though what you said makes no logical sense "someone has to take shots"

                                Hooray...way to break down the game for me!! Did not know that!!
                                Well, actually Craig is absolutely right about that. Dean Oliver had a great breakdown of this concept in his book 'Basketball on Paper', which is one of the earliest publications on advanced stats for basketball. The key here is USG. When you have multiple guys on the court who can't handle average USG (20%) at league average efficiency (105 ORTG), then you are at a disadvantage. This is where high USG players are extremely valuable. The Raps have 3 starters (JV, Amir & Ross) at below 20% USG and Lowry is right at 20%. Those guys just aren't skilled enough yet to increase their usage and maintain league average efficiency. So, that's where DD, taking those tough shots, while still getting a good shot helps out the team so much. Imagine Amir or JV having to create offense or take 3's at the end of the clock. And DD helps out the bench even more, especially when Hayes (11% USG) is out there. So, yeah, somebody does have to take those shots.

                                I wish I could find the link to Basketball on Paper and the chapter on USG called ... the Problem with Scorers. It's a fantastic read and must-read for anybody whose into advanced stats.

                                EDIT: Here's the link (you might have to click next when the Google book comes up)
                                http://books.google.ca/books?id=Xh2i...scorers&f=true
                                Last edited by golden; Tue Feb 18, 2014, 12:06 AM.

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